BT Digital Phone Line Switchover

[Warrior193]

Should not happen if G59 relay fitted. I do know that there was a programme recently where the supply authorities were checking / updating the relay settings. Unsure of the setup if the property has battery storage, they COULD provide power for a short time - but the solar panels are set up to cease generation when the grid goes down.   

[PetrolDave]

23 hours ago, john999boy said:

One of the 'benefits' of certain mobile phones/landline combinations is that even if there's no cell signal, the mobile can make & receive calls via the house wi-fi.

 

... how I am able to use my mobile when at my brothers house - via Vodafone WiFi calling.

[john999boy]

3 hours ago, Warrior193 said:

That would be unlikely - the G59 relay should prevent local power generation if the grid is down. Supply authorities normally prohibit operation in 'island mode' 

 

3 hours ago, roottoot said:

@Warrior193Good to know. 

So does 'unlikely' actually mean not possible and not going to happen? 

 

I know nothing. I just hope that others do.

https://nfuenergy.co.uk/news/generators-g59-relay-must-act-now

 

I may be totally wrong here @Warrior193 but I thought it prevented export and not generation? Then again if it turns the generation side off it certainly won't be exporting will it? 😉

After all you don't want the DNO turning the power off at 'their end' and getting electrocuted from 'your end'!

 

I hadn't previously heard about the G59 business (and presumably G83 & others) before - cheers George.

[VWD]

6 hours ago, roottoot said:

@Warrior193Good to know. 

So does 'unlikely' actually mean not possible and not going to happen? 

 

I know nothing. I just hope that others do.

https://nfuenergy.co.uk/news/generators-g59-relay-must-act-now

 

In our case ,and I've tried all the major networks, it seems that only one network ( Vodafone  et  networks using Vodafone network ,i.e. Talkmobile) still use 2G which is only network to penetrate our old house. I'd prefer to use EE as I get a better deal on the Plusnet side of things ( 3GB data ,vs 1GB for same price) , but we use our phones on the unlimited calls & texts for the same price ( or similar) as Plusnet would charge us for similar on our landline.

I could easily  ( could many others) simply power my mobile off car supply. BUT( in my case, if my house supply goes out, then I'd suggest that local mast is on same supply chain).

Again, when ( not if) we get into a VOIP landline, I'd suspect that VOIP will be routed through BT cabinets, which rely on local power( not as sent from exchange), so having an in house UPS wiol not be an advantage.

On a jovial front, years ago I dud hear of a BOO BOO  by BT. They'd decided to cut costs on an island comms problem, so set up a radio link to the island. All was well till they got reports of no comms at certain times. aFTER A LOT OF WASTED HOURS +££££ on investigation, that the problem was tidal= send & recieve aerials were set so that at high tide the sea prevented a line of site .

Edited 21 March, 2022 by VWD

[@Lee]

27 minutes ago, VWD said:

 

Again, when ( not if) we get into a VOIP landline, I'd suspect that VOIP will be routed through BT cabinets, which rely on local power( not as sent from exchange), so having an in house UPS wiol not be an advantage.

 

 

Openreach DSLAMs have UPS battery back ups for when local power is out.

[Warrior193]

19 hours ago, john999boy said:

 

 

I may be totally wrong here @Warrior193 but I thought it prevented export and not generation? Then again if it turns the generation side off it certainly won't be exporting will it? 😉

After all you don't want the DNO turning the power off at 'their end' and getting electrocuted from 'your end'!

 

I hadn't previously heard about the G59 business (and presumably G83 & others) before - cheers George.

My understanding is that the G59 relay shuts down the inverter when it detects loss of mains supply - so no output from solar system. I believe the G83 relay operates the same way. The relay check / update may possibly have been primarily for commercial installations. About 6 months ago I had to 'escort and assist' a technician tasked by our supply authority to check the relay in the installation at the Health Centre I look after. 

[Warrior193]

16 hours ago, @Lee said:

 

Openreach DSLAMs have UPS battery back ups for when local power is out.

So did a Disaster Recovery Data Centre I once looked after, supported by 2 x 1MW diesel sets - but there were large change-over contactors installed to the incomers to prevent power being exported to the grid. 

[PetrolDave]

17 hours ago, @Lee said:

Openreach DSLAMs have UPS battery back ups for when local power is out.

So when the digital switchover happens at premises with a copper connection to the exchange (i.e. NOT FTTH) is there any reason why the basic no broadband box (i.e. the box that allows an analogue phone to be connected to the line) could not be exchange powered?

 

That would allow some people in mobile not spots to be able to contact their DNO to report a power cut.

[VWD]

On 21/03/2022 at 22:38, @Lee said:

 

Openreach DSLAMs have UPS battery back ups for when local power is out.

