MkIV Octavia VRS Audio upgrade - disappointing

[Filternz]

my 2022 Skoda Octavia VRS base stereo upgrade experience to date.

circa 3k NZD

• AMP: Focal 4.320 AMP
• FRONTS: Focal PS165 Flax Evo components (inc passive crossover)
• REARS: FOCAL IS165 co-ax
• SUB: Cerwin Vega UPAS12ST 12" Active sub

Plus cables, amp kit, professional install etc.

I'm not sure where the shop took the audio feeds from / how it was installed but it sounds like a mish-mash of good quality components that just don't come together well... almost worse that stock.

 

My guess, the speaker-level outputs have some EQ on them to make up for cheap OEM speakers. Lack of a clean, flat, line-level output makes it a case of 'garbage in, garbage out'.

 

I was hoping the HU could be coded to output a flat curve line-level output like I did on my BMW, but don't believe that's possible. Possible steps to fix...

 

• Second amp (to enable an active setup and remove the passive cross-overs)
• DSP (Helix?)

I really don't want to have to steam Bluetooth directly to the DSP as I love Apple Carplay, and the beeping for the reverse sensors etc. But it seems the weak link is the HU output.

 

Then... I saw this clip on YouTube, where the guy did the DSP and active setup and it stull sucked. 

That said, all this guy on Youtube really did was add extra mids (sure he changed / added amps, but it was already an active setup to start with, that shouldn't have been necessary at all) and tuned the DSP properly. My opinion, this Golf should not have needed the rebuild that was done on this slip, but someone competent to tune the DSP. It sounds better because he also steams Bluetooth directly to the DSP and he says there is no way to get good sound with high-level inputs (it's a 7 part vlog, 1st and 6th episodes - skip the rest).

 

Open to thoughts? Other peoples experiences?

 

Pics of install below.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BRSEngineer]

I don't get the spend lots on car audio movement. Sorry to say, but I am not a fan of cars on the road providing travelling noise polution. I much prefer those who keep their audio to themselves. Personally I don't see much point in spending 1000s on audio in a car which will always be a compromised envirnonment for quality sound. I know some seek volume above everything else. They will perhaps enjoy sound in middle to later life throgh hearing aids. Some very good digitally tunable ones ont there now. In terms of sound in a car, unless high end sound and noise cancellation has been built in from the start as with very high end motors. The aim of which is not normally sound but its elimination. The result may be better than stock but will always disapoint if purity and perfection is requied. 

 

We all have Personal choice and everyone is different but expensive audio in an average average car is not how i'd spend my money but I fully respect you choice to do so if that is your thing.

 

Enjoy your modifications. its intersting to see what others do. 👍

[TheUltraRunner]

I really like my Canton setup. For my needs it's sufficient. Maybe it lacks just a little bit of bass. Otherwise I'm satisfied. 

[Felix2021]

@Filternz to be honest i think you need to find a better workshop to do that. Getting a result that is worse than stock after upgrade is not that easy to achieve

Why would you mix different series of speakers, and using coax speakers at the back? They will have different characteristics, hence messing up the sound. Would be much better to use same type/series, and using normal speakers with separate tweeters at the back.

I cannot see it on the pics, but is the interior of the door dampened? Any mats inside? That brings improvement.

As for amp, would be much better to use something with MOST interface, compatible with VAG. Probably even original VAG amp would be better.

I think DSP is very much needed, question is if external one, or are you able to find someone that can fiddle with built in DSP. Check this out: https://mqb-blog.com/en/2022/02/21/sound-dataset/

Question is if you can find someone that can make a use out of it?

[timster]

5 hours ago, BRSEngineer said:

I don't get the spend lots on car audio movement. Sorry to say, but I am not a fan of cars on the road providing travelling noise polution. I much prefer those who keep their audio to themselves. Personally I don't see much point in spending 1000s on audio in a car which will always be a compromised envirnonment for quality sound. I know some seek volume above everything else. They will perhaps enjoy sound in middle to later life throgh hearing aids. Some very good digitally tunable ones ont there now. In terms of sound in a car, unless high end sound and noise cancellation has been built in from the start as with very high end motors. The aim of which is not normally sound but its elimination. The result may be better than stock but will always disapoint if purity and perfection is requied. 

 

We all have Personal choice and everyone is different but expensive audio in an average average car is not how i'd spend my money but I fully respect you choice to do so if that is your thing.

Well some people spend more time in their cars and want to enjoy quality music. In one way its an easy environment, since its small and has lots of soft materials.

 

You're talking about noise pollution and hearing aids. Good audio setup does not mean 100% volume

 

I've got a decent setup at home, and i'm always abit frustrated to hear Octavia's Canton. I could  have paid double the price to get more decent speakers/overall system from factory.

[BRSEngineer]

26 minutes ago, timster said:

Well some people spend more time in their cars and want to enjoy quality music. In one way its an easy environment, since its small and has lots of soft materials.

 

You're talking about noise pollution and hearing aids. Good audio setup does not mean 100% volume

 

I've got a decent setup at home, and i'm always abit frustrated to hear Octavia's Canton. I could  have paid double the price to get more decent speakers/overall system from factory.

Respect your choice 

[MP1983]

The stock system is pretty mediocre, so those of us that spend more time driving may want to get it to modest at least.

 

I installed a set of Eton POW 160.2 a few weeks ago as spacing is so tight down there that a driver larger than 165mm shall not fit (wanted to go custom way but most 6.5" hi-fi drivers that have T/S parameters suitable for car door use have a frame that is larger). I only installed the speakers using the supplied inline crossover (a 2.2uF cap on the tweeter...thats about it). The scoop in the mids and lower treble surprised me as I`ve seen a measurement of that system on-axis and while voiced safe on the treble side, it still looked with enough energy in the regions required.

 

The stock tweeter is a 3/4" one with a backchamber and  a single 10uF bipolar cap on it. Even a larger tweeter that can be crossed low (like a SB29RDNC) will likely give the ghost with such setup and a few more watts. So definitely inbuilt equalization.

 

I have a scope (but no time yet) and planned to hook up the car to investigate but posts on the VW Passat and Golf over diymobileaudio showed the cars had dynamic equalization which depended on power fed to the speakers (cut bass output to protect woofer and raise x-over to protect tweeter).

 

An easy way to fix your issies is by replacing the amp with a DSP one that has inbuilt de-eq - Audiotec Fischer have such (match series) and I think Audison Ap series also do. There`s a tiny Kicker Key one that may replace yours but I didn`t see de-eq anywhere in its description (looked it up this morning as I have to fix my issue as well).

[Felix2021]

5 hours ago, timster said:

Well some people spend more time in their cars and want to enjoy quality music. In one way its an easy environment, since its small and has lots of soft materials.

Agree with that. Also like to have good sound in my car, and it's much easier to get good sound in car, due to it's size, materials and irregular shape. Only thing, is that it requires DSP, as you can never sit in the sweet spot

 

5 hours ago, timster said:

i'm always abit frustrated to hear Octavia's Canton

Looking at the photos of the door in your car, i don't think you have/had Canton in your Skoda.

[MP1983]

19 hours ago, Filternz said:

 

I was hoping the HU could be coded to output a flat curve line-level output like I did on my BMW, but don't believe that's possible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is if you have someone with Vag-Com but Skoda won`t be happy of it

[Filternz]

2 hours ago, MP1983 said:

It is if you have someone with Vag-Com but Skoda won`t be happy of it

Ooo! How? Is it easy? Neighbour has an Audi R8 and does a bunch with vagcom. If I can get a flat-eq line level output that could save a word of pain and cost. I think one of the other responses is correct; it has dynamic eq. 

[Filternz]

2 hours ago, MP1983 said:

The stock system is pretty mediocre, so those of us that spend more time driving may want to get it to modest at least.

 

I installed a set of Eton POW 160.2 a few weeks ago as spacing is so tight down there that a driver larger than 165mm shall not fit (wanted to go custom way but most 6.5" hi-fi drivers that have T/S parameters suitable for car door use have a frame that is larger). I only installed the speakers using the supplied inline crossover (a 2.2uF cap on the tweeter...thats about it). The scoop in the mids and lower treble surprised me as I`ve seen a measurement of that system on-axis and while voiced safe on the treble side, it still looked with enough energy in the regions required.

 

The stock tweeter is a 3/4" one with a backchamber and  a single 10uF bipolar cap on it. Even a larger tweeter that can be crossed low (like a SB29RDNC) will likely give the ghost with such setup and a few more watts. So definitely inbuilt equalization.

 

I have a scope (but no time yet) and planned to hook up the car to investigate but posts on the VW Passat and Golf over diymobileaudio showed the cars had dynamic equalization which depended on power fed to the speakers (cut bass output to protect woofer and raise x-over to protect tweeter).

 

An easy way to fix your issies is by replacing the amp with a DSP one that has inbuilt de-eq - Audiotec Fischer have such (match series) and I think Audison Ap series also do. There`s a tiny Kicker Key one that may replace yours but I didn`t see de-eq anywhere in its description (looked it up this morning as I have to fix my issue as well).

Great reply thanks. I think you’re right re: dynamic eq. The little Focal amp seems to crack. I don’t listen to it loud at all, I just wanted well rounded decent sound and a modest volume. Was thinking a helix 6channel dsp in front of the focal amp, change the focal amps 4 channels RTX just drive the front doors and tweeters in an active setup. Power the rears for fill off the HU, and get tuned. 

[Felix2021]

14 minutes ago, Filternz said:

Ooo! How? Is it easy?

 

9 hours ago, Felix2021 said:

Check this out: https://mqb-blog.com/en/2022/02/21/sound-dataset/

Question is if you can find someone that can make a use out of it?

 

No, it's not that easy, as it's not a simple coding/adaptation.

Have you tried easy solution/test - power all the speakers using head unit amp? Just to see if Focal amp is not messing up the sound?

Edited 29 October, 2022 by Felix2021

[zetzet]

14 hours ago, TheUltraRunner said:

I really like my Canton setup. For my needs it's sufficient. Maybe it lacks just a little bit of bass. Otherwise I'm satisfied. 

Canton is definitely good. It's accurate and clear. Sound insulation in the car is also excellent for the class of the car. The only thing it lacks is deep bass, but that's not actually required to enjoy most music genres. After all most people listen to music on bookshelf speakers or smaller, which do not go down low either.

 

Oh and I almost forgot, you can turn up the volume and nothing rattles. I think a lot of people take this for granted. 🤣

Edited 29 October, 2022 by zetzet

[MP1983]

13 hours ago, zetzet said:

 After all most people listen to music on bookshelf speakers or smaller, which do not go down low either.

 

 🤣

Its not that simple. In a house where its silent even a small 13cm woofer in a ported enclosure may sometimes be sufficient for some, for example if placed near a wall. That while keeping in mind a small home 13cm woofer may often have a stroke of 7-8mm one way and low Fs, where a car unit would be far away of this. In a car the small speaker would usually be sealed so requiring two things: 1. dsp to help it produce more decibels lower and cut off below 50Hz so it doesn`t bottom out, 2. a large excursion high power sub. When you start moving road noise would suppress some of that bass so you`d need more of the above. And for a small unit to go low it would have to trade off sensitivity - and that means it needs more power. I believe the unit in the Canton is not designed to go low but to add a few Hz below the fronts which are quite anemic anyways. If you want better low - you can try a Peerless SLS 6.5" or a Tangband W6-1139 in the same Canton enclosure but these are not sensitive drivers.

Edited 30 October, 2022 by MP1983

[Felix2021]

13 hours ago, zetzet said:

The only thing it lacks is deep bass, but that's not actually required to enjoy most music genres.

That's not entirely correct. There are cases, where deep bass is important. Listen to i.e. Charlie Haden on a setup that lacks deep bass, and you loose a lot.

There's one song on latest Rammstein record - Meine Trennen, where base guitar actually leads in a way. In (non Canton) O4 it misses a lot, compared to better/good setup.

What is interesting, is that my wife's Ibiza 6J can produce deeper bass from factory speakers, just using Pioneer AVH-Z9200DAB head unit with DSP.

 

13 hours ago, zetzet said:

After all most people listen to music on bookshelf speakers or smaller, which do not go down low either.

Maybe for most people it's enough, but not for all.

I have bookshelf speakers - Monitor Audio Gold 100 5G. Connected to Arcam SA30 and using Dirac Live DSP, they can go down to 25Hz -6dB.

