The RAC was not there were they when the man was filming smoke.

 

The one that attended me asked why i had the bonnet open and i told him so that those circling the charger would see i was maybe having an issue, and so he might spot me since neither the Call Center or him seemed to know the location of the chargers even with the post code.

 

You need the Parking Brake off if you are going to lift the front and put it on a dolly.

You need to know when cars are FWD, or RWD or AWD and not all do.

There are special trucks with a remote vehicle that come out and lift RWD BMW i3,s etc which the wheels locked and drive them onto the recovery truck.

 

I watched one used to recover a Nissan Leaf that they would not go in because of the mould in it from being parked a year in a council car park during Covid lockdows , flat battery and going to be scrapped as a health hazard.

 

 

 

 

Edited 6 October, 20232 yr by toot

33 minutes ago, toot said:

The RAC was not there were they when the man was filming smoke.

 

The one that attended me asked why i had the bonnet open and i told him so that those circling the charger would see i was maybe having an issue, and so he might spot me since neither the Call Center or him seemed to know the location of the chargers even with the post code.

 

You need the Parking Brake off if you are going to lift the front and put it on a dolly.

You need to know when cars are FWD, or RWD or AWD and not all do.

There are special trucks with a remote vehicle that come out and lift RWD BMW i3,s etc which the wheels locked and drive them onto the recovery truck.

 

I watched one used to recover a Nissan Leaf that they would not go in because of the mould in it from being parked a year in a council car park during Covid lockdows , flat battery and going to be scrapped as a health hazard.

 

 

 

 

Wow, what a performance, I doubt that there are many of those machines in the UK at the moment. Did you notice that the McMaster was allegedly locked inside his Taycan. His 12V battery was flat, but it seemed that it enough power to let him unlock and enter, but then would let him start or even exit the car, so I presume that the Taycan does not have traditional door handles to open the door from inside but a push button. Strange, but I'd have thought it would have been illegal to make a car that became a potential death trap like that?

@wyx087 Seeing as you are a Tesla owner, perhaps you could answer this question, is it true that everything such as door, windows etc is electrically operated and there is no manual method of easily opening a door to get in or out of a Tesla? I know that the McMaster claimed to have been trapped inside his Porsche Taycan this week when his 12V battery died, but surely nobody would be daft enough to design / build a car that could make you a prisoner in your own car when things go wrong, like in the case of the car in this video, the driver could have been burnt alive if that is true, which is precisely what he is claiming happened, and he had to kick his window out in order to escape?

 

(140) Tesla Owner Breaks Window to Escape Before Vehicle Catches Fire in Vancouver - YouTube

 

Edited 8 October, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

Why is no one talking about this, I don't recall seeing anything here about this particular problem.

 

 

9 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

@wyx087 Seeing as you are a Tesla owner, perhaps you could answer this question, is it true that everything such as door, windows etc is electrically operated and there is no manual method of easily opening a door to get in or out of a Tesla? I know that the McMaster claimed to have been trapped inside his Porsche Taycan this week when his 12V battery died, but surely nobody would be daft enough to design / build a car that could make you a prisoner in your own car when things go wrong, like in the case of the car in this video, the driver could have been burnt alive if that is true, which is precisely what he is claiming happened, and he had to kick his window out in order to escape?

 

(140) Tesla Owner Breaks Window to Escape Before Vehicle Catches Fire in Vancouver - YouTube

 

The owner needs to RTFM.

https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/modely/en_gb/GUID-7A32EC01-A17E-42CC-A15B-2E0A39FD07AB.html

 

Everything is electric when operating normally. There are manual door releases for every door, just like every other car. Window is electric, just like every other car.

 

Here is a link to Taycan manual. On quick glance I haven't found whether door is electronic or traditional.

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/threads/2020-taycan-drivers-manual-owners-manual-pdf.990/

19 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Why is no one talking about this, I don't recall seeing anything here about this particular problem.

 

 

 

Jaguar ipace quite a low volume car with only 60k sales in 5 years and EV buyers have started to view Jaguar as not a serious EV developing company I reckon, probably did not make Jaguar money, despite the race series. Car companies must continue to run a fleet of their own cars and look at retro fitting, recalling if needed and I think Jaguar, who I love as a company, I had a type S fairly recently and toured the F type factory, struggle to do the right things. Hope they can fix things but I do not think of Jaguar when thinking about EVs.

