ULEZ and other similar schemes we are being told are all about clean air for everybody but are they really just a means of making money from motorists?

[@Lee]

4 hours ago, J.R. said:

 

IIRC it was EU4 and the MK1 before it was EU3, I may have got that wrong, the MK2 had a PD engine, no DPF, no regens or any of that nonsense.

I was convinced the MkII's with BXE, CAYC and CFCH diesels had DPFs but I admit my knowledge of the Octavia range is limited. 

Maybe those engines were in the FL range.

 

[J.R.]

Mine was a BKC, a proper tractor!

 

At least one of the other codes I think I recognise as the common rail engine, it was that I thought I was buying, the car was advertsised as a 2.0 TDi and not a 1.9tdi. I only test drove it for a very short distance as according to the garage report it had a broken engine block, I didn't even go through all the gears.

 

Driving home I had difficulty selecting 6th gear which the 2.0 TDi would have, then I saw the gearknob pictogram showed 5 gears didn't stop me keep grabbing for the gear though 😁

 

When I got home and looked at the paperwork properly the V5 showed it as a 1.9TDi, all the garage service paperwork was written 2.0 TDi and if it were not for the advertised "ice cold AC" being non existant I would have believed the retired owners genuinely believed it was a 2.0 TDi.

 

It was still one of the best bargain deals I have ever done though, the "broken cylinder block" was simply a broken engine mounting fixing on the alloy alternator bracket, a £20 second hand Ebay one was with me the very next day.

[BTandSid]

17 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Does that not suggest that it is more about money than clean air?

 

Incidently public transport in London is also not fit for purpose if you need to visit other areas of London by bus, there is the Superloop express service which runs around London between the fringes and central London and it takes 9 hours to go end to end as this video shows, weekday and notice the apparent lack of traffic in the video as well.

 

From what I’ve read on local forums the section running here in the south-east (SL3?) from Thamesmead to Bromley is reckoned by its users to be a success since although it duplicates other existing routes it stops far less and there’s no need to change buses. The main criticism seems to be that for the majority of the route there’s no dedicated bus lane and so delayed in the traffic

 

[Graham Butcher]

If anyone has any doubts that the air quality we have in London and in fact anywhere in the UK is actually far better today and that has nothing to do with ULEZ and other similar schemes should watch this short 3 minute film of a road trip to Heathrow airport, shot in the 1960s. Observe the clear uncongested road, bugger all traffic but look at the air, the pollution is there, highly visible, hiding in plain sight.

 

 

[Ootohere]

POWER STATIONS, Coal fired, Oil fired.  Where did cities get their electricity?  & then Town Gas. Fire Places.

How did the Millions in London get energy and heat? 

 

& maybe look at Edinburgh back in the first half of the last century.

Auld Reekie. 

 Blackened Buildings. yet there were Electric Milk floats with Tam Connery and his like out and about and filthy filthy busses.

Lots of coal being burned in power stations, homes and factories, hospitals etc.

 

Many now no longer here to remember those good old days as they are dead, and not from old age. 

 

Edited 19 April by Rooted

[Graham Butcher]

Well it looks like I was right, according to the UK Government the UK had already met and beaten the NOX target levels in 2022, so low emissions zones are about revenue creation. I have been saying for a long time that our air was very clean as well as ICE engines have been getting far cleaner for decades.

 

Emissions of air pollutants in the UK - Summary - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

 

Emissions of air pollutants in the UK – Nitrogen oxides (NOx) - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

 

 

 

 

Edited 23 April by Graham Butcher

[lol-lol]

9 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Well it looks like I was right, according to the UK Government the UK had already met and beaten the NOX target levels in 2022, so low emissions zones are about revenue creation. I have been saying for a long time that our air was very clean as well as ICE engines have been getting far cleaner for decades.

 

Emissions of air pollutants in the UK - Summary - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

 

Emissions of air pollutants in the UK – Nitrogen oxides (NOx) - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

 

 

 

 

 

NOX is broadly heading the right way and is not being tightened up and same with HC.  

It seems PMs, particularly PM 2.5 seem to be the most worrying pollutant currently and Euro 7 looks to address this my stopping cars being made who do not have regen brakes or at least reversible generator/alternator tech which saves a bit on emissions ie mild hybrid.

 

I would have thought there would be stricter quality on both brake components and tyres to emit less PMs.  EV brake components can last 200k miles or more as they are used so little compared to regen, some but less so with hybrids, full or mild.     

 

[Ootohere]

What a load of b0ll0cks on BEV brakes.

Some quality brakes might be lasting longer, front discs and rear drums, rear wheel drive or all wheel drive.

But then there are all BEV, from Stellantis when there is cars are built on the same platform as the ICE cars and have they same brake parts, pads & discs that rust and need replacing not from doing miles, but not getting used much with the brake pedal and the e-brake not really usable to clean them off.

 

The pads are getting some wear and there is lots rust dust.

 

My Vauxhall Corsa Electric got the 3rd set of discs fitted before going to a new owners after it's 1st MOT.

Just the same crap as fitted to ICE cars. 

As they were when OEM tyres were changed a week after i got the car, and then like ****e beforethe first winter was over, 

Edited 24 April by Rooted

[Graham Butcher]

2 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

NOX is broadly heading the right way and is not being tightened up and same with HC.  

It seems PMs, particularly PM 2.5 seem to be the most worrying pollutant currently and Euro 7 looks to address this my stopping cars being made who do not have regen brakes or at least reversible generator/alternator tech which saves a bit on emissions ie mild hybrid.

 

I would have thought there would be stricter quality on both brake components and tyres to emit less PMs.  EV brake components can last 200k miles or more as they are used so little compared to regen, some but less so with hybrids, full or mild.     

 

So, you don't mind being lied to then? First it was the CO2 that was the enemy, then after engineers found ways to reduce the levels emitted, NOX then became bad boy and we are having to pay LEZ tax if our cars don't meet preset levels, now it has been proven that is not the case, PM2. 5 becomes the bad boy. 

 

I think again it can be proven that the levels are well within safe limits. 

 

I have posted links before to a site where all this is tracked and recorded, included PM10 and it shows the above to be correct. 

[Ootohere]

&.

 That will still be too much pollution. 

I do wish people would sniff their tail pipes more often.   Actually lay down at the tail of the car and have a rest as the Diesels do a regen when a car is sitting idling fast. 

 

I am not suggesting 'sewage' side.  The dirty way out.    But why are the exhaust systems leaking into the car an issue, and why is it not sensible to run a vaccum cleaner pipe from the exhaust into the cabin of the vehicle?

 

Edited 24 April by Rooted

[Winston_Woof]

well based on this FOI request officially only one death in England and Wales in the period 2001 to 2021 had exposure to air pollution (International Classification of Diseases, Tenth revision (ICD-10) code Z581) recorded on the death certificate.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/ukdeathsrelatingtoexposuretopollutionorpoorairquality

Noted the disclaimer that It is unusual for wider contextual factors, such as exposure to pollution or air quality, to be recorded among the causes of death

[Winston_Woof]

I'm curious

Why does FOE track ethnicity on its Air Pollution Hotspot map??

https://friendsoftheearth.uk/climate/air-pollution

 

 

Edited 24 April by Winston_Woof

[Ootohere]

Smoking, over eating, drinking too much alcohol should possibly be on more death certificates. Vaping might be appearing more often.

 

Are people saying that the Sugar tax is wrong, and are they saying that there is no need to reduce pollution in the UK?

From Aircraft, Power Stations & Vehicles or from other sources that it can be reduced from.

[Winston_Woof]

as Mark Twain said: “There are 3 kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.”

[Ootohere]

Carry on and stay calm then.  We all die of something.  Some more painfully than others.

Remember that if you ever end up needing oxygen delivered to your home. Maybe these days in an Electric Van. 

 

Lots of the high reading streets in Scotland are where bus stations / depots are and bus stop areas and taxi ranks. 

High Buildings around, or low ground and in the built up / busy areas, not on the edge of town. 

Not rocket science.

 

We can forget the Paper Mill as that closed.

