Wow - used my Winter tires in anger today

[mr rooney]

Nice one! Just shows that investing some money in winters can save you money and a lot of hassle if things goes wrong.

[mat-vrs]

Finally got some winter tyres (Vred Snowtrac 3) and the snow is melting...

Ah well, next time it snows we will be sorted.

Although I'm glad to get them on regardless of snow. The Goodyears that were on were utterly crap.

Edited 21 January, 2013 by mat-vrs

[bobby_vimto]

OK, snow tyres are great - how about a campaign to make them practical & affordable? The assumption seems to be that everyone can nip out to a friendly local tyre fitter, has £600 to spend on new wheels and tyres, and has a whacking great garage or spare room to store the regular 'summer' tyres and then in a few months, that same friendly tyre fitter will happily refit the 'summers' for a couple of quid on the side. Utter cobblers! It's a great expense that a lot of drivers cannot afford and don't have the means to store large items such as a full set of summer tyres. And why do I need to downgrade to smaller profile steel wheels - if winter tyres are so great, why can't I get a set to fit my existing alloys at the correct speed rating so that my insurance company doesn't have an absolute fit and conclude that this is a max power modification and therefore an extra £200 onto my premium (even though it would technically make the car safer in poor driving conditions). All in all, the UK isn't set up to make this an easy choice therefore most drivers will continue to use the one set all year round.

[andyoctavia]

For the people that believe that they are too good of a driver to benefit from winter tyres:

"Morning all. Winter has arrived!!! 0.0 degrees on the display in my car at 7:30. Definately getting the winter tyres fitted this week."

- Tweet by Gary Paffett, DTM driver and McLaren Formula 1 test/reserve driver.

Nice one!

I daresay that someone will come on and say that they are a better, more qualified driver than a DTM pilot

I was going to swap over to Winter tyres, but decided to stick with the Barum Bravuris 2 for now (with a couple of PSI taken out). This morning I was greeted with an icy road, but there was no squirming or slipping. When I arrived at my OH's work, I was greeted with a nice large visitor's car park, covered with a mixture of snow, slush and compacted icy snow. I had a little play and was quite impressed. From about 10 - 15MPH I could jam the brakes on hard, and the car was biting well, holding a line.

I think that these tyres are superb, but they are fairly new (8000 miles) and have a lot of tread on them.

[Huskoda]

OK, snow tyres are great - how about a campaign to make them practical & affordable? The assumption seems to be that everyone can nip out to a friendly local tyre fitter, has £600 to spend on new wheels and tyres, and has a whacking great garage or spare room to store the regular 'summer' tyres and then in a few months, that same friendly tyre fitter will happily refit the 'summers' for a couple of quid on the side. Utter cobblers! It's a great expense that a lot of drivers cannot afford and don't have the means to store large items such as a full set of summer tyres. And why do I need to downgrade to smaller profile steel wheels - if winter tyres are so great, why can't I get a set to fit my existing alloys at the correct speed rating so that my insurance company doesn't have an absolute fit and conclude that this is a max power modification and therefore an extra £200 onto my premium (even though it would technically make the car safer in poor driving conditions). All in all, the UK isn't set up to make this an easy choice therefore most drivers will continue to use the one set all year round.

I will agree that certain people will have logistical problems with storing tyres. There isn't the infrastructure here like in other countries for storing them, unless you have a shed/garage/loft.

The other points I do not entirely agree with.

The cost. My winter tyres are cheaper per tyre than the summers. Therefore it is cheaper/no more expensive for me to wear out 1 set of each than 2 sets of summers over the same time period as in my experience the winters are not wearing faster than the summers. The steels cost, yes, but its a one time cost over the life of the car and they will have resale value.

The advantages of changing to narrower steels is they grip better in the snow/ice than wide summer tyres. Plus you wont damage your alloys if you slide into a kerb hidden under snow.

As for insurance, both mine and SWMBO's insurers were happy that I was using winters and one commented that it was good I was improving the safety of my car. I do not believe any insurer would raise your premium by £200. This is a case of insurers getting their heads out of their asses and its something I check with them when I get quotes. If an insurer seems hostile about them, then I move on.

The UK isn't where it needs to be on this yet and is not helped by the media telling people they need 4x4s and not mentioning winter tyres. This can change and you can help it. Spread the word. I had to help push someone up a hill and told him I got up it with no problems on winters and he should give them a go and he said he'd heard about them but didn't know if they were any good.

If more people know about them, more will use them, insurers will stop being problematic, the infrastructure to support them will grow and we should hopefully all have a more pleasant driving experience in winter.

[bobby_vimto]

Some v.good points Huskoda but winter tyres cheaper than summer? Recent internet search. Winter Goodyear Ultragrip £160 each - summer Falken / Toyo £85, Goodyear £100. And storage? Not even an option for me, lucky to find space for a sofa, sadly my circumstances don't extend to spare room or garage options!

Perhaps if the insurance industry made an attempt to drag themselves into the 21st century, innovate instead of being motivated by £££ greed then we'd all get along better. Winter tyres are viewed as a modification (as I can't get winter tyres speed rated WYZ) therefore the premium is raised. Quotes from other winter tyre friendly companies meant the standard premium went up to 'compensate' just as much, so not really any better - it's similar to the insurance view on remapping, not done to necessarily go racing but the industry mostly take the view it's the same as strapping machine guns to the bonnet as you must be a lunatic for wanting to improve how the car drives.

