Ukraine - war ? UK only economic sanctions or military action too ? Is the Ukraine issue simple or complex ?

[cheezemonkhai]

Infosys are not breaking any laws in India, regardless of my opinions on that.

 

Just because someone is a politician, doesn’t mean their family is fair game.

[@Lee]

If that politician is the Prime Minister of the UK of GB and NI, then I believe that yes, the whole family should be under scrutiny. Especially if that PM has familial links to a country under international sanctions irregardless of where that family's country is doing its business.

 

It's important to know where our politicians, especially those in the most senior positions, are recieving income from. Sunak said before Christmas that he would open his tax returns but has still not done so.

 

He also said he wanted to lead with integrity and honesty but where is it? 

[cheezemonkhai]

On 31/01/2023 at 01:48, @Lee said:

If that politician is the Prime Minister of the UK of GB and NI, then I believe that yes, the whole family should be under scrutiny. Especially if that PM has familial links to a country under international sanctions irregardless of where that family's country is doing its business.

 

It's important to know where our politicians, especially those in the most senior positions, are recieving income from. Sunak said before Christmas that he would open his tax returns but has still not done so.

 

He also said he wanted to lead with integrity and honesty but where is it? 

We covered this in the previous page of this very thread. Going after public figures families is IMHO not ok.

[lol-lol]

 

With the Western world increasingly giving more and more high tech kit to the Ukrainians to fight with any thoughts at what point the Russian think it is OK to hit the supply chain to the conflict area ie train, ship etc on their way to the Ukraine even if the vessels, train and in international waters or cross bridge across rivers etc, that often are the borders, as they approach the Ukraine.

 

MUch easier for the Russian to take out masses of amount of armour when they are all bunched together in transportation than to try and pick them off indiviually on the battlefield unless and until they may start using battlefield tactical nuclear weapons......

 

  

[Tilt]

On 31/01/2023 at 01:48, @Lee said:

If that politician is the Prime Minister of the UK of GB and NI, then I believe that yes, the whole family should be under scrutiny. Especially if that PM has familial links to a country under international sanctions irregardless of where that family's country is doing its business.

 

It's important to know where our politicians, especially those in the most senior positions, are recieving income from. Sunak said before Christmas that he would open his tax returns but has still not done so.

 

He also said he wanted to lead with integrity and honesty but where is it? 

 

With you on that Lee ..........

 

Otherwise they could just hide any ill gotten gains behind their partners, kids or whoever they can .......

 

And no-one would be able to do anything about it.

[@Lee]

This special military operation is dragging on a bit. 

 

[Ootohere]

Talk of how much the poor economically challenged UK where people can not afford to heat and eat and it is only time until they say no more spending on the Ukraine is just stupid.

Mentioned this morning on Good Morning Britain / ITV and among journalists because they are following a narrative.

 

Well if they think it cost too much arming and training Ukrainians so far and into the future they need to think on what it will cost if Russia takes control of the Ukraine. 

[EnterName]

1 hour ago, toot said:

Talk of how much the poor economically challenged UK where people can not afford to heat and eat and it is only time until they say no more spending on the Ukraine is just stupid.

Mentioned this morning on Good Morning Britain / ITV and among journalists because they are following a narrative.

 

Well if they think it cost too much arming and training Ukrainians so far and into the future they need to think on what it will cost if Russia takes control of the Ukraine. 

What will it cost if Russia takes control of the Ukraine?

Remember Ukraine only officially became an independent country in 1991 when they had what might be called Ukrexit.

[PetrolDave]

36 minutes ago, EnterName said:

What will it cost if Russia takes control of the Ukraine?

Financially and or morally?

 

Financially it will give Russia control over one of the largest grain exporters in the world, which I suggest will increase world grain prices even further and allow Putin to turn grain into a 'weapon' which could be lethal for states (especially those in Africa) suffering famine already.

 

Morally, it is likely to embolden Putin to try to regain more of the former Soviet satellite states which would destabilise European givernments even more than they are now.

[Ootohere]

All the Pension Fund money already invested in the Ukraine and the deals that the UK has for the future that is why so much support has already been given.  The loans made already pre war and in the past year all outstanding.   There might be energy and food and electrical equipment shortages now but actually the Ukrainian industries are not total shut down just now.  There is a lot of the Great British Pound dependent on the Ukraine and many more expected to be coming into the UK or offshore tax havens rebuilding the Ukraine.   JCB will be expecting to be there among many more huge corporations that are donors to the Conservative and Unionist party and also the Labour.    War and after wars and disasters is such a big earner for one and all.   The USA and the UK are not in it for the sake of the poor and needy Ukrainians.    Actually lots of Ukrainians with money are not anyplace near the Ukraine and neither is their money.  Lots of it is in Scotland and in business that will rebuild and arm the Ukraine. 

