MkIV Octavia VRS Audio upgrade - disappointing

[Felix2021]

Cannot find my Focal replacement photos now, but found one photo with original speakers, and seems in my case polarity also was reversed with original speakers.

Anyway you can try to reverse it and check. There's clerly something wrong, and actually if you will have mid-woofer polarity reversed compared to tweeter, waves will cancel each other leaving you with no treble. Crossover will never cut everything, so mid-woofer is always trying to play some treble.

[Giannis20]

23 hours ago, Felix2021 said:

Cannot find my Focal replacement photos now, but found one photo with original speakers, and seems in my case polarity also was reversed with original speakers.

Anyway you can try to reverse it and check. There's clerly something wrong, and actually if you will have mid-woofer polarity reversed compared to tweeter, waves will cancel each other leaving you with no treble. Crossover will never cut everything, so mid-woofer is always trying to play some treble.

 

It's strange this matter with the "reverse" polarity. 

Yesterday i did some tests, i changed the polarity of the tweeters without any change to the sound quality. 

I even putted the original tweeters. I didn't understood any change at the sound quality or at the sound volume. 

I have to check the mid range speakers, at the door. 

I wondering if there is a chance that  the FOCAL speaker set is not original and the quality was poor.  

[Felix2021]

On 22/03/2024 at 12:37, Giannis20 said:

I wondering if there is a chance that  the FOCAL speaker set is not original and the quality was poor.

NEver heard of it, but these days anything is possible.

I got my Focal's from amazon.de

There's clearly something wrong in your case, as lacking treble is the last thing that could be said about Focal. Until very recently Focal has been actually known for rather bright and detailed sound, and those ISVW 165 speakers are the same.

Don't know, maybe one (or both) tweeter is dead? If you put your ear next to the speaker do you hear the sound coming from it? Changing polarity of either tweeters or mid-woofers should change the sound, as in the end you are making speakers play way out of phase, hence waves will partially cancel each other changing the sound. If there is no change in your case, it's really strange.

[Giannis20]

5 hours ago, Felix2021 said:

NEver heard of it, but these days anything is possible.

I got my Focal's from amazon.de

There's clearly something wrong in your case, as lacking treble is the last thing that could be said about Focal. Until very recently Focal has been actually known for rather bright and detailed sound, and those ISVW 165 speakers are the same.

Don't know, maybe one (or both) tweeter is dead? If you put your ear next to the speaker do you hear the sound coming from it? Changing polarity of either tweeters or mid-woofers should change the sound, as in the end you are making speakers play way out of phase, hence waves will partially cancel each other changing the sound. If there is no change in your case, it's really strange.

 

I appreciate your comments. 

I will open the card door for both of the front doors, to check the speakers. I will try to reverse polarity to see if there is any change at the quality of the sound. 

I will also check the foam around the speaker, maybe it is pressed enough and flattens part of the membrane of the speaker.

 

 

I hear music from both speakers, but it's not loud and definitely not clear (detailed).

 

 

[Edela]

Sometimes my infotainment catches some bug and sound goes bad. What helps is to reset focus in sound settings and bring it back to front seats, as I usually do. Who knows, maybe worth doing the same in your car, just to be sure?

[Felix2021]

@Giannis20 looking at your picture it seems possible, that foam, when pressed, is pressing against speaker suspension and impacts the sound.

However that doesn't explain why you do not have enough treble, as this is coming from tweeters, that are not blocked by the foam (i assume  ).

Anyway try whatever you can, as really your experience is the opposite of my experience with Focal, so there must be something wrong. Even if they are not the best speakers out there, they are objectively way better than factory speakers.

[Giannis20]

15 hours ago, Edela said:

Sometimes my infotainment catches some bug and sound goes bad. What helps is to reset focus in sound settings and bring it back to front seats, as I usually do. Who knows, maybe worth doing the same in your car, just to be sure?

 

Thanks for the suggestion. I did that without any luck, unfortunately. 

 

15 hours ago, Felix2021 said:

@Giannis20 looking at your picture it seems possible, that foam, when pressed, is pressing against speaker suspension and impacts the sound.

However that doesn't explain why you do not have enough treble, as this is coming from tweeters, that are not blocked by the foam (i assume  ).

Anyway try whatever you can, as really your experience is the opposite of my experience with Focal, so there must be something wrong. Even if they are not the best speakers out there, they are objectively way better than factory speakers.

 

Well, yesterday i removed the passenger's door panel. Immediately the sound improved. I removed the foam from the speaker. Then i did some tests with the wire polarity, I changed the polarity and checked the speaker membrane moves out in the deep bass. I couldn't figure it out for sure, I left it with the change I made and plan to use the car for a day or two without the passenger's door panel.

For sure the sound improved, the treble is mostly heard to a satisfactory degree. And all this just from the changes I made to one door. The driver's door remains as it was. When I finish testing, I'll make the changes to this one as well. 

I can say that, for sure, the foam made some kind of contact with the speaker and was spoiling the sound effect. I don't know why this created a problem in the treble as well (maybe it's the change in polarity that helped with this).

 

Edited 28 March by Giannis20

[Giannis20]

this is photo of my car right now, 😁

 

[bdavbdav]

8 hours ago, Giannis20 said:

.I don't know why this created a problem in the treble as well (maybe it's the change in polarity that helped with this).

 

 

Pushing the limits of my knowledge of speaker design (and indeed physics), when an enclosure is smaller, the electrical impedance of a speaker gets larger. I suspect if the foam is completely blocking it moving properly, the impedance is significantly higher still.
 

Given all the crossover is passive, I would guess If the impedance of the woofer has increased, and the tweeter is the same, the voltage drop over the woofer will be comparatively larger than the tweeter, muting the tweeter further. 
 

 

[Giannis20]

3 hours ago, bdavbdav said:

 

Pushing the limits of my knowledge of speaker design (and indeed physics), when an enclosure is smaller, the electrical impedance of a speaker gets larger. I suspect if the foam is completely blocking it moving properly, the impedance is significantly higher still.
 

Given all the crossover is passive, I would guess If the impedance of the woofer has increased, and the tweeter is the same, the voltage drop over the woofer will be comparatively larger than the tweeter, muting the tweeter further. 
 

 

 

Τhis is a possible explanation, thanks. 

I will "free" and the other speaker (remove the foam) and i will see the results.  

[Felix2021]

Interesting and quite possible theory @bdavbdav. Nice shot, i wouldn't have thought of it.

[Giannis20]

After finding out that the foam somehow spoils the sound quality, I proceeded to the 2nd plan.

 

I removed the speakers, put in rivet nuts and made a 10mm spacer.

 

 

 

I also change the polarity. 

I didn't install the door panels, but the sound is much better, the bass appeared and the treble sounds clear.

Today I will complete the installation and update on the final result.

Edited 31 March by Giannis20

[Felix2021]

Glad you got it sorted

Told ya there must be something wrong, as those Focal's are really nice. But didn't expect it to be the foam

[bdavbdav]

Are the spacers just cut out of dense rubber? Looks neat. 

[Giannis20]

2 hours ago, bdavbdav said:

Are the spacers just cut out of dense rubber? Looks neat. 

 

I made them out of MDF. I spray painted them black. Nothing special.

 

[Giannis20]

3 hours ago, Felix2021 said:

Glad you got it sorted

Told ya there must be something wrong, as those Focal's are really nice. But didn't expect it to be the foam

It seems there were 2 problems. Reverse polarity and foam pressure.

[Felix2021]

Most important question now: are you happy with the sound

[bdavbdav]

@Giannis20 - How exact do you think the 10mm thickness needed to be? For those of us that aren't very good at cutting rings with jigsaws, all I seem to be able to find is 14mm or 20mm spacers to buy.

[Giannis20]

15 hours ago, Felix2021 said:

Most important question now: are you happy with the sound

 

Yes this is now the most important question. 

Well, for sure it is better than the original speakers.  Clear sound and more bass. But i am still missing the loud bass. I know, i couldn't find it without a subwoofer. 

I am happy with that kit, the sound quality improved, without becoming great.

 

 

11 hours ago, bdavbdav said:

@Giannis20 - How exact do you think the 10mm thickness needed to be? For those of us that aren't very good at cutting rings with jigsaws, all I seem to be able to find is 14mm or 20mm spacers to buy.

 

To be honest I don't know if it's really necessary. I noticed the height difference between the factory and the kit speakers and after the foam solution failed, I made the spacers. I ordered them from a carpenter of course, neither can I, I can do something like that myself.

Edited 3 April by Giannis20

[Felix2021]

39 minutes ago, Giannis20 said:

But i am still missing the loud bass. I know, i couldn't find it without a subwoofer. 

Actually those speakers are very capable, and it's relatively easy to achieve strong, deep bass in car due to it's size (low volume/low amount of air that needs to be moved).

In my case another improvement been brought be adding external amplifier. Used Axton 592DSP.

Cannot find my (rough) measurements, but by ear it goes below 30Hz, which is enough for me (mostly listening to rock and metal, so not much going on below this). It's also loud enough, and can be tweaked by using DSP in the amp.

 

Edit: found measurement screenshot. This is done using Android Audio Tool, and never learned how to make really good measurements, so it doesn't have any smoothing, it's very raw. Measurement taken using UMIK-1 mic.

 

As you can see it can go really low, and by tweaking amp's DSP result can be really good.

I prefer it this way, as most subwoofers doesn't really give you that quality of bass, that control (which in case of Focal's combined with Axton is really great, even metal that according to many is recorded poorly, sounds really great). Subwoofer will give you quantity, which might be desirable with some genres of music.

Edited 3 April by Felix2021

[Giannis20]

After a few days and 20 hours of using these speakers, i think I'm not satisfied with the sound of my car.

Of course it's better than with the original speakers,  but it's not at the level i want. 

Thanks for the suggestion using a small DSP amplifier. 

I have never had to use a similar amplifier. Usually in the cars I use, (I have leased cars for 4 years) I change speakers and the result is satisfactory.
But I can't say the same about the OCTAVIA. 

 

 

 

[Felix2021]

Well, amp in head unit is decent, but that's all. That's why external amp brings another improvement. Amp i used is actually Plug And Play, so even in leased car it's not a problem. You can get harness dedicated to VAG car for this amp. You just plug the harness in place of original head unit plug, HU plug to the harness and than to amp. No new wiring needed, no wire cutting, nothing.

One question - have you dampened interior of the doors, behind the speakers? This also brought improvement for me.

[Giannis20]

Yes I did it. as far as my hand could reach from the opening of the speaker, I put soundproofing inside, especially in the area near the speaker.

I'll wait a little while, maybe I'll get used to this sound quality and see for later.
I don't want to give more money for the sound at this stage, I just expected a little better result from the speakers. Anyway, the sound quality is improved, the bass is clear where needed and the resolution is satisfactory. The original speakers are quite cheap in their quality, it seems if you compare them with FOCAL side by side.

 

[Ipwrslv]

I plan to install Pioneer DM G1004, but I found mixed information on cabling, can anyone who installed this amp, or any similar can confirm - do I need any additional cable harness or will it work plug & play with cables it comes with?

[Giannis20]

for sure you need another wiring. 

The wiring needs to have thew quadlock, something like this