 

42 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

The owner needs to RTFM.

https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/modely/en_gb/GUID-7A32EC01-A17E-42CC-A15B-2E0A39FD07AB.html

 

Everything is electric when operating normally. There are manual door releases for every door, just like every other car. Window is electric, just like every other car.

 

Here is a link to Taycan manual. On quick glance I haven't found whether door is electronic or traditional.

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/threads/2020-taycan-drivers-manual-owners-manual-pdf.990/

Thanks for the links, in the case of the Tesla, it does seem as if there is a manual door latch as well, however, not automatically on the rear doors, the manual reads "if so equipped" so on some models that is an optional extra, utter stupidity in my opinion. However, I still don't think Tesla have given the whole safety issue enough thought and have gone for the full on ease of control and touch / button approach as the main interface. This approach I feel could well see their cars becoming a prison for some people in the event of problems and could even prove to be fatal, not only in the case of fire, but also from suffocating from extreme heat etc as the windows are electric (as indeed most modern cars are) so in the event of having no power, its impossible to either open a door or window. OK, the manual does point out that there is indeed a manual door opening if needed, but I suggest that most people will not bother reading the manual, even if it is in the car. First thoughts in an emergency is to get out, not read the manual first. 

 

On the window side of things, I used to take my late Mother out for trips sometimes while I was working in order to give her a change of scenery as she lived on her own. While I was out of the car at customers premises, doing my job, she would sit in the car and read books etc, but with the advent of windows becoming all electric she would have to open the door and hot days to avoid overheating and to get some cooling air. In a Tesla that could have been a real problem, especially as men don't normally like to read manuals, do we?

 

Most people would expect that the controls should be obvious to everyone, especially such a basic control as door opening, and when they see the button for door opening will not bother looking any further and will become used to the button and even if they have read the manual, I doubt that in an emergency they will remember what they read. They will be in autopilot mode and relying on effectively muscle memory to operate the door release, and will be jabbing away at the electric door control and panicking because it is not responding. 

 

And in the case of the Porsche, you are right, there is no mention of how to even open the door from the inside (in the manual) only how to lock and unlock it. It beggars belief that such a basic point can be overlooked, even in the Skoda manuals there is a drawing of the various controls on the dash and doors and what they do etc. 

52 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

Jaguar ipace quite a low volume car with only 60k sales in 5 years and EV buyers have started to view Jaguar as not a serious EV developing company I reckon, probably did not make Jaguar money, despite the race series. Car companies must continue to run a fleet of their own cars and look at retro fitting, recalling if needed and I think Jaguar, who I love as a company, I had a type S fairly recently and toured the F type factory, struggle to do the right things. Hope they can fix things but I do not think of Jaguar when thinking about EVs.

 

It should not make any difference if Jaguar iPace is seen as a main player in the EV market or not, it is a EV and as such it should be safe and fit for purpose, regardless of if it was actually made by Jaguar or someone else, and they just put their badge on it. I also love Jaguars having driven a few of them over the years, such as the 420G and the XJ6, both very refined, comfortable and fast good-looking cars. It would seem that the video I posted a while of some Ipace cars on a transporter burning, was valid after all, as I noticed that "The Electric Viking" actually included the same video in his video, and it seems that his word is factual!

4 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

It should not make any difference if Jaguar iPace is seen as a main player in the EV market or not, it is a EV and as such it should be safe and fit for purpose, regardless of if it was actually made by Jaguar or someone else, and they just put their badge on it. I also love Jaguars having driven a few of them over the years, such as the 420G and the XJ6, both very refined, comfortable and fast good-looking cars. It would seem that the video I posted a while of some Ipace cars on a transporter burning, was valid after all, as I noticed that "The Electric Viking" actually included the same video in his video, and it seems that his word is factual!

 

Jaguar Land Rover are always down near the bottom of the reliability tables but they do make some impressive performance vehicles and anyone buying a JLR car should be aware of their fragility though fires are an extreme manifestation of lack of reliability. 

Just not surprised that ipace has this or any other biuld quality issue. They are a smallish company relatively speaking. 

 

I am more surprised at the relative failure of the ID 3 and 4 and sister vehicles by VAG group, considering their size, R&D etc.  Poor sales as they do not compare well to many other offerings by other large car manufacturers an now high degradation of their batteries emerging which could seriously damage second hand values.  All is not rosy in European car marking, except TESLA of course.  EU will be tempted to stunt TESLA in any way they can to protect their key car industry I reckon. 

 

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Thanks for the links, in the case of the Tesla, it does seem as if there is a manual door latch as well, however, not automatically on the rear doors, the manual reads "if so equipped" so on some models that is an optional extra, utter stupidity in my opinion.

Pretty sure the rear door emergency release is equipped in all trim levels. Up to now, there is no interior difference between trim levels, only battery and motor difference.

 

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

OK, the manual does point out that there is indeed a manual door opening if needed, but I suggest that most people will not bother reading the manual, even if it is in the car. First thoughts in an emergency is to get out, not read the manual first. 

Without reading the manual, my old man instinctively used the emergency release when first time getting out from passenger seat. I had to point out the open door button. The car beeped and warned about not using it regularly. Very intuitive and doesn't need reading any manual.

 

The front emergency door releases are not hidden AT ALL and does not need reading the manual AT ALL.

 

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

On the window side of things, I used to take my late Mother out for trips sometimes while I was working in order to give her a change of scenery as she lived on her own. While I was out of the car at customers premises, doing my job, she would sit in the car and read books etc, but with the advent of windows becoming all electric she would have to open the door and hot days to avoid overheating and to get some cooling air. In a Tesla that could have been a real problem, especially as men don't normally like to read manuals, do we?

Don't need to read the manual, because it is very obvious in the climate UI but here for your info:  (go down to keep climate on, dog mode and there's also overheat protection)

https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/modely/en_gb/GUID-4F3599A1-20D9-4A49-B4A0-5261F957C096.html

 

Similarly, most car with ignition off wouldn't allow you to roll up/down the window. Skoda also disables interior door release if car is locked, as a feature! I don't understand why would your opinion of these things are so against Tesla and Porsche EV.

42 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Pretty sure the rear door emergency release is equipped in all trim levels. Up to now, there is no interior difference between trim levels, only battery and motor difference.

 

Read the manual that you gave me the link to and see for yourself, I did not make this up, the manual 100% says if it is equipped, that strongly suggests to me that it could and extra cost option on some cars. It also states that some Model Y cars do not come with them.

https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/modely/en_gb/GUID-7A32EC01-A17E-42CC-A15B-2E0A39FD07AB.html

42 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Without reading the manual, my old man instinctively used the emergency release when first time getting out from passenger seat. I had to point out the open door button. The car beeped and warned about not using it regularly. Very intuitive and doesn't need reading any manual.

 

The front emergency door releases are not hidden AT ALL and does not need reading the manual AT ALL.

 

What I was saying that once you become used to using the "normal Tesla" way of opening the doors which is via push button, then that actually becomes ingrained in your memory and you instinctively continue to do so even in an emergency. Your brain does not automatically go searching your memory for something that you may have read, it will react in the same fashion as you always do when opening the door. Panic prevents you from thinking about is there another way of doing this. If you dad it on his own, it suggests that he searched for the door release and tried it and it worked. Remember this was his first time in your car.

42 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Don't need to read the manual, because it is very obvious in the climate UI but here for your info:  (go down to keep climate on, dog mode and there's also overheat protection)

https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/modely/en_gb/GUID-4F3599A1-20D9-4A49-B4A0-5261F957C096.html

 

Similarly, most car with ignition off wouldn't allow you to roll up/down the window. Skoda also disables interior door release if car is locked, as a feature! I don't understand why would your opinion of these things are so against Tesla and Porsche EV.

You are missing the point, I don't have a Tesla, and I did say my late Mother, so this was some years ago we would talking about Passats here with pull door releases but electric window winders, the latter will not work when the ignition is off.