The Carbon Capture Scheme ans Peterhead is long discussed and much money spent holding competitions to have whatever where ever.

Grangemouth / Ineos will be changing, partially closing, and others are likely to go the same way. 

 

2016.

Edited 24 April by Rooted

[lol-lol]

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

So, you don't mind being lied to then? First it was the CO2 that was the enemy, then after engineers found ways to reduce the levels emitted, NOX then became bad boy and we are having to pay LEZ tax if our cars don't meet preset levels, now it has been proven that is not the case, PM2. 5 becomes the bad boy. 

 

I think again it can be proven that the levels are well within safe limits. 

 

I have posted links before to a site where all this is tracked and recorded, included PM10 and it shows the above to be correct. 

 

Its called scientific progress.  As our science improves we learn more about what harms us, what trigger cancer and respiratory diseases.

The UKs "safe" levels are twice what the WHO recommends as "safe" levels. 

Living near busy road junctions clearly has increased risks of the above medical issues , places we often have our schools sadly.

 

We must keep "driving" the known dangerous pollutants down. NOX and PMs are realtime pollutants that can trigger respiratory attacks that kill in minutes.

 

CO2 speeds along climate change.  "Glaciers melting in the dead of night".

 

 

 

  

 

[Graham Butcher]

2 hours ago, Rooted said:

&.

 That will still be too much pollution. 

I do wish people would sniff their tail pipes more often.   Actually lay down at the tail of the car and have a rest as the Diesels do a regen when a car is sitting idling fast. 

 

I am not suggesting 'sewage' side.  The dirty way out.    But why are the exhaust systems leaking into the car an issue, and why is it not sensible to run a vaccum cleaner pipe from the exhaust into the cabin of the vehicle?

 

Is that why the modern trend on ICE is not to have the tail pipe protrude from the rear of the vehicle any more, but to have it finishing beneath the boot floor, so the occupants of the newer ICE vehicles breathe in the highly dangerous fumes of their own cars when they are stuck in slow moving traffic?

 

What is the source of the tables and maps you posted please?

 

For instance, the pollution map of Scotland shows that the most polluted road in Glasgow is Hope Street, and yet Hope Street air quality monitoring station is right next to the Glasgow Central railway station. Trains are known to have high pollution levels and drilling down into where the highest readings are across the country, it is no surprise that highest readings are very often right close to railway infrastructure, be they overground or underground.

 

Also is it not true that life expectancy has never since records began, been better than what it is right now. We keep on discovering human remains during excavations for new infrastructure and they get examined by experts to see what we can learn from about life years ago, and it seems that we are now living considerably longer then our ancestors ever did, so even with all these dangerous fumes etc, we are still living far longer, and our ancestors never had all the cars etc that we have, so how can we explain that?  

 

Edited 24 April by Graham Butcher

[skomaz]

2 hours ago, Rooted said:

 

Lots of the high reading streets in Scotland are where bus stations / depots are and bus stop areas and taxi ranks. 

 

 

Indeed - the most polluted areas in Sheffield are the train station and now the area behind the Crucible Theatre now that they've closed it ne way to cars and diverted all the buses down it...

 

As for particulates - EV's tend to generate much more from tyres than a similar ICE vehicle does so it all balances out...

[skomaz]

11 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

 

For instance, the pollution map of Scotland shows that the most polluted road in Glasgow is Hope Street, and yet Hope Street air quality monitoring station is right next to the Glasgow Central railway station. Trains are known to have high pollution levels and drilling down into where the highest readings are across the country, it is no surprise that highest readings are very often right close to railway infrastructure, be they overground or underground.

 

 

It is funny that isn't it and I've seen similar elsewhere - some might suggest that the pollution monitoring stations have been 'strategically placed' to ensure they have high readings that can be blamed on vehicular traffic, as opposed to on the real culprits...

[Winston_Woof]

23 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Trains are known to have high pollution levels and drilling down into where the highest readings are across the country, it is no surprise that highest readings are very often right close to railway infrastructure, be they overground or underground.

 

 

It always amuses me that you can't smoke or vape on a platform next to a diesel train ;o)

[skomaz]

30 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

It always amuses me that you can't smoke or vape on a platform next to a diesel train ;o)

 

Indeed - whenever I've been on a train journey or used the underground I always find I need a shower afterwards to get rid of the muck...   blow your nose after a journey on the underground and you see just how many particulates there are down there!

[J.R.]

On 19/04/2024 at 09:45, Graham Butcher said:

Observe the clear uncongested road, bugger all traffic but look at the air, the pollution is there, highly visible, hiding in plain sight.

 

A misty day?

 

My money is on that the video has been Sepiaised (a word I just made up) I bought a charming sepia photo of my now ex street in the UK taken when it was built in 1958 from the antique shop in the village, turns out I was scammed because my neighbour had a print of the original B&W photo, much sharper definition, clearer but not as nostalgic or saleable, the major difference was the misty skyline, on my photo my house did not have a chimney, on my neighbours unadulterated original photo it did!

 

It still does have the chimney.

 

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Also is it not true that life expectancy has never since records began, been better than what it is right now. it seems that we are now living considerably longer then our ancestors ever did, so even with all these dangerous fumes etc, we are still living far longer,

 

We are not living considerably longer, infant mortality is massively reduced with modern medicine and the welfare state, that is the reason for the numerical rise, it is an average, it could well be that those who do not die as children, the vast majority of us, are actually dying earlier than our ancestors of heart disease, diabetes and cancer.

 

My father and his siblings lived to their late 80's early 90's but they were 5 children who grew to adults out of 10 children born to the mother who died of malnutrition and beating at 34, my father had a twin who died within days, the average lifespan of  the adults in that family would be around 45.

 

Had my parents had 10 children it is likely that we all would have survived, we could all have died in our 50's 30 years younger than our parents and their siblings yet our average lifespan would have been higher than theirs.

Edited 24 April by J.R.

[Ootohere]

Re. Life Expectancy & the long lived and new expected to keep working longer guff.

 

Maybe those born in the 1950,s can remember this thread if they reach 100 years old.

Maybe the youngsters here born around the time of the Millennium might be around to wish them many happy returns.

 

My Mum is 99, my Aunties were long lived and so were a few of my Uncles, but they were from the North East of Scotland and had war time diets but Scottish Wartime in the northeast where there was plenty. My mum moved there from Edinburgh when in her early 20,s.

 

He brothers and uncles, cousins etc dies young, but then they worked in the mines or on the railways. 

My Grandad died on his way home from his last day at work after handing back his lorry.  Dies at Powderhall at the greyhound racing.

 

Issue for those born after the war by a couple of decades has been sugar, and processed food, and there were all the chimneys for factories and much else.

Leaded Petrol and Diesel and what else happened in the UK a world of plenty.

 

Lets those that are alive by 2050 decide if the scientist were correct on the life expectancy.  

 

My Granny & Granddad had 13 children and only 1 died young as 12 year old with a carbuncle then the infection.

Here they are with their children, partners and their children. 1953.

Grandad back Left with glasses. 

Carter /Haulier, Coalman, as my uncles were when young.

My Mum and Dad married at the end of the war.

 

Edited 24 April by Rooted

[@Lee]

On 19/04/2024 at 09:45, Graham Butcher said:

 Observe the clear uncongested road, bugger all traffic but look at the air, the pollution is there, highly visible, hiding in plain sight.

 

It's winter so obviously there's gonna be some mist and also, that's not exactly 4K video is it.

[J.R.]

No No! Its air pollution hiding in plain sight, we would never have known but for Youtube 😄

 

37 minutes ago, Rooted said:

Lets those that are alive by 2050 decide if the scientist were correct on the life expectancy.  

 

I believe the figures 100%, what is incorrect in my view is the use of the term "life expectancy" which convinces the hard of thinking to expect to live to that age (on average) which is completely wrong.

 

Editted, I wont delete the above which is completely wrong and will own my mistake, having survived infancy then we should indeed expect to live to the average life expectancy, what is incorrect is the belief that the figures show that we are living much longer these days than in the past.

Edited 24 April by J.R.