 

 

 

 

[EnterName]

1 minute ago, PetrolDave said:

Financially and or morally?

 

Financially it will give Russia control over one of the largest grain exporters in the world, which I suggest will increase world grain prices even further and allow Putin to turn grain into a 'weapon' which could be lethal for states (especially those in Africa) suffering famine already.

 

Morally, it is likely to embolden Putin to try to regain more of the former Soviet satellite states which would destabilise European givernments even more than they are now.

I'm nearly 60 and I can't remember a time when Europeans weren't being implored to "Think of the poor starving Africans!".

When I was a kid, I was told to eat my greens because "There's kids STARVING in Africa.".

The sad fact is that while Africa is run by Africans, Africans will starve, whoever is running the Ukraine.

The "things would be even worse" argument is often used when a political endeavour fails to achieve its objective, but still wants to justify its existence.  It's a "heads I win, tails you lose" gambit.

[Ootohere]

The UK sells weapons to anyone and really are not just giving stuff away now.  Much of the Defence equipment manufacturers in the UK is offence not Defence.  Much made for US owned companies.  Much US money from these weapon and communication companies goes to UK political parties.  Particularly in Scotland.  As it is the training of overseas people on warfare within the UK might well be costing the tax payers, but then everyone is being feed and accommodated and when millions and billions is spent there are people actually making money, paying taxes etc to provide to the UK military.    If some of the money does stay within the UK then good.    As it is we keep sending money off to various countries to help the people who have miserable lives or deaths because the UK armed their ruling governments or those attacking them to rob them of their countries resources.  

[EnterName]

8 minutes ago, toot said:

All the Pension Fund money already invested in the Ukraine and the deals that the UK has for the future that is why so much support has already been given.  The loans made already pre war and in the past year all outstanding.   There might be energy and food and electrical equipment shortages now but actually the Ukrainian industries are not total shut down just now.  There is a lot of the Great British Pound dependent on the Ukraine and many more expected to be coming into the UK or offshore tax havens rebuilding the Ukraine.   JCB will be expecting to be there among many more huge corporations that are donors to the Conservative and Unionist party and also the Labour.    War and after wars and disasters is such a big earner for one and all.   The USA and the UK are not in it for the sake of the poor and needy Ukrainians.    Actually lots of Ukrainians with money are not anyplace near the Ukraine and neither is their money.  Lots of it is in Scotland and in business that will rebuild and arm the Ukraine.

This is a very plausible explanation of what's going on. 👍

One might wonder why so much UK money was invested in such an incorrigibly corrupt country as Ukraine, but of course that's a question that provides its own answer.

 

My own opinion on the conflict is that a peace agreement should have been sought a while ago. In the absence of that, I believe Russia will prevail in this conflict.

I also predict Zelensky will scuttle out of Ukraine shortly before he runs out of military and human resources to throw at Russia.

After Russia does prevail, we will find ourselves in the unenviable position of having given a lot of military resources to a very corrupt country, which is now captured by an "enemy" we were helping the corrupt country to fight. I put quotes around "enemy" as I'm not sure exactly who decides whether Russia is or isn't an enemy of the UK. (Certainly this "enemy" seems to have been allowed to buy a lot of property in London.)

Why irked me was all the "Slava Ukraine!" nonsense, which seems to have diminished, with even the most earnest virtue-signallers having quietly removed the Ukraine profile flag from their profile avatars.

[lol-lol]

Does Ukraine want to retake Crimean peninsula as well as the Donbask with the aid of Western weaponry ?

 

Russia has held the Crimea since 2014 but is this UKraine's opportunity to try and take it back and will Russia start using it massive arsenal of tactical nuclear weapons if it comes to that ?

 

With rumours that China will start supplying lethal weapon to Russia, presumably for gas and oil supplied in return, Turkey and Iran selling drone to Russia, India on the fence, is the West sure that it has both the depth of support it needs and has fully calculated the continuing economic damage to the citizens in the West as the Russia-Ukraine conflict is currently wrecking the lives, economically, of millions of Western citizens ie bottom 20% or so ?

 

Any decent person want the people of Ukraine to live in peace and economically good place for such a resource rich country but a Third Way must be found else the cost to most citizens of the world will be long and painful not a exercise in showing off Western weapon superiority as Russia is known to have considerable weapons of equal, if not superior, technology and that could extract a heavy if not ending price on those it chooses to target and destroy as Russia feels pushed beyond the point of keeping the war non-nuclear, chemical or biological.   

 

Edited 21 February, 2023 by lol-lol

[PetrolDave]

28 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

Morally, it is likely to embolden Putin to try to regain more of the former Soviet satellite states which would destabilise European givernments even more than they are now.

 

15 minutes ago, EnterName said:

I'm nearly 60 and I can't remember a time when Europeans weren't being implored to "Think of the poor starving Africans!".

When I was a kid, I was told to eat my greens because "There's kids STARVING in Africa.".

The sad fact is that while Africa is run by Africans, Africans will starve, whoever is running the Ukraine.

I agree that, largely due to corruption on an industrial scale, Africa will always starve - but surely that doesn't make it OK for Putin to make the situiation worse?

 

OK you've shared a view on the grain angle I mentioned, but what about the risk of Putin wanting to regain the Soviet satellite states I mentioned?

[PetrolDave]

4 minutes ago, EnterName said:

My own opinion on the conflict is that a peace agreement should have been sought a while ago.

Over the last year there have been several reports of nations such as China seeking to get discussions started on a ceasefire or peace agreement, but all those reports ahev said that both Putin and Zelensky are still in entrenched positions and unwilling to negotiate anything other than a humiulation for the other - that's no basis for negotiations with both sides still able to fight.

[EnterName]

1 minute ago, PetrolDave said:

OK you've shared a view on the grain angle I mentioned, but what about the risk of Putin wanting to regain the Soviet satellite states I mentioned?

Personally I don't have any interest in who runs the Soviet satellite states, I don't consider Putin having control of them a "threat".

Perhaps Putin will hold a series of never-ending referenda on membership of a new Soviet union until he gets the answer he wants, and then we can all consider the matter settled?

[EnterName]

16 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

Over the last year there have been several reports of nations such as China seeking to get discussions started on a ceasefire or peace agreement, but all those reports ahev said that both Putin and Zelensky are still in entrenched positions and unwilling to negotiate anything other than a humiulation for the other - that's no basis for negotiations with both sides still able to fight.

Yes indeed. I can believe the UK and US governments will be happy for Ukraine to fight to the last Ukrainian man, and will keep providing military resource and encouragement to ensure they do.

Edited 21 February, 2023 by EnterName
Added bold to quote give context to my reply

[PetrolDave]

1 hour ago, EnterName said:

Perhaps Putin will hold a series of never-ending referenda on membership of a new Soviet union until he gets the answer he wants, and then we can all consider the matter settled?

It will only be settled if any such referenda are genuinely free and fair - which given the track record of independent observers of elections in Russia and its hangers-on such as Belarus is somewhat unlikely.

[NeilMH]

Just watched bits of Putin's "speech". His audience seemed to have mastered what might best be described as a "neutral" expression! Some people argue that he is mad - but sadly I don't think he is - he is certainly clever with the propaganda - evoking memories of the Great Patriotic War, "who would have thought we would be seeing German tanks rolling through Europe", NATO intent on destroying the motherland etc etc - to which has been added the carrot of apparently wide ranging state support for veterans, workers at arms factories and so on. I wonder how much of that support will actually materialise, given the issues they appear to have had with supplies to the front line. I still struggle to get my head around the return of trench style warfare in my lifetime. A close member of my family is housing a Ukrainian lady and her 9 year old daughter. When she arrived at Gatwick the daughter wouldn't go into the multi-storey car park........ because on their way out of Ukraine they had to shelter in an underground car park to avoid shelling - very sad.

[skomaz]

Probably not mad but certainly delusional...   and with a slightly skewed view of reality

[NeilMH]

2 minutes ago, skomaz said:

Probably not mad but certainly delusional...   and with a slightly skewed view of reality

Not helped by the probability that those close to him are almost certainly reluctant to diverge from his view of the world. Rather a lot of senior figures appear to have suffered from "Mystery Fall Syndrome" from balconies, hospitals and hotel windows.

[Ootohere]

They have those falls in the UK as well and nothing to do with being Russian, it can happen with a Dundonian. 

All about the money. 

http://dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/gangland-fixer-impaled-railings-laundered-21220163

http://thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/dundee/3301898/scot-young-dundee-russia-documentaries

 

I wonder if he will be a guest of his Aunt at the coronation.

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60660384

Anything she wants for his uncle KC3 he could get.  

 

Edited 21 February, 2023 by toot

[@Lee]

3 hours ago, EnterName said:

What will it cost if Russia takes control of the Ukraine?

Remember Ukraine only officially became an independent country in 1991 when they had what might be called Ukrexit.

Speaking of terms ending in 'rexit', here's Boris Johnson in the video below where he says "yes, they should begin the process of induction both to NATO and, of course, to the EU".
The Boris Johnson who took Britain OUT of the EU? Mind you, he also dismissed the idea of tank battles in Europe not so long ago. (Three months before the Nazi Putin invaded Ukraine)
 

 

 

Edited 21 February, 2023 by @Lee

[gumdrop]

A little off topic, but this guy has some interesting stuff on his website. He seems to check the accuracy of his information as much as is possible.

It shows just how badly off the poor russian grunts are, regarding food, ammunition and winter clothing supplies. I'm surprised they don't mutiny!

 

 

 

Edited 21 February, 2023 by john999boy
Adjusted hyperlink