Not sure I agree why there would be a significant amount of extra grip obtained with skinny tyres over using winter tyres suitable for the standard size alloys. If conditions are so poor that you need to consider swapping to skinny wheels over standard then should you be out in the first place? Why should winter tyres on a 225 45 17 not work just as well as others - isn't that the point on these pages is how good winter rubber is but now we're having to swap tyres, store wheels, perils of informing unhelpful insurers etc. Is this snow-a-geddon in the UK for a couple of weeks?!

If the tyre & insurance industry simply got their act together, tried to provide a no fuss insurance service (ie. policies allowing for winter tyre changes as standard), franchised garages offered a storage service (for a minor fee to cover costs) then it would probably engage most of the general public to seriously fitting winter tyres perhaps generate some goodwill along the way.

[Glass Back]

My point is that the correct training gives you the skill to control any car safely, irrespective of what tyres are fitted. Spend your cash on yourself rather than your car!

Really? How many police cars are crashed everyday? By drivers who have had the extra training and also skid training.

[Huskoda]

They're partly cheaper because the size is different. 225/45/17 will be expensive. 205/55R16 have an almost identical rolling circumference and are a lot cheaper. But if you have nowhere to store them, then yeah, it doesn't really matter.

I've found my cheapest insurers also happened to be winter friendly, I haven't actually had to say 'sorry, your quote is great, but as you don't like winter tyres I'm going with someone else' yet, but I would if I had to. Chances are they will be a pain about anything else too. Good customer service needs to be rewarded with business

I'm only really going on hearsay with the narrower tyres, I've never compared them myself, but the logic seems plausible. Narrower = smaller contact area, so more ground pressure so better grip. But look at Landrover Defenders. They have skinny tyres and do well on mud/snow.

[Fatbloke]

Not sure I agree why there would be a significant amount of extra grip obtained with skinny tyres over using winter tyres suitable for the standard size alloys. If conditions are so poor that you need to consider swapping to skinny wheels over standard then should you be out in the first place? Why should winter tyres on a 225 45 17 not work just as well as others - isn't that the point on these

Having a think about this and it's quite a complex issue. Given the same car weight and tyre pressure, similar (i.e not massively different eg. 225 and 205) widths of tyre will have the roughly the same size contact patch but there will be less longtitudinal (and sidewall) deformation on the wider tyre. The wider tyre will obviously have a wider contact patch which will give greater lateral grip. The more deformed narrower tyre will have a longer contact patch so better longtitudinal grip, arguably better for straightline traction and braking. On snow, it won't make much difference unless you go to significantly skinnier tyres where the effect of the actual contact patch becoming much smaller will increase the unit force on the ground and 'cut' through the snow rather than skimming along the top

[bobby_vimto]

Having a think about this and it's quite a complex issue. Given the same car weight and tyre pressure, similar (i.e not massively different eg. 225 and 205) widths of tyre will have the roughly the same size contact patch but there will be less longtitudinal (and sidewall) deformation on the wider tyre. The wider tyre will obviously have a wider contact patch which will give greater lateral grip. The more deformed narrower tyre will have a longer contact patch so better longtitudinal grip, arguably better for straightline traction and braking. On snow, it won't make much difference unless you go to significantly skinnier tyres where the effect of the actual contact patch becoming much smaller will increase the unit force on the ground and 'cut' through the snow rather than skimming along the top

I like the science bit! But it's exactly the point I was getting at really - 5 pages of the debate on the merits of winter tyres versus superior 'he-man skills' on summers but ultimately winter tyres are a bit expense that a lot of people can ill afford, can't source locally, with a non-existent infrastructure in the country to even support it - in fact it turns out we're often financially penalised for attempting to be safer!

Anyway on a lighter note, it was amusing this morning to watch a little Ford Ka with skinny tyres bomb past the rapidly spinning and going nowhere Evoque with its 20inch slicks (and the bemused driver wondering why £40k of electronics wasn't helping one little bit).

[cheezemonkhai]

OK, snow tyres are great - how about a campaign to make them practical & affordable? The assumption seems to be that everyone can nip out to a friendly local tyre fitter, has £600 to spend on new wheels and tyres, and has a whacking great garage or spare room to store the regular 'summer' tyres and then in a few months, that same friendly tyre fitter will happily refit the 'summers' for a couple of quid on the side. Utter cobblers! It's a great expense that a lot of drivers cannot afford and don't have the means to store large items such as a full set of summer tyres. And why do I need to downgrade to smaller profile steel wheels - if winter tyres are so great, why can't I get a set to fit my existing alloys at the correct speed rating so that my insurance company doesn't have an absolute fit and conclude that this is a max power modification and therefore an extra £200 onto my premium (even though it would technically make the car safer in poor driving conditions). All in all, the UK isn't set up to make this an easy choice therefore most drivers will continue to use the one set all year round.

BMW mini, £400 including steel wheels, Conti tyres and wheel trims. They will look after them and swap them over.

Bearing in mind that means you'll pretty much get a full four years out of both sets of tyres, it's hardly a big issue.

I do agree though, that a company could make a killing by having a secure tyre storage facility for 4/5 tyres that is small surcharge on the price when you buy the tyres/wheels from them.

As for the big I've got 4x4 ho and the look at me types, body shops, garages and clutch manufacturers all over must love these people. I wonder if that can't bring us out of recession hehe.

Edited 22 January, 2013 by cheezemonkhai

[stever750]

I like the science bit! But it's exactly the point I was getting at really - 5 pages of the debate on the merits of winter tyres versus superior 'he-man skills' on summers but ultimately winter tyres are a bit expense that a lot of people can ill afford, can't source locally, with a non-existent infrