National Identity Cards - What's the objection?

[@Lee]

Why is there such a strong opposition to National Identity cards and what is the reasoning behind the objection to ID cards?

They were introduced originally in WWII and after the end of that, Churchill strongly objected to them.
A Churchill fanboi once said “on the streets of London, or in any other venue, public or private, to produce my ID card as evidence that I am who I say I am, when I have done nothing wrong and am simply ambling along and breathing God’s fresh air like any other freeborn Englishman, then I will take that card out of my wallet and physically eat it in the presence of whatever emanation of the state has demanded I produce it.”

 

In the wake of 9/11 Labour tried to reintroduce them but they were voted down. 'Civil liberties' or something. I've had one in Germany for a few years now and not once have my civil liberties been infringed upon. (unless you count the woman at the Post Office asking me for ID to collect a parcel and infringement)

 

But what is the objection? I genuinely don't get it. 

[KenONeill]

7 hours ago, @Lee said:

 

But what is the objection? I genuinely don't get it

If you go out without your wallet (or whatever where you carry your id card) you are breaking a law that was created by the local snivel service. Point adequately clear?

[@Lee]

3 hours ago, KenONeill said:

If you go out without your wallet (or whatever where you carry your id card) you are breaking a law that was created by the local snivel service. Point adequately clear?

No. Seeing as there are no laws surrounding ID cards yet, you've made that up.

[KenONeill]

1 hour ago, @Lee said:

No. Seeing as there are no laws surrounding ID cards yet, you've made that up.

The best time to object to a law is during the consultation stage(s). I thought you'd realise this.

[J.R.]

Here in France you have to by law have an ID card but are not obliged by law to carry it, not that I have yet found one single French person who does not think they do have to carry it by law even after me printing out and showing them the relevant texts.

 

My ex just like every other French person male or female would leave their valuables in the car to go to the beach but take with them what to me was the most valuable thing to a thief, their ID card which would be left under their towel when they swam. I could never make her rationalise that at the swimming pool she would leave it in the vestiare.

 

One sunday morning we walked 10 minutes to church for her Messe and then had to turn round and go back to her house because she had forgotten her ID card.

 

Just to be clear ID cards are not checked to go into a church, she was fearfull of the place being raided for un contrôle d'identité.

[J.R.]

Actually the above is not true, as I am not a naturalised French citizen yet I don't have a CNID and I'm pretty sure that the French nationals who are conscientious objectors that refuse to do their days course on citoyenneté at 18 which replaced National Service dont get one and are alos not allowed to take their driving test, perhaps due to the lack on a CNID.

[@Lee]

33 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Here in France you have to by law have an ID card but are not obliged by law to carry it,

Same in Germany. I've left the house without my wallet plenty of times (which is where most people keep their ID card) but I never stress about it. I know that if for whatever reason I need to show it (i.e in an accident) then I know it's at home. SWMBO has left her purse at home quite a few times but she never comes back panicking about her ID.

 

What's CNID?

 

37 minutes ago, KenONeill said:

The best time to object to a law is during the consultation stage(s). I thought you'd realise this.

I do - that's why I said you're basing your opinion on a non existent law.

Edited 18 April, 2023 by @Lee

[Ttaskmaster]

With the amount of complaining from people who can't access stuff because they refuse to get a driving licence, passport, credit card, mobile phone or any of the other things that facilitate services these days, I can see why ID cards are another possibility.

 

The question was asked elsewhere, with this as an interesting response:

"Is there any evidence to suggest that those countries which operate an ID card scheme do not experience the same problems that identity cards supposedly will solve? Also, if the UK government is planning to spend billions of pounds to make country safer, would UK voters feel better about introducing a compulsory ID card or spending the money on policing resources? "

 

 

[@Lee]

2 hours ago, Ttaskmaster said:

With the amount of complaining from people who can't access stuff because they refuse to get a driving licence, passport, credit card, mobile phone or any of the other things that facilitate services these days, I can see why ID cards are another possibility.

 

The question was asked elsewhere, with this as an interesting response:

"Is there any evidence to suggest that those countries which operate an ID card scheme do not experience the same problems that identity cards supposedly will solve? Also, if the UK government is planning to spend billions of pounds to make country safer, would UK voters feel better about introducing a compulsory ID card or spending the money on policing resources? "

 

 

Voting for one - one ID card rather than the preposterous multiple forms of ID that's been introduced (Oyster card OK for some but not others).

EU nationals travelling in the EU you don't need a passport - they can fly to and fro in the Schengen countries (possibly other EU countries as well. SWMBO pre 2020 could travel to and fro non Schengen UK on her ID card)

Germany; 

Regular passport (younger than 24 years) €58.50

Regular passport (24 years and older) €81.00

Identity Card until the age of 24 valid for 6 years €52.80

Identity Card 24 years and older valid for 10 years €67.00

 

I doubt an ID card costs €67 to make so will more than likely make the Govt. some money. I don't know what you mean by the 'cost of policing it' but they don't employ coppers to wander the streets asking randoms to show their ID  

 

One of probably many benefits, nipping out for a pack of smokes when the shops are shut.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 18 April, 2023 by @Lee

[KenONeill]

@@Lee I'm still waiting for you to tell us what the "problems" that an ID card will "solve" are. For an advanced solution with extra credit, tell us now the card will solve these problems. "(Hint - Personation at elections is not a problem, despite what the Con party claim)

[@Lee]

2 minutes ago, KenONeill said:

@@Lee I'm still waiting for you to tell us what the "problems" that an ID card will "solve" are. For an advanced solution with extra credit, tell us now the card will solve these problems. "(Hint - Personation at elections is not a problem, despite what the Con party claim)

 

Er, did you read the title, Ken? I'm asking the community 'what's the objection'.

[Baxlin]

I carried an RAF Form 1250 (ID card) throughout my RAF career - it was a chargeable offence not to be able to produce it when challenged.  
 

Carrying it was never a problem, just the opposite at times, it got me into many a civilian ‘members and guests only’ club, so I don’t see a problem, except the cost of implementing and running such a scheme for which arguably there is no need.

[J.R.]

6 hours ago, @Lee said:

What's CNID?

Not sure whether it was a typo due to my present vision problems or brain fade, it should have been CNI - Carte Nationale d'Identité.

 

Its a safe bet in Frnch that any acronyms will be reversed, SIDA for AIDS , ONU for UN etc etc

 

sorry for any tyôs

[Ootohere]

The UK Government like it as it is that the actual numbers in the UK is unknown. 

 

On the media today there are those that are Campaigning on 'Medical Cannabis cards'  in the UK.

Easily checked by 'Police Officers'.

 

'Cancard' 

          Photo ID.   Hopefully when you have one of these you have to give up your Photo Driving Licence.     

Stuff online warning doctors not to be involved in the scheme.

There is various stuff from the Met Police online on the subject / cards.

 

There is a Daily Fail article on them from 2021.    A search Nearly 20,000 Britons are using £20 'cannabis cards' that are available without prescription....

 

Surely if driving and have one that earns you a Drugs Wipe.

 

 

Edited 20 April, 2023 by toot

[EnterName]

On 18/04/2023 at 00:01, @Lee said:

Why is there such a strong opposition to National Identity cards and what is the reasoning behind the objection to ID cards?

They were introduced originally in WWII and after the end of that, Churchill strongly objected to them.
A Churchill fanboi once said “on the streets of London, or in any other venue, public or private, to produce my ID card as evidence that I am who I say I am, when I have done nothing wrong and am simply ambling along and breathing God’s fresh air like any other freeborn Englishman, then I will take that card out of my wallet and physically eat it in the presence of whatever emanation of the state has demanded I produce it.”

 

In the wake of 9/11 Labour tried to reintroduce them but they were voted down. 'Civil liberties' or something. I've had one in Germany for a few years now and not once have my civil liberties been infringed upon. (unless you count the woman at the Post Office asking me for ID to collect a parcel and infringement)

 

But what is the objection? I genuinely don't get it. 

Seems it doesn't take much time living in Germany to go from lefty idealist to "Papers please!" authoritarian. 😄

[Ttaskmaster]

On 18/04/2023 at 15:40, @Lee said:

 I don't know what you mean by the 'cost of policing it' but they don't employ coppers to wander the streets asking randoms to show their ID

No, it was more like - "Here's some money with which to make you safer. Would it be better spent on ID cards, or on more Police?"

[@Lee]

On 21/04/2023 at 12:01, Ttaskmaster said:

No, it was more like - "Here's some money with which to make you safer. Would it be better spent on ID cards, or on more Police?"

I think I already mentioned that it would be likely to make money which would help pay for more police. Would you spend a £1 for a cheap smoke alarm or £1.01 on a better smoke alarm? 

Apropos of nothing, the government today announced something about police numbers.

That was quickly rebuffed by Fact check.

 

Edited 26 April, 2023 by @Lee

[Ttaskmaster]

11 hours ago, @Lee said:

I think I already mentioned that it would be likely to make money which would help pay for more police. Would you spend a £1 for a cheap smoke alarm or £1.01 on a better smoke alarm? 

 

How would it make money, though?

The cost of cards can't be too high or no-one will buy them... but the acceptable purchase price is unlikely to fund the production costs, the administration, the database maintenance, the regulation, the policing of the cards and all the other changes to factor them in.

So the argument presented was that, instead of ID cards we just spend the money on Police resources. To use your analogy, do we spend the money putting a bloke on Fire Watch inside every household, or do we buy every household a smoke alarm?

[EnterName]

On 27/04/2023 at 00:17, @Lee said:

I think I already mentioned that it would be likely to make money which would help pay for more police.

I'm sure that would work just as well as the "road tax" which was going to give us better roads.

Watching people flip-flop between utter contempt of the government and having blind faith in the government is fascinating.

ID cars might raise some money, but unless they were particularly expensive, the bureaucracy required to administer and oversee them would far outstrip the money raised from making the public pay for them.

As a "jobs for the boys" scheme though, I can see the appeal.

[Ootohere]

It is 'Vehicle Excise Duty' and not all motorised vehicles on roads need to have that, there is 'free from VED'. 

 

National Insurance as paid in the UK does not necessarily go to paying for the NHS in the UK. 

 

 But a National Insurance card for all residing in the UK and paying or not paying taxes and entitled to the Public Services or even not entitled to them is just 'simply clever'.

 

People need a Library Card, Council Tax / Rent Card, Travel Card, NHS Card, Parking Permit, recycle yard access card etc etc.

Some Councils & Local Authorities have Smart Cards with these things on them for Residents / Council tax payers or non payers,

 

Not Rocket science getting Nation Wide systems in the 4 UK countries or just covering the UK. 

 

http://young.scot/the-young-scot-card

http://getyournec.scot/nec/

 

http://dundeecity.gov.uk/national-entitlement-card/national-entitlement-card-nec

 

Edited 28 April, 2023 by toot

[EnterName]

1 minute ago, toot said:

It is 'Vehicle Excise Duty' and not all motorised vehicles on roads need to have that, there is 'free from VED'. 

Yes, it's vehicle excise duty, but everyone knows what the "road tax" is. Nobody "duties" their vehicle for 6 or 12 months.

 

But my point remains: claiming an ID scheme would raise more money than it would cost to administer is not credible.

Beyond the cost of simply running the system, there's also the cost issues caused by identity card fraud: Detecting it, losses arising from abuse, etc.

[Ootohere]

@EnterNameNo idea of your age / generation, but times move on and many drivers now will never have seen or ever purchased a Tax Disc.

Some will not carry cash or even cards as they do it on a phone, online, and even with a chip in their wrist when paying or accessing services / clubs etc.