With what sort of capacity. I mention this after reading reports on FB about how long customers were without service after recent storms. So much for modern technology as in days of yore service limitations down to power failures was only dependant on fuel to central generators. The network was powerfed over either the signal route or by alternative methods .

[@Lee]

On 22/03/2022 at 17:35, PetrolDave said:

So when the digital switchover happens at premises with a copper connection to the exchange (i.e. NOT FTTH) is there any reason why the basic no broadband box (i.e. the box that allows an analogue phone to be connected to the line) could not be exchange powered?

 

That would allow some people in mobile not spots to be able to contact their DNO to report a power cut.

Power wasn't my side of things tbh, Dave but I don't see why not. How long the copper will remain in the ground is another thing. BT are eager to get it out and weighed in at the scrappers. Billions of pounds worth of it and pensions need paying.

[@Lee]

8 minutes ago, VWD said:

With what sort of capacity. I mention this after reading reports on FB about how long customers were without service after recent storms. So much for modern technology as in days of yore service limitations down to power failures was only dependant on fuel to central generators. The network was powerfed over either the signal route or by alternative methods .

I've no idea what the capacity is/ was. Batteries were not my problem, that was for others to go round checking, testing and replacing if necessary. They were quite bulky though and a multiplexer doesn't draw a massive amount of power. All it does is convert an electrical signal from the ADSL router into light signals to go via fibre to the exchange. Don't even ask me how it does that. Witchcraft is my best guess.

[VWD]

Capacity and security of the power to equipment in cabs seems to have been an afterthought. In days BL( before Lee😁), and way back into the dark days HF routes and later nto copper DIGITAL ( =PCM) routes were powerfed over either the signal pair, or over a spare pair in the cable. Pre digital, there were two ways of power feeding over coax tubes. One involved high voltage ,the other ( a more modern version of the old equipment ) was a low voltage current controlled /limited supply. This is what digital copper became. But with copper came the problem of losses, so amplifiers ( or in digital ) regenerators were needed. Fibre has no losses so the only time power is needed is at active devices/ split the light signals to pulses down copper. With copper there are losses ,so active devices are needed to boost the signal. With fibre- the only problem is refraction at joints. It's not witchcraft, just the appliance of science.

 

[cheezemonkhai]

On 21/03/2022 at 19:30, john999boy said:

 

 

I may be totally wrong here @Warrior193 but I thought it prevented export and not generation? Then again if it turns the generation side off it certainly won't be exporting will it? 😉

After all you don't want the DNO turning the power off at 'their end' and getting electrocuted from 'your end'!

 

I hadn't previously heard about the G59 business (and presumably G83 & others) before - cheers George.

 

I have been told that the export is prevented when the grid fails and that the solar must either be disabled or completely isolated (powerwall, changeover switch) into an island and generating no more than is used or sent to a battery. In those cases you need your own earth too.

 

Phone wise, since PSTN is going off an it's all going VOIP anyway, then I imagine vulnerable people will get the old sytle PON with a backup battery and some enterprising types will sell them to others who want similar.

 

 

Edited 24 March, 2022 by cheezemonkhai

[VWD]

CM- at present with old style copper provision, house phone gets its feed over line. In the event that mains fails to the area/exchange, then exchange generator will kick in. BB will stay on as long as the UPS in the cabinet can keep up with demand. ( For FTTC customers). I'd imagine that FTTP will still be there if fed direct from exchange and depend on exchange generator. The problem comes with VOIP and FTTP where the phone is powered from the router and FTTP depends on the house supply.

I seem to remember that my router ( on FTTC) is supplied by a 12v PSU. To date, I've not seen any ideas on what the VOIP supply from a router is. Could be exchange voltages( traditionally 48v, but more common to be nearer 60v  on digital exchanges) or perhaps the new generation of handsets work from 12v.

But another problem arises with the dependance on mains power. If an area suffers a power outage, how likely is that the local mobile base stations ( as it's becoming common not to provide them with decent power backups ,as witnessed in recent power outages) to fail due to lack of power?

[PetrolDave]

11 hours ago, VWD said:

But another problem arises with the dependance on mains power. If an area suffers a power outage, how likely is that the local mobile base stations ( as it's becoming common not to provide them with decent power backups ,as witnessed in recent power outages) to fail due to lack of power?

When I was Chief Engineer at a mobile infrastructure company we had to meet a spec from the mobile operators of at least 8 hour battery backup on all mobile base stations from micro up mast ones to major huge boxes at the base of a mast ones.

[@Lee]

Apologies for the source...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10661981/BT-throws-lifeline-landlines-bosses-suspend-digital-rollout-customer-backlash.html?fr=operanews

 

[AnnoyingPentium]

Quote

  "...hybrid phones that can switch to mobile networks if an internet connection is lost..."

 

So, what if you have no mobile network coverage and you lose your internet? The infrastructure BT is planning to rely on here clearly isn't ready for any of this, IMO.

