Holding DSG in 'D' or 'S' mode when stationary

[Deepjoy]

Having been refered to a Wikipedia entry from another thread, I read that:

"The 'N' position should be used when the motor vehicle is stationary for a period of time, such as at red traffic lights, or waiting in a queue of stationary traffic. The DSG should not be held in any of the active gear modes ('S' or 'D') while stationary using the footbrake for other than brief periods — due to the clutches being held on the bite point, as this can overheat the clutches and transmission fluid.

What do people think is meant by 'brief' periods? Personally when I stop at red lights, I just hold the car (vRS) by the foot brake.

[Lornak]

If you were in a manual, how long would you hold the clutch on the bite point sitting at traffic lights - or would you knock the gear stick into neutral?

I knock mine into neutral when I'm coming up to a red light when the speed is below 20mph, it changes back in quick enough should I get the light timing wrong anyway.

[jrp]

due to the clutches being held on the bite point

I don't think they are held "at biting point" though are they?

If they were, then there wouldn't be the short delay when taking your foot off the brake before the car decides to move. I thought this delay was caused by the clutch not being at biting point.

Having said that, I took mine out of gear because you could definately feel some drag with it in gear.

Edited 18 July, 2010 by jrp

[Evening Star]

I usually put mine into N within 20 sec of coming to a stand at lights or in a long queue, that way should my foot slip of the brake I don't rear end someone, also I don't blind the person in rear by my brake lights.

[Yetiflute]

I have developed a habit of selecting neutral when coming to a standstill in nearly all circumstances. I feel that this is best for the long term life of the clutch. The delay in selecting D and then off again is minimal and becomes second nature so that it is nearly as quick as leaving it in D prior to taking off again.

[countryboy]

It is always good practice to put a car in neutral when at a standstill, be it manual or automatic, I normally do so within a few seconds of coming to a standstill. By the way ALWAYS select neutral and put the handbrake on, don't rely on putting the car in P to hold the car still. One day if you are unlucky you will have someone nudge you up the backside and not only will you need the cars rear end rebuilt, you will need a new gearbox as the gears inside will be damaged due to being forced around whilst locked.

Ian.

Edited 18 July, 2010 by countryboy

[octavia5]

The DSG clutches are electronically disengaged when you have your foot on the foot-brake - assuming the brake light switch is working so there is no wear in Drive if you have the car held on the foot brake, once you take your foot off the brake the relevant clutch engages as good as instantly but you can sometimes feel a microscopic delay.

If you hold on the handbrake with the DSG in drive you will have the clutch fighting the hand brake hold - not good - so drop it into N

[David P]

From the owners' manual:

"The selector lever position N does not have to be selected when stopping just for a short time, such as at a cross roads. It is absolutely sufficient to hold the stopped vehicle stationary by depressing the foot brake. The engine can, however, be allowed just to idle."

The DSG doesn't hold the clutches at biting point if you have your foot firmly on the brake pedal. You can see how the DSG works in the regard in two ways.

First on a level empty road or car park with the DSG in D simply remove your foot from the brake without then touching the accelerator - there will be a slight delay until the clutches engage and the car will creep forward, the anti-stall will keep the engine at idle and you'll just move forward in 1st gear at idle speed. When you brake the clutches disengage and the engine doesn't stall. In this respect the DSG works very much like e.g. a Citroen DS or similar "automated manual".

Second the way the Hill Hold / Uphill Start Assist works is designed to work with the slight delay in the clutch take-up. From the manual:

"The system assists a start of by holding the brake pressure produced by the brake pedal actuation for approx. 2 seconds after releasing the brake pedal. The driver can therefore move his foot from the brake pedal to the accelerator pedal and start off on the slope, without having to actuate the handbrake. The brake pressure drops gradually the more you operate the accelerator pedal. If the vehicle does not start off within 2 seconds, it starts to roll back."

The DSG is totally different from a traditional torque converter automatic. If you sit with the car in D held on the brakes with a torque converter you will start to heat-up the AT fluid and may cause the fluid to over-heat - though in my opinion you'd have to do it for a pretty long time. With a torque converter there is little problem when waiting in traffic if you ease your foot off the brake to creep forward a few inches and then reaaply it. In a DSG if this is your driving style you will increase the wear on the clutches (as I keep reminding the other half...).