 

Pets and animals / livestock get chipped or tagged and the systems / registrations are on databases and all traceability is there.

Even fuels and liquids have markers in that give traceability.   Security tags, smart water etc, even the Police stamping push bikes etc happens and can be free by some forces and local authorities.  Tax payer funded. 

 

But you are just wrong & then wrong on cards.   It is the UK Government that can not organise a pith up in a brewery, as well as devolved governments.

Local authorities or regions can often do things more economically when Government Ministers are not involved. 

 

Saying that there was the Orange Badge Scheme and now the Blue Badge Scheme and some pay nothing or near nothing and in my Council Area (Angus) it is £20 every three years. 

 

 Head for thinking and feet for dancing, and not foot in mouth.

 

Because when i worked with Dundee City Council Libraries & Community Service we were at the start of issuing these Smart Cards, and that was over 20 years ago.

It was not costly because it used staff and facilities that were all ready there and used for various functions.

Then you have the likes of Dundee with University & Colleges and they spend the first week getting things like cards issued, visiting council offices and public libraries etc.

Much easier to simplify things.  It is many many decades now that Students get 'martriculation'. 

 

...............

The UK is so disjointed.

Births / Deaths & Marriages, NHS Number, PAYE, NI.

HMRC & DWP / Universal Credit, Housing benefits with Local Authorities. 

Passport got & Paid for, renewal of that, Driving licence & renewals, Blue Badges, vehicle registrations, different agencies / crown agencies or Government or local authorities that do not always share info, and each might be civil servant o commercial / private profit making. Then the NHS, Education, Care, Social work, courts, policing, travel all doing the same or different things for admin and identification in various ways, or just in a hopeless way.

You get a Passport and pay and renew and pay, same with driving licences and vehicle VED. 

 

 

Edited 28 April, 2023 by toot

[EnterName]

1 hour ago, toot said:

No idea of your age / generation, but times move on and many drivers now will never have seen or ever purchased a Tax Disc.

As I said, nobody "duties" their car. Even the government manages to call a spade a spade on this issue.

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-tax

 

1 hour ago, toot said:

But you are just wrong & then wrong on cards.   It is the UK Government that can not organise a pith up in a brewery, as well as devolved governments.

Local authorities or regions can often do things more economically when Government Ministers are not involved. 

 

Saying that there was the Orange Badge Scheme and now the Blue Badge Scheme and some pay nothing or near nothing and in my Council Area (Angus) it is £20 every three years. 

 

 Head for thinking and feet for dancing, and not foot in mouth.

 

Because when i worked with Dundee City Council Libraries & Community Service we were at the start of issuing these Smart Cards, and that was over 20 years ago.

It was not costly because it used staff and facilities that were all ready there and used for various functions.

Then you have the likes of Dundee with University & Colleges and they spend the first week getting things like cards issued, visiting council offices and public libraries etc.

Much easier to simplify things.  It is many many decades now that Students get 'martriculation'. 

 

Aye! There's the rub: we're talking about a national identity card.

Local councils can do things very well, and some local councils do things very badly.

Sensible affluent people live in areas with councils that run things well. Poor people get stuck in areas with councils that do things badly.

However we are all stuck with a government civil service that doesn't seem able to do things on time and/or within budget, and we can't vote them out of power.

Hence my reluctance to ask them to do anything new, especially if it's mandatory and I'm going to be asked to pay for it.

[@Lee]

@tootDriving licences, ID cards & passports and more are dealt with by local municipalities (county councils would be the equivalent I guess) here. 

Seems to work quite well IME.

 

@Ttaskmaster Can I take it that your only objection is cost? 

Edited 28 April, 2023 by @Lee

[mac11irl]

just an across the puddle perspective..

we also dont have a national ID card law or requirement. 

however.... if you wish to access pu luc services - driving licence renewal, social welfare, medical card access to treatment - all of these services now require you to hold a Public Service card...