 

You are once again thinking that I'm being anti here when in fact I'm not and have never been anti EV, I have always said that the infrastructure is not in place and that I feel it is wrong to make anyone wanting a new car in 2030 (2025 as it is now) have to have an EV when there is still so much we need to learn about them and any problems that they may bring.

 

In the case of my original question, the driver of the Telsa said he could open the door and the McMaster with his Posche EV was locked inside of his car, not because of the ignition was switched off, but because his 12V car battery that drives all the normal car functions and died and disabled the electric door latch from opening.

 

This is your misconception of what my beef is, and that I feel is because as I said before, you always defend the EVs, you just can't help it.

Edited 8 October, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

4 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Read the manual that you gave me the link to and see for yourself, I did not make this up, the manual 100% says if it is equipped, that strongly suggests to me that it could and extra cost option on some cars. It also states that some Model Y cars do not come with them.

I'm pointing out that there is currently no known interior difference between different trim levels of Model Y. You can check on as many sources as possible, this is widely known. The manual may say this for many reasons.

 

Unlike German cars, Tesla don't do extra cost options apart from colours, tow bar and software stuff. You asked Tesla owner for info, here is the info.

 

 

3 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

You are missing the point, I don't have a Tesla, and I did say my late Mother, so this was some years ago we would talking about Passats here with pull door releases but electric window winders, the latter will not work when the ignition is off.

 

This is your misconception of what my beef is, and that I feel is because as I said before, you always defend the EVs, you just can't help it.

*sigh*    I think you just can't help bringing in your biases.

 

I don't defend EV's, I only try to talk about the truth. As I've repeatedly said and previously referenced, I've posted many instances of negative EV coverage or info.

 

5 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

While I was out of the car at customers premises, doing my job, she would sit in the car and read books etc, but with the advent of windows becoming all electric she would have to open the door and hot days to avoid overheating and to get some cooling air. In a Tesla that could have been a real problem,

My old man have snoozed in the car during a summer day out. Add his phone as phone-key and turn on "keep climate". Not only any problem, it's much better than any ICE car. Window also works as long as car is awake.

 

You specifically singled out a brand of EV despite it would have coped much better in your use-case if you had an EV. When pointed out, you refuse to use your imagination to think how much better it would have been with an EV. You can't help but repeated your "I'm not anti-EV, trust me because I said so" and "you are biased because you only defend EV's". Everyone knows both are not true and it's getting really old.

Perhaps to aid clarification, yes I have seen you post negative, but all I have seen is when it comes to the charging aspects, infrastructure etc, not the vehicle interpretation, in as much as they try to get it to do everything for you, including operating the door catches (not the locks) so that if the car was locked, and anyone was accidentally locked in the car, especially with a keyless entry car, which will automatically lock the car if the driver has the key in his pocket, like I do, and walks away, then the car will lock itself. When I go and get a Chinese takeaway, my son comes with me, but stays in the car while walk to the shop and collect my order. The car locks with him in it by default. Would not expect for him to become a prisoner in the car if I were to meet with an accident and unable to release him. I would expect that he could just pull the door "open" lever in the normal fashion, and it would unlock to let him out and then relock once he closes the door.

 

I will get him to try this out tomorrow and report back, if he is trapped or not, if he is then it is not a good solution, but I seriously doubt that is the case. 

 

When I was talking about having my Mother in the car while I was seeing customers had zero to do with any EV, as it was way before the Prius was launched. It was just after windows went from manual window winders to electric windows. So I could leave her in the car with her books etc, leave the car unlocked and if she wanted air she could just open the door a little a get an air current which is what I was saying to you wyx087, she had to be able to open the door as the electric windows will not work on normal cars if the ignition is witched off.

 

Yes I do know that with a lot of EV's you can control many aspects via a mobile phone app, even in some cases get your car creep out of a tight spot if someone parks to close to you, but that comment was not relevant to my position with my mum, that was still futuristic then. 😑

 

I have zero idea why you always swing it round to EV's when it was nothing to do with them.  

 

Let me try and explain the door locking again, this time using my house, instead of car as an example. Sometimes I need to leave home early if I'm going a long way to attend an air display somewhere. When I leave my house with my middle Son, I don't want to leave the house unlocked with my wife and my youngest Son in bed asleep, so that anyone could walk in and burgle my house. So I put my key in the lock and lock the house, so the only way any can get in is by breaking and entering. That does not leave the rest of my family locked in the house, until I get back home in the evening, all they have to do is to twist the indoor knob on the front door and it will open, from the inside so they are not trapped, and that is exactly how I would expect any car to behave.

Edited 8 October, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

8 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

including operating the door catches (not the locks) so that if the car was locked, and anyone was accidentally locked in the car, especially with a keyless entry car, which will automatically lock the car if the driver has the key in his pocket, like I do, and walks away, then the car will lock itself. When I go and get a Chinese takeaway, my son comes with me, but stays in the car while walk to the shop and collect my order. The car locks with him in it by default. Would not expect for him to become a prisoner in the car if I were to meet with an accident and unable to release him. I would expect that he could just pull the door "open" lever in the normal fashion, and it would unlock to let him out and then relock once he closes the door.

 

I will get him to try this out tomorrow and report back, if he is trapped or not, if he is then it is not a good solution, but I seriously doubt that is the case. 

Sorry to say, in case you haven't read the manual, your lad will also be locked in.

Just like house keys, anyone I want to have access to my Tesla, I can send them a phone key.

https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_us/GUID-E004FAB7-1C71-448F-9492-CACF301304D2.html

 

8 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

I have zero idea why you always swing it round to EV's when it was nothing to do with them.  

Let's look at the title of this thread.......

 

If you can't relate to EV's, then why post them here? There's a big forum out there.

 

No matter how old your story. The fact is there are features exclusive in EV that makes it much better experience for that particular use-case. If you are refusing to see it that way, no one can help you see any positivity in EV's.

42 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Sorry to say, in case you haven't read the manual, your lad will also be locked in.

Oh dear, it's too bad that the manual does not support your claim. I have never known any car where it was possible to actually lock anyone inside a car, it makes zero sense to make a car where you could potentially kill a person simply by locking them inside, whether intentionally or by accident. The opening lever it mentions in the manual (highlighted) is the same opening lever that is used to open the door normally as well. 

 

EDIT:

I just got my Son to sit in the car and close the doors, I walked away with the key in my pocket and the car autolocked as it is indeed meant to, my Son just opened the door from the inside as per usual, it is a safety thing to allow anyone accidentally locked inside a car to get out, but will not allow anyone externally to open the door without having the key with them.

 

So your claim is well and truly busted.

 

SUPERB DOOR LSUPERB DOOR LOCK.pdfOCK.pdf

Edited 9 October, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Oh dear, it's too bad that the manual does not support your claim. I have never known any car where it was possible to actually lock anyone inside a car, it makes zero sense to make a car where you could potentially kill a person simply by locking them inside, whether intentionally or by accident.

You've never heard of Skoda's Safelock?

 

 

Seems to be standard across VAG cars:

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=86&t=1773347

 

 

Mr Paul-G has same level of outlook and deduction skill as you, see the conclusion he came to:

https://www.myaudiq5.com/threads/manually-open-doors-from-inside-on-power-failure.41960/

 

 

Edited 9 October, 20232 yr by wyx087

@wyx087 When I pick him from work later on, I ask him to sit in the car for a few minutes and then test it again then and will report back again.

First port of call, as always, should be the manual. Does the paper manual for your car talk about Safelock? Does the dash flash up with Safelock message when you shut off ignition? Is it possible it's not equipped on your car? (although unlike Tesla manual, the Skoda Octavia manual doesn't have such wording) 

 

Sorry, this is going further and further off topic. A lot of times people's view are formed around what they know (very reasonable). But often the industry moves on. Unfortunately the scary new stuff taunted by media are blamed for standard industry-wide practice. 

Safelock does lock you or a passenger in the car with no means of escape and I have yet to find a way to disable it and especially the annoying and incomprehensible message that comes up saying it is activated.

 

Mine does not have keyless and will not lock when I get out unless I press the remote locking button on the keyfob, at home the car is never locked, one time I got in after loading stuff from a DIY store and realised I did not have the keys to put in the ignition, at that second the doors locked and I could not get out using any door handle or window, also the alarm went off.

 

There were lots of people around so other than the embarrassment of the spectacle I had no real worries so I composed myself and went back over my footsteps, where could the keys be? (they were not in my pockets) and secondly whay had the car locked? Door lock switch not working?

 

That was secondary to being able to get out and find the keys, I crawled in the back to look if they had fallen out when loading but they were not there, eventually I found them under the drivers seat, I still cant be sure of how the vehicle locked that one time only, door lock switches function as they should, maybe that one time the drivers door one didnt, maybe the keys fell and my foot or something pressed the lock button.

 

What I do know from experience of being locked in and having had to release children and babies locked in other VAG vehicles at filling stations is that all VAG vehicles since the last century have deadlocks and when they are locked they are locked the inside door handles are inoperative, if you smash a window you have to pull the occupant through it or exit yourself through it.

It used to flash up on previous Superbs and Passats that I've had over the years, but there were not keyless ones, this current car is. Therefore, I was able to switch the ignition off and take the keys with me and leave my Mother in the car with the doors unlocked but unable to operate the power windows, as you would expect with the ignition switched off.

 

I would not expect the safelock to activate automatically but as a secondary function. If I walk away, the car locks, then if I press the lock button on the fab, the mirrors fold in, and that's when I would have thought that the safelock should kick in.

11 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

When I go and get a Chinese takeaway, my son comes with me, but stays in the car while walk to the shop and collect my order. The car locks with him in it by default. Would not expect for him to become a prisoner in the car if I were to meet with an accident and unable to release him. I would expect that he could just pull the door "open" lever in the normal fashion, and it would unlock to let him out and then relock once he closes the door.

 

11 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

all they have to do is to twist the indoor knob on the front door and it will open, from the inside so they are not trapped, and that is exactly how I would expect any car to behave.

 

You are leaving a lot to trust in your "expectations" if you know that the car locks with your son in it then surely as a responsable parent you would have done a test to see if he could get out and made sure he was aware of how, I definitely would not trust to my "expectations" or even what the manual said in that instance, I would want to see it with my own eyes.

 

Sadly there have been a few cases of people dying in deadlocked VAG vehicles, one was a woman (I think) returning home after a boozy night out who decided to sleep in the car so as not to disturb her partner, before you ask I cant recall the details of how the vehicle was unlocked or where the keys were, I don't think even the Coroner got a satisfactory answer but I deduced it was probably a faulty door open switch or the keys left outside.

You can double click the key fob on a Mk2 Fabia vRS and lock the cars so that the doors can not be opened from inside and the alarm is set and gets set off by the occupant.

I did it first by mistake and was inside a building and a bit Mutt & Jeff.  The passenger was not amused.

Obviously i did it on purpose occasionally after that. 

 

 

I still dont even know what "Safelock" is supposed to be but I would never be happy leaving a person or an animal in my vehicle knowing that the doors had locked or could lock and I certainly would not be comforted by my expectations.

2 minutes ago, toot said:

You can double click the key fob on a Mk2 Fabia vRS and lock the cars so that the doors can not be opened from inside and the alarm is set and gets set off by the occupant.

I did it first by mistake and was inside a building and a bit Mutt & Jeff.  The passenger was not amused.

Obviously i did it on purpose occasionally after that. 

 

 

Does that mean with one click the alarm is not set and the doors are not deadlocked?

 

No such feature on any of my 3 Skodas dating back to 2001, one click only sets everything.

 

I can see that it would be desirable but in the inverse way, one click all secured, 2 clicks alarm disabled and inside door handles operative, that would be a great benefit when I sleep in the car in dodgy areas, I currently have to leave it unlocked or set the alarm off whenever I roll over!

@J.R. If it turns out  that with keyless system, the doors will eventually activate the deadlocks, then that is a dangerous situation and an accident waiting to happen. I always leave the keys in my trouser pocket and so when I go to a filling station for fuel with the family in the car and I walk away to pay at the cash desk, they could be in serious trouble if an accident happened on the forecourt. I think I will have to do some more testing of this then and maybe start taking the keys and leaving them in the car which is counterintuitive after years of having to take the keys with me in order to prevent car jacking etc.