In my opinion (and that of e.g. Honest John or LJK Setright - both experienced auto drivers), in an automatic (of any kind) you are more in control of your car if you are in D and the foot brake is used - better still if you learn to brake with your left foot. Handbrakes exert a relatively much lower breaking force, and a pointless juggling of levers (selector or handbrake) simply takes your hand away from more important controls. It could be argued that at night it is courteous to use N+handbrake when stopped to avoid dazzling the driver behind. However with the high ambient light in towns and on lit roads this is less a problem, and on unlit roads you really want to be seen as being stationary so the brake lights and third light add to your safety; only when someone has come to a stop behind you is N+handbrake worth considering.

Edited 18 July, 2010 by David P

[mannyo]

The DSG clutches are held at biting point on the DSG, you can feel a small jolt (tiny though it is) as you move the selector from N to D as the clutches move to the biting point. I always put mine in N when stopped at red lights, I do it as soon as I stop. Same in slow traffic, if I feel that I am going to be stationary for more than a minute or so, I slip the car into N. If you keep your foot on the brake, it only takes a quick flick to get back to D again anyway. When moving away the clutches move together like driving a manual. I would like to suggest Davids post be "First on a level empty road or car park with the DSG in D simply remove your foot from the brake without then touching the accelerator - there will be a slight delay until the clutch fully engages (only a single clutch is engaged). Holding the car in D on the footbrake will cause uneccesary wear on the clutch for 1st gear, and also unwanted heat build up.

The six speed DSG uses gears 1,3,5 on one clutch and 2,4,6 on the other, as it is in effect 2 manual gearboxes with an electronically controlled shift system.

Also in slow traffic, I use the gearbox in manual mode to avoid unneeded up/down gear changes.

Moving to N on the 7 speed DSG is even more important since the clutches are dry, unlike the 6 speed where they are Wet clutches.

[Paul007]

I've been advised to put it in neutral and hold it with the handbrake. This advice is also issued by the IAM.

[WaveyDaveyGravy]

In my opinion (and that of e.g. Honest John or LJK Setright - both experienced auto drivers), in an automatic (of any kind) you are more in control of your car if you are in D and the foot brake is used - better still if you learn to brake with your left foot. Handbrakes exert a relatively much lower breaking force, and a pointless juggling of levers (selector or handbrake) simply takes your hand away from more important controls. It could be argued that at night it is courteous to use N+handbrake when stopped to avoid dazzling the driver behind. However with the high ambient light in towns and on lit roads this is less a problem, and on unlit roads you really want to be seen as being stationary so the brake lights and third light add to your safety; only when someone has come to a stop behind you is N+handbrake worth considering.

Honest John actually has a real beef about drivers sitting in traffic with their foot on the brake as they can't be bothered to put the car in neutral and LJKS is from a looong time ago. Brake lights are the same power as fog lights, so it is difficult to look at them at any time of day. I totally disagree that at night high ambient light in towns makes it less of a problem - it is more of one, as your eyes are much more susceptible to light. It's such an easy thing to do and I can't believe this isn't default behaviour.

[PhilP1903]

Not sure about this , but doesn't the highway code instruct you to take the car OUT of gear and apply the handbrake when pulling up at any type of junction ?

[m0bov]

RTFM, its fine to leave it in D, that's the reason I got a DSG, on a 1 mile section of my local by pass there are 7 sets of lights and a round about with 4 sets round it and a set on each entraance. About 5 years ago, except for the roundabout, there was just 2!

The DSG has a clutch and the gear is not engaged when at a stop.

[Darkside]

I have not read the manual yet, because i don't own a car with DSG (it's being ordered). But the reason i bought it with DSG is because i do not want to shift anymore. I want a relaxing driving experiance and enoy the automatic gearbox. I don't think i will put it in N. Unless there was an accident and i'd have to wait longer than 10 minutes. But then i would shut down the engine entirely.

http://www.vweosclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2452

says to stay in D.

Edited 19 July, 2010 by Darkside

[martinch]

Honest John actually has a real beef about drivers sitting in traffic with their foot on the brake as they can't be bothered to put the car in neutral and LJKS is from a looong time ago. Brake lights are the same power as fog lights, so it is difficult to look at them at any time of day. I totally disagree that at night high ambient light in towns makes it less of a problem - it is more of one, as your eyes are much more susceptible to light. It's such an easy thing to do and I can't believe this isn't default behaviour.

It was actually a question on my theory test (although it was specifically at night). I do agree that looking at the leading car's brake lights does make my eyes hurt, even in day light.

[ChrisRs]

I always put it in N when stopped ....regardless of the clutch being engaged or not

[simonsheil]

I cant say I have ever tried on a DSG car holding lightly on the brake pedal and seeing of it creeps forward.