[PetrolDave]

14 hours ago, zetzet said:

The only thing it lacks is deep bass, but that's not actually required to enjoy most music genres.

Trty listening to the title music of Masterchef - my brother has a soundbar with a separate subwoofer but my soundbar doesn't - and on his you hear a deep bass sound that is totally absent on my setup. It's such a difference that I have a new soundbar setup on my wish list...

[Felix2021]

@Filternz were you able to tune your setup to sound good?

I'm planning to replace speakers for now, to Focal IS VW 155 or 165. Haven't decided yet. Would prefer 165, but am not 100% sure if they will fit. Should, but...

[MP1983]

22 hours ago, Felix2021 said:

@Filternz were you able to tune your setup to sound good?

I'm planning to replace speakers for now, to Focal IS VW 155 or 165. Haven't decided yet. Would prefer 165, but am not 100% sure if they will fit. Should, but...

Before you buy it, I got in touch with Focal about the same system some months ago. They told me it won`t fit the NX5 because the connector is different. Maybe worth asking them if the set has been updated since then. I can picture the ones I have as I put them in storage (original ones with the connector).

Edited 4 November, 2022 by MP1983

[Felix2021]

Thanks for the heads up, but i already know about the connector, as was studying the photos and documentation

It's actually easy to work around this.

Either one can make an adapter to leave factory cabling intact, or replace the connector on car side.

Connector needed for Focal speakers is 1J0972704. Connector in the car uses same contacts, but in different plug. So it's one possibility - buy 2 of those plugs and just move the connectors with cables.

Another possibility is buy 2x 1J0972704 and 2x 1J0972712. 1J0972712 is a socket for factory plug used in Octavia. This way one can make own adapter.

Only question is about speaker sizes. But i have decided i will buy one 165mm version and one 155mm version. 155 will fit for sure, but i'll try with 165. If 165 fits in the front, a will use it, and install 155mm in the back.

If however 165mm doesn't fit, will try it in the back. If no luck, we just install 155mm for the front for now, and replace 165mm with 155. Will be buying from Amazon, so return should not be an issue.

BTW - i took plugs part numbers from ETKA, and they match all the photos i found, so am pretty sure it will work.

[MP1983]

Hi there,

 

I did a third thing - slightly removing the insulation for a small section of the wires above the connector - the wiring there is wrapped in soft tape (the black cloth one, don`t know its name). Then you can solder plain wires there, insulated re-wrap and leave the stock connector hanging in case you want to go back.

 

On the speaker size - I fitted 165mm without hassle using Golf 6/7 6.5" adapters (thanks DutchVRS, as he tried them first and told me they fit). You also don`t need to cover the mid opening as it is in the door panel and insulated (kind of, more on this later) from the back chamber of the woofer. For the chamber itself, Skoda have gone for a full panel for the window regulator which attaches to extra metal left on the door, so the door does not need sealing but for one point - some cabling that exits close to the woofer (you`ll see it) has a small gap. That would cause the woofer in the door to:

1. behave like in an a-periodic loading so more controlled cone excursion and less peaky below 100hz but would also reduce the amount of bass they can output. See Variovent (Scanspeak sold it under this name, effectively its a plastic frame with resistive material in it) and how it models.

2. leak some air that may push your mid if you use one and that will both distort the sound and may also damage the mid in some rare cases.

 

I say if you use mid as you can add one to the IS but looking at its position in the door, without DSP I don`t see it working - its too far from the w-t plane, unfortunately. Faital make a really nice one - 3FE26 and its also highish in Qts so will work well in this environment. No idea if it fits, however.

 

 

 

[Felix2021]

Of course soldering new cables to existing ones is another option, but i just wanted to show how Focal speakers can be made plug and play

I'm not planning to use mids. A bit too much hassle for my taste. Adding mids means adding crossover, which means running new cabling to tweeter (if it's meant to be done right), would be also good to add some amp, dsp which can be tuned etc.

Respect everyone that does that, but it's just too much hassle for me

I have deadened door inside and it already made a big difference. Now even the stock system sounds more or less ok. But it can be better, and it lacks at the bottom end.

I'm hoping that simple speaker replacement to those Focals will improve bass extension and sound quality in general, which it should. MAYBE in the future i will add some PnP amp, but am not sure yet.

[MP1983]

If you change the speakers only you`d run into the same problem as we did - the adaptive stock equalization will likely ruin everything. And Focals (except the K2 Power series) are not that bassy. if you want bass, look for a driver that has a Qts of around 0.55-0.6 and as low Fs as possible. For the tweeter you should add a cap anyways (for DC protection mostly), so crossover will be there The stock tweeter is connected through a plastic connector close to the windshield (its hidden in foam) but on the other end is soldered and has a small 10uF electrolytic cap to it.

[Felix2021]

I'm assuming adaptive EQ should not be a big problem, as impedance curve should be similar, except of course for different peak in Fs area. Focal is selling those speakers as dedicated for i.e. Golf 8, which has exactly same MIB3 unit (thus also amp) as O4. Guessing they know, what they are doing, but let's see

Adaptive EQ can be a bigger problem in case of using external high level input amp without dummy load.

I'm not looking for anything bassy, just want a bit deeper bass extension. According to Focal IS VW 165 goes down to 60Hz -3dB, but i assume it will go a bit lower in dampened doors. Should be enough to hear some of that bass guitar, but not for organ music

Cap is already there in case of Focal's separate sets, so no problem here. It's plug and play using stock cabling and plugs.

My thinking is that Focal will be plug and play, and should be improvement from stock speakers. First of all due to much better speaker quality, and second due to bigger mid-bass in the front (hopefully it fits).

I was actually surprised, as new Leon sounds much, much better in stock than O4. Recently checked, and it has same sh*ty drivers, just that mid-bass is 20cm instead of 15,5 in O4. Additionally Leon has 5 way EQ vs 3way in O4, which also helps. But difference is really huge.

If i can get similar quality as stock in Leon, i will be pleased. As said before - for "critical listening" i has rather nice set at home.

[MP1983]

The EQ has nothing to do with the impedance curve, it essentially is a variable active crossover imputing a transfer function tailored to the freq response of the drivers used. It also cuts the low end to protect the woofer from overexcursion. But cars are not for music anyways  

 

Interesting what you say about the Leon, as unit should be the same. I wonder if a software unlock could trigger the 5-band EQ.

Edited 6 November, 2022 by MP1983

[Felix2021]

To be honest i think there's not much "active" about this EQ. It's probably just a set of pre-programmed EQ settings dependent on speaker frequency response, it's impadance, amplifier limitations and volume. It's there to compensate for speaker deficiencies, but also limit speaker distortions and amp clipping.

Having a similar load impedance curve should help to avoid amp clipping.

I might be wrong though.

Issues with using amp with high level inputs might come from the fact, that every amp has rather high distortion at very low power levels. But again - might be wrong though, am not really into car audio area. Don't know what load is presented by amp like Focal Impulse. I know, that Focal is selling "Speaker Simulator", which is a dummy load to be used in conjunction with Impulse amp.

I know, that many people are replacing their factory fitted speakers in different VAG cars with Focals, and majority is happy with their sound, describing it as improvement, although to a different degree. Probably requires fiddling with EQ, but factory speakers also do, so...

 

As for Leon - VAG is mostly using same components with different software. Many things could probably be unlocked, but question is if it's easy to do? Might be, that to have 5 way EQ, you would have to change settings of your MIB3 unit to present itself as Leon or A3. Question is, if that would work properly with other components set to Skoda? Hard to say really.

What i know for sure, is that they are messing up a lot with software. Previously i had Ateca with Beats Sound System. Ordered Beats, as i wanted best possible factory sound. Well, it was a mistake. Turned out, that my version was only one without DSP (Sound Focus option). Normal sound system had DSP no matter which headunit there was, Beats with Navi High (the one with HDD) had DSP, and Beats with Navi without HDD was the only one that didn't have it, although technically it was possible, as headunit was the same as with normal sound system, that had it, and amp was same as in Beats with Navi High option. Either way system turned out to be worse than normal system. Only thing it did better was ability to play louder, but otherwise frequence response was more or less the same, sub didn't have basically any effect, and imaging was worse due to lack of DSP.

So yes, VAG MIB capabilities are 99% software dependent.