the truth about electric cars

[Luckypants]

4 hours ago, Paws4Thot said:

 

ATM Ingurlundshire's response to generating plant built in, say, Scotland, is to charge a "being a long way from Larndarn premium" on that power.

Yes but charge the premium to those areas where the power is generated, NOT Londoners. Apologies if that is what you meant.

[Ootohere]

Still current news now.  The story goes on of the big boy,s stealing the dinner money.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCrone_report

 

2005

https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4303750.stm

 

http://thenational.scot/politics/24145789.top-renewables-firm-ceo-scotlands-energy-story-tragedy

 

[Paws4Thot]

1 hour ago, Luckypants said:

Yes but charge the premium to those areas where the power is generated, NOT Londoners. Apologies if that is what you meant.

Cheers for the disambiguation.

[Graham Butcher]

29 minutes ago, Rooted said:

Still current news now.  The story goes on of the big boy,s stealing the dinner money.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCrone_report

 

2005

https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4303750.stm

 

http://thenational.scot/politics/24145789.top-renewables-firm-ceo-scotlands-energy-story-tragedy

 

Why am I not surprised that it was kept secret from the public, it's all about profit at the end of the day. 

[Ootohere]

It was about the Union.   That of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.  Scotland would have been allowed to go 50 plus years ago if a barren land in the north with no resources and just someplace to site the Nuclear Deterrent and do Nuclear trials which was really generating weapon grades materials and electricity.  

[Graham Butcher]

1 hour ago, Rooted said:

It was about the Union.   That of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.  Scotland would have been allowed to go 50 plus years ago if a barren land in the north with no resources and just someplace to site the Nuclear Deterrent and do Nuclear trials which was really generating weapon grades materials and electricity.  

Hmm, I used to be a regular visitor to AWE at Aldermaston and Foulness and used to get a police escort everywhere on site, I wonder if I ever glowed in the dark when I got home.

Edited 27 February by Graham Butcher

[Ootohere]

It has done no harm it seems, maybe preserved you.    I do wish they would clear up the mess in Scotland and not just Dounrey.    There are the other sites as well as at Rosyth were they think tying Submarines up to store the reactors is simply clever.    Generations for many many decades are paying to clean up from a time oldies got plenty cheap energy.  

[Graham Butcher]

1 hour ago, Rooted said:

It has done no harm it seems, maybe preserved you.    I do wish they would clear up the mess in Scotland and not just Dounrey.    There are the other sites as well as at Rosyth were they think tying Submarines up to store the reactors is simply clever.    Generations for many many decades are paying to clean up from a time oldies got plenty cheap energy.  

Doh! Why do I feel like Homer Simpson then  This is a problem though with nuclear energy, what do you do with the spent fuel rods and the contaminated reactors and how do we know that it will be safe in the future, oh yes, that's right put our trust and faith in the politicians with all the answers  

Edited 27 February by Graham Butcher

[Graham Butcher]

I voiced my concerns about the practise of some electric cars relying on the car actually having power left in the battery and the circuitry still being intact, i.e., no blown fuses or wiring issues in order to open the car doors from inside, and I guess the same would apply from outside, especially in an emergency situation. Now it seems that this is a problem currently more to do with Tesla's, but as some will recall that the Mac Master also got locked inside his Porsche Taycan, and some members berated him at the time, and saying it was clickbait 🙄.

 

Well, guess what it wasn't, it was a fact and the Tesla has been called out for this before and people have been trapped inside burning cars and have only been rescued by others breaking the windows and the people climbing out through them. Then it has also been reported and shown on some YT channels that there is in fact on the Tesla's and Taycans, 2 door releases on the front doors, a manual one (tucked away) and a press button, just like in that Rolls Royce video, pressing the button releases the door, the same for the rear passengers in a Tesla, BUT there is not a manual release.

 

This is a classic case of style over substance, why not just have the same as other cars have, a simple system, that can operate the doors normally, even if locked, the internal door handles/levers will unlock and open the doors allowing for easy escape in an emergency situation.