Now in my evo (DSG style box by another company) it does and I know for a fact that it merely slips the clutch not disengages them under braking, hence left foot braking can lead to overhating the oil.

Now in the evo D-N is not locked ie just push the lever and the manual encourages this when stopped, however, I am preety sure the DSG I was in at the weekend required button push to move from D-N.

[IndianaBlues]

Now in the evo D-N is not locked ie just push the lever and the manual encourages this when stopped, however, I am preety sure the DSG I was in at the weekend required button push to move from D-N.

Mine (6 speed) doesn't require the button to move from N-D...although I always do it anyway out of habit with my previous auto

Edited 19 July, 2010 by IndianaBlues

[countryboy]

Having just finished driving my 6-speed dsg for the day I can confirm that my car does hold the clutch at the biting point when D or S is engaged as it is possible to allow the car to creep along like a torque convertor automatic, controlling the speed on the footbrake, releasing the footbrake causes the clutch to engage fully and away you go. It is true that you don't need to push the selector lever button to move from N to D, though you do need to press the brake pedal when stationary to disengage the safety interlock, shown by the green symbol in the rev counter going out, you can feel it if you hold the lever at the same time too.

Ian.

[simonsheil]

Right had a play on the way home and I was wrong. In the evo at stationary pressing the brake does completley release the clutches.

However, I would still imagine that this is operating a release mechanisim which may increase wear, however, an unlikely source of failure I would imagine. Also to consider of course is if the brakes are warm you may risk warping discs holding it on the brakes.

[peterg1955]

I love the contrariness of internet forums where people quote 'facts' like the clutches being at the biting point even after someone has posted what the manufacturers manual says ie that they aren't ...

Anyway, we have two DSG equipped cars, one has now done 90k and the other 65k, neither of us ever put the car into neutral at lights or roundabouts or anywhere else unless we're stuck in statinary traffic for more than a few minutes so both these cars have sat on the footbrake in 'D' for lots of time (we live in the south east so plenty of traffic queues) and we haven't had any problems at all

[Lornak]

I think the case with me is that I don't want to have the inconvenience of waiting for the fluid to cool down 'cos I left it in D too long standing still.

[m0bov]

I think the case with me is that I don't want to have the inconvenience of waiting for the fluid to cool down 'cos I left it in D too long standing still.

What fluid???!!

[Darkside]

I love the contrariness of internet forums where people quote 'facts' like the clutches being at the biting point even after someone has posted what the manufacturers manual says ie that they aren't ...

Anyway, we have two DSG equipped cars, one has now done 90k and the other 65k, neither of us ever put the car into neutral at lights or roundabouts or anywhere else unless we're stuck in statinary traffic for more than a few minutes so both these cars have sat on the footbrake in 'D' for lots of time (we live in the south east so plenty of traffic queues) and we haven't had any problems at all

Whatever it does. it's post like this i prefer. real user experiance.

Offcourse it is no guarantee that mine will last as long if i press de brakes and keep it in D.

But it is a change i am willing to take.

[David P]

I would like to suggest Davids post be "First on a level empty road or car park with the DSG in D simply remove your foot from the brake without then touching the accelerator - there will be a slight delay until the clutch fully engages (only a single clutch is engaged). Holding the car in D on the footbrake will cause uneccesary wear on the clutch for 1st gear, and also unwanted heat build up.

The six speed DSG uses gears 1,3,5 on one clutch and 2,4,6 on the other, as it is in effect 2 manual gearboxes with an electronically controlled shift system.

Mannyo is right and I'm wrong. I've devised a simple test which seems to prove that the clutch is slightly engaged even when the footbrake is firmly pressed. Here's the test: place your LEFT foot very firmly on the footbrake; select N; barely blip the throttle with your right foot; the engine will rev freely. Repeat with selector in D. The engine will rev more sluggishly - suggesting drag from the slightly engaged clutch.

However I'm sticking with my driving style as the manual says it's OK and I bought the car as an automatic. If it wears it wears and I'll learn to treat it as a consumable part just as I have learnt to accept that brake discs are consumables (at a rate of 1 disc for every other pad change if my Mercs are anything to go by - but that's another post).

I am deeply impressed by the quality of the DSG gearbox and the depth of thought that has gone into the shift programme. On the very rare occasions I move the lever out of D, the S setting extracts more performance from the 1.4TSI than I'd ever manage myself from a manual box.