[PetrolDave]

23 hours ago, AnnoyingPentium said:

So, what if you have no mobile network coverage and you lose your internet? The infrastructure BT is planning to rely on here clearly isn't ready for any of this, IMO.

BT need to think carefully about providing some limited exchange power over a copper connection to power a basic VoIP adapter (to which a basic non-powered analogue landline phone could be connected).

 

However, even that would be no help to those with FTTH (like my new house) and in a mobile notspot...

[VWD]

Dave - ( see my last post). As i said, in days of old, in the old copper kingdom, all line equpment ( and even digital stuff) was power fed from a secure supply. The emphasis was on solidarity of service. Somehow with the new management structure, service to the customer seems to have taken a back seat. These days I'm wondering if my old mate & mentor was correct in his saying that the customer ( in those days it was the subscriber) got service despite the best efforts of the organisation to prevent it.

[cheezemonkhai]

On 28/03/2022 at 22:00, VWD said:

CM- at present with old style copper provision, house phone gets its feed over line. In the event that mains fails to the area/exchange, then exchange generator will kick in. BB will stay on as long as the UPS in the cabinet can keep up with demand. ( For FTTC customers). I'd imagine that FTTP will still be there if fed direct from exchange and depend on exchange generator. The problem comes with VOIP and FTTP where the phone is powered from the router and FTTP depends on the house supply.

I seem to remember that my router ( on FTTC) is supplied by a 12v PSU. To date, I've not seen any ideas on what the VOIP supply from a router is. Could be exchange voltages( traditionally 48v, but more common to be nearer 60v  on digital exchanges) or perhaps the new generation of handsets work from 12v.

But another problem arises with the dependance on mains power. If an area suffers a power outage, how likely is that the local mobile base stations ( as it's becoming common not to provide them with decent power backups ,as witnessed in recent power outages) to fail due to lack of power?

 

I have both FTTP (Broadband) and PSTN (Phone line, which I decided to keep just in case of a power loss).

 

Sure enough 12 hours without power and the FTTPis dead as a door knob, but on pulling out the old corded phone I keep around for such rare occurances, the PSTN line worked fine. I could call the DNO who "had no reported problems" (Funny that when everyone was without power and we have almost no mobile coverage).

 

I see value in PSTN, but as a network technology it has been surpassed.

The old <chinese manufacturer who fell out of favour with the USA> PON points included a BBU to provide an amount of power.

I imagine similar are produced, but are not supplied by default as the PON we got has no backup power and it much smaller.

 

Mobile as a backup is a joke in much of this country, but that's a whole different issue.

 

I could see there being an option to purchase the battery PON (with them given to the vulnerable), but that only has a certain power window.

What I would quite like to see would be a small battery in a PON, (Few hours) and a metalic pair that can send power from a central location to the vulnerable or those who pay for it. (Like PSTN, but perhaps using 12-48V down the armour or a LV pair in with the fibre, that can trickle recharge that small PON battery.)

 

Obviously it's not as simple as that, but the whole thing as it stands seems a lot on a wing and a prayer to me.

 

 

 

 

 

[VWD]

Not so much done on a wing and prayer, but ( and this is from what I see from the pages of BT sites from old engineers) as the modern "attitude" from management that customers should be "satisfied" that they get a service.

I'm fortunate, that my provider is still on copper. But given the locality/proximity of the base stations on mobile services, ( with no auxilatory generators to supply base stations) , it can be seen that if an area suffers a power outage ,then the mobile base stations wil suffer similarly.

 

[Rizmod]

BT are disconnecting my old phone socket tomorrow, so I'll only have VOIP via FFTH, a modem with small battery backup and a BT Home Hub router.  They've already sent me a new Home Hub 2 with a telephone socket on the rear.  I also asked for a free Digital Voice Adapter, which plugs into any mains socket.  The DECT base station plugs into that, so can then stay where it is at the opposite side of the house from the Home Hub, rather than having to be plugged into the router.  The old telephone sockets and wiring will be redundant. I live in the middle of nowhere but (luckily) have a good mobile signal.

[john999boy]

2 hours ago, Rizmod said:

I also asked for a free Digital Voice Adapter, which plugs into any mains socket.  The DECT base station plugs into that, so can then stay where it is at the opposite side of the house from the Home Hub, rather than having to be plugged into the router.

That's something I wasn't aware of. 👍

[Rizmod]

I can report that it took me only a couple of minutes to get everything working. The only downsides are lack of dialing tone on the DECT phone handsets and that the old answer machine doesn't work, but at least it indicates missed calls and times.  BT now provides voicemail.

[john999boy]

8 minutes ago, Rizmod said:

The only downsides are lack of dialing tone on the DECT phone handsets

Just for testing purposes, do you get a dial tone on the secondary phones if you plug the base station into the router?