 

It now turns out that there are in some rear doors on Tesla's but not all and in all cases it involves removing bits of the car to gain access to then, when fitted. Less than ideal, I think you'll agree, especially when you may have your children in the back or elderly parents etc, or maybe someone who is not even familiar with the car. In fact on one model, you have to remove the entire door card, this is something you cannot do when the door is shut, go figure??

 

This video explains more and actually shows you where these are. Don't shoot the messenger, but if nobody has been killed in cars fitted with this type of system, then it can only be a matter of time.

 

 

Edited 27 February by Graham Butcher

[Ootohere]

It is an issue as is getting trapped in any vehicle in flood water.  Life is one big gamble from the time you are born until you die and nobody knows when that might happen.    Rootin shootin Vladimir Putin or any other nutter with the say so might just start WW3.   More than the nuclear option though I think it will be shutting down the electricity, communication and utilities that will be the way terrorists do it.      My Jupiter 5 (Jawa 350 2 stroke similar)  sidecar outfit that could run on transmission fluids and aviation fuel is the type of vehicle it will be good to have. 

[Graham Butcher]

42 minutes ago, Rooted said:

It is an issue as is getting trapped in any vehicle in flood water.  Life is one big gamble from the time you are born until you die and nobody knows when that might happen.    Rootin shootin Vladimir Putin or any other nutter with the say so might just start WW3.   More than the nuclear option though I think it will be shutting down the electricity, communication and utilities that will be the way terrorists do it.      My Jupiter 5 (Jawa 350 2 stroke similar)  sidecar outfit that could run on transmission fluids and aviation fuel is the type of vehicle it will be good to have. 

Yes I always thought that with electric becoming the norm, anyone wanting to do anything like that, only need to knock out the grid and everything would soon grind to a halt. 

 

As to the car doors, it should have been common sense to ensure that the doors can always be opened. And a legal requirement. 

Edited 27 February by Graham Butcher

[wyx087]

3 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Less than ideal, I think you'll agree, especially when you may have your children in the back or elderly parents etc, or maybe someone who is not even familiar with the car. In fact on one model, you have to remove the entire door card, this is something you cannot do when the door is shut, go figure??

Interesting you bought up children. What are your thoughts about every single cars with child safety lock on the rear door, that parents are advised to use?

 

If it really troubles you, you can easily replace those emergency access with things like these, a single pull action will open the door.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mechanical-Shockproof-Resistant-Replacement-Release/dp/B0C7BMVR9P/

 

I had driven a 2024 Lexus NX a few weeks ago. It also has electronic door release. But its manual release is a lot more obvious:

https://mag.lexus.co.uk/e-latch-system/

 

 

Actually, thinking about it, I'll order one of those replacement emergency release things for my MY. Just in case, because it's 2022 car, harder to access the emergency release.

 

Edited 27 February by wyx087

[Graham Butcher]

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

Interesting you bought up children. What are your thoughts about every single cars with child safety lock on the rear door, that parents are advised to use?

 

If it really troubles you, you can easily replace those emergency access with things like these, a single pull action will open the door.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mechanical-Shockproof-Resistant-Replacement-Release/dp/B0C7BMVR9P/

 

I had driven a 2024 Lexus NX a few weeks ago. It also has electronic door release. But its manual release is a lot more obvious:

https://mag.lexus.co.uk/e-latch-system/

 

 

Actually, thinking about it, I'll order one of those replacement emergency release things for my MY. Just in case, because it's 2022 car, harder to access the emergency release.

 

Yes I have brought up children, 4 of them and I have never felt the need to use the special locks you mention as my children were brought up to know right from wrong. In any case, correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect going by reports that others had to smash windows in order to get people out of the front seats of these cars, it does rather suggest that if the electrics fail, that the doors cannot be opened from the outside either? Surely the door handle would be the first thing that people would be reaching for instinctively or is it that the flush handles simply confuse people, and they don't understand how to operate them? If that's the case, then that is another example of style over substance as time is being wasted trying to rescue people because the door handles don't operate in the normal fashion?

 

There are also ICE cars that also have odd handles that would confuse people, like some of the TVR's have a button to press under the door mirror, Alfa Romeo 156 has the rear door handle hidden, all of which is in my view dangerous. 

 

Edit, the new Range Rovers is another one with the flush handles that pop out when you touch the sensor in the handle.

 

 

Edited 27 February by Graham Butcher

[wyx087]

Handy explainer of V2G, V2H and V2L, and different ways of achieving it. Video also touches on why it's been taking so long for V2G to be common.

 

Great to see VW ID Buzz will get V2G via software update.

 

 

Personally, I thin V2H will come before V2G. It removes the grid operator compatibility barrier mentioned in the video. All that's needed is a G99 to DNO and suitable hardware. Software update can come later to receive grid operator needs and become V2G.

[Graham Butcher]

57 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Handy explainer of V2G, V2H and V2L, and different ways of achieving it. Video also touches on why it's been taking so long for V2G to be common.

 

Great to see VW ID Buzz will get V2G via software update.

 

 

Personally, I thin V2H will come before V2G. It removes the grid operator compatibility barrier mentioned in the video. All that's needed is a G99 to DNO and suitable hardware. Software update can come later to receive grid operator needs and become V2G.

What! Do you mean to tell me that all that silly nonsense the other day was all about something that has not happened yet. If so then it strengthens my point that ICE drivers view an EV as nothing more then just another car, full stop. 

[wyx087]

8 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

What! Do you mean to tell me that all that silly nonsense the other day was all about something that has not happened yet. If so then it strengthens my point that ICE drivers view an EV as nothing more then just another car, full stop. 

As you've previously said, (paraphrasing, can't remember exact words) truth in one person's perspective is another's untruth. Unfortunately your unfriendly attitude towards this very important tech speaks volume about your attitude towards EV's, regardless of what you pretend with words. 

 

Batteries in EV is likely the biggest any individual will ever own with biggest embedded carbon emission due to production, remembering most cars are parked 90% of the time, we should try our best to make full use of it. It's a change in mentality that cars are no longer just transport. 

 

This V2G/V2H thing is coming to the mass market, delayed by CCS mandate. V2H capability for Leaf is here from 2013, and small scale V2G trials was done in 2018: 

https://company.ovo.com/nissan-and-ovo-announce-a-new-collaboration-to-accelerate-the-adoption-of-home-battery-storage-in-the-uk/

Concluded it's got financial benefits for the driver: 

https://www.edie.net/worlds-largest-v2g-trial-finds-that-ev-drivers-could-cut-725-off-electricity-bills/

Larger scale V2H for Leaf has been rolled out in last year. I'm currently using it. So it is happening right now. 

 

[Graham Butcher]

49 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

As you've previously said, (paraphrasing, can't remember exact words) truth in one person's perspective is another's untruth. Unfortunately your unfriendly attitude towards this very important tech speaks volume about your attitude towards EV's, regardless of what you pretend with words. 

 

Batteries in EV is likely the biggest any individual will ever own with biggest embedded carbon emission due to production, remembering most cars are parked 90% of the time, we should try our best to make full use of it. It's a change in mentality that cars are no longer just transport. 

 

This V2G/V2H thing is coming to the mass market, delayed by CCS mandate. V2H capability for Leaf is here from 2013, and small scale V2G trials was done in 2018: 

https://company.ovo.com/nissan-and-ovo-announce-a-new-collaboration-to-accelerate-the-adoption-of-home-battery-storage-in-the-uk/

Concluded it's got financial benefits for the driver: 

https://www.edie.net/worlds-largest-v2g-trial-finds-that-ev-drivers-could-cut-725-off-electricity-bills/

Larger scale V2H for Leaf has been rolled out in last year. I'm currently using it. So it is happening right now. 

 

It's very important to you because you are very clued-up on this stuff, however I suggest that you are not typical of the average person who will not be aware of this stuff. 

 

Hence, why I say to the average driver and this is particularly true for the average ICE driver, who is facing the prospect that soon their only option of a new car is going to be electric. 

 

All of this V2H and V2G is also of course is dependent on having the ability to home charge, which has already been extensively covered in this thread. You have also, begrudgingly, acknowledged that this is a fact for millions of people, so those features are both meaning and worthless to them, thus, like I have many times pointed out, to them an EV is just a mode of transport. 

 

You are in a privileged position, and you don't appreciate that because of it, you can access these things and take it for granted, while you're eating cake, others just have bread.

 

Please put yourself in a less privileged person's shoes and look at things through their eyes and accept that is the position they are in and can do very little about it. 

 

Also, please stop this point scoring all time it is dragging this whole thread into areas it does need to go to. 

 

PS. just watched that video you posted, and it would also need for existing cars to have extensive and expensive upgrades, and the same in the house, so thats an added cost that not everybody can afford.

Edited 28 February by Graham Butcher

[Winston_Woof]

39 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

 

Batteries in EV is likely the biggest any individual will ever own with biggest embedded carbon emission due to production, remembering most cars are parked 90% of the time, we should try our best to make full use of it. It's a change in mentality that cars are no longer just transport. 

 

 

However *IF* there is a technology sea change and Hydrogen Fuel Celled vehicles become more prevalent, then it is entirely possible that todays BEVs needing "antiquated" fixed charging points and large capacity batteries  will become irrelevant.

BEVs are not the only future

[wyx087]

17 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Hence why I say to the average driver and this is particularly true fir the average ICE driver, who is facing the prospect that soon their only option of a new car is going to be electric. 

 

All of this V2H and V2G also of course is dependant on having the ability to Home charge, which has already been extensively covered in this thread. You have also, begrudgingly acknowledged this is a fact for millions of people so those features are both meaning and worthless to them, thus, like I have many times pointed out, to them an EV is just a mode of transport. 

I've covered this previously. We are still early days for mass roll out of destination charging. Just like Intelligent Octopus Go tariff, the staggering cost of public charging can be solved with smart charging for incompatible cars and V2G for compatible cars. Everyone need to get into the habit of plugging it in when parked. 

 

Again, I've said this previously. Whinging about problems today for a ban that might happen in 10 years time only for new cars is completely pointless. We need to be forward looking, tech in early adopter's hands today will become normal given enough financial benefits. Ability to utilise more cheap, clean renewables is more than enough push. 

 

Just now, Winston_Woof said:

However *IF* there is a technology sea change and Hydrogen Fuel Celled vehicles become more prevalent, then it is entirely possible that todays BEVs needing "antiquated" fixed charging points and large capacity batteries  will become irrelevant.

BEVs are not the only future

"IF" indeed. Although got to remember until we have vastly excessive renewable production, the inefficiency with hydrogen may be a big stumbling block. By which time, plugging in might be normal part of parking up in everyone's minds. 

 

10 kWh of electricity becomes around 4 kWh motive energy, around 5 kWh back to the grid for hydrogen fuel cell

10 kWh of electricity becomes around 8 kWh of motive energy, slightly more back to the grid using a battery. 

Given the number of cars on the road, that's a huge amount of potential highly efficient storage. 

[Graham Butcher]

1 minute ago, wyx087 said:

I've covered this previously. We are still early days for mass roll out of destination charging. Just like Intelligent Octopus Go tariff, the staggering cost of public charging can be solved with smart charging for incompatible cars and V2G for compatible cars. Everyone need to get into the habit of plugging it in when parked. 

 

Again, I've said this previously. Whinging about problems today for a ban that might happen in 10 years time only for new cars is completely pointless. We need to be forward looking, tech in early adopter's hands today will become normal given enough financial benefits. Ability to utilise more cheap, clean renewables is more than enough push. 

 

"IF" indeed. Although got to remember until we have vastly excessive renewable production, the inefficiency with hydrogen may be a big stumbling block. By which time, plugging in might be normal part of parking up in everyone's minds. 

 

10 kWh of electricity becomes around 4 kWh motive energy, around 5 kWh back to the grid for hydrogen fuel cell

10 kWh of electricity becomes around 8 kWh of motive energy, slightly more back to the grid using a battery. 

Given the number of cars on the road, that's a huge amount of potential highly efficient storage. 

Yes and one day mankind might also colonise the moon which was talked about many years ago when man first stepped foot on the moon's surface in 1969 and 55 years later we are no further forward on that front. For once, lets concentrate on what is happening right now for the billions of people living in the real world and not in a bubble.

[Winston_Woof]

2 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

"IF" indeed. Although got to remember until we have vastly excessive renewable production, the inefficiency with hydrogen may be a big stumbling block. By which time, plugging in might be normal part of parking up in everyone's minds. 

 

Granted however could the other benefits of hydrogen ,ie the ability to refuel in a few minutes for another 4-500 miles of range, the ability to be dispensed from the same locations that current hydrocarbon based fuels are dispensed from and refilled using a tanker system, no requirement for home chargers (which we all agree are never going to be available for everyone) , offset some of the current disadvantages of production?
 

[Graham Butcher]

3 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

Granted however could the other benefits of hydrogen ,ie the ability to refuel in a few minutes for another 4-500 miles of range, the ability to be dispensed from the same locations that current hydrocarbon based fuels are dispensed from and refilled using a tanker system, no requirement for home chargers (which we all agree are never going to be available for everyone) , offset some of the current disadvantages of production?
 

Not to mention also, the massive amount of work that needs to be done to the grid to enable the capacity and connections to the charging stations, when as you rightly point out, we already have the filling stations there serving liquid fuel.

[wyx087]

50 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Yes and one day mankind might also colonise the moon which was talked about many years ago when man first stepped foot on the moon's surface in 1969 and 55 years later we are no further forward on that front. For once, lets concentrate on what is happening right now for the billions of people living in the real world and not in a bubble.

In case you weren't aware: 

https://www.reuters.com/technology/space/us-achieves-first-moon-landing-half-century-with-private-spacecraft-2024-02-23/

 

Moon exploration was paused for 50 years because there wasn't much financial incentive. Again, as long as there's enough financial incentive, people can and will do the impossible. With V2G, there is huge amount of financial incentive (cheaper energy, not government grant). 

 

50 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

Granted however could the other benefits of hydrogen ,ie the ability to refuel in a few minutes for another 4-500 miles of range, the ability to be dispensed from the same locations that current hydrocarbon based fuels are dispensed from and refilled using a tanker system, no requirement for home chargers (which we all agree are never going to be available for everyone) , offset some of the current disadvantages of production?
 

Indeed there is benefit with the range and same usage model as petrol/diesel. 

 

But from technical adoption point of view, I fear the fuel (green hydrogen) would be prohibitively expensive. Even more expensive if transported or grid connection need to be upgraded to generate hydrogen on-site. 

 

One thing I agree very much though, the embedded carbon emission in battery production needs looking at. We should be finding ways to reduce the battery size. Range extender makes a lot of sense, both for reducing battery size requirement and in allowing  wider adoption of electric propulsion, petrol/diesel now, hydrogen fuel cell in the future. 

[wyx087]

Regarding earlier talk about obsolescence: 

 

Nissan is shutting down 2015 and earlier car remote features: https://www.speakev.com/threads/any-way-of-activating-pre-heat-now-the-app-is-being-disconnected.183461/post-3574625

😞 

 

Suggested solution is to buy OVMS. Open Vehicle Monitoring System | Open Vehicles for £200. 

 

This kind of service shutdown is prevalent in smart home devices, another of my hobby. But I have gotten away with it try to only use local controllable devices via Home Assistant (as I say, people always finds a way). OVMS looks like it's similar idea. 

[J.R.]

13 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Handy explainer of V2G, V2H and V2L, and different ways of achieving it. Video also touches on why it's been taking so long for V2G to be common.

 

Great to see VW ID Buzz will get V2G via software update.

 

 

Personally, I thin V2H will come before V2G.  All that's needed is a G99 to DNO and suitable hardware. Software update can come later to receive grid operator needs and become V2G.

 

Not all that is needed, fluency in 3 letter acronyms is essential to have even the slightest clue what the above means.

 

3 hours ago, wyx087 said:

This V2G/V2H thing is coming to the mass market, delayed by CCS mandate. V2H capability for Leaf is here from 2013, and small scale V2G trials was done in 2018: 

 

Any chance of a glossary of terms?

 

I am guessing that V2G is voltage to grid? and V2H is voltage to home? Or is V for vehicle?

 

As for the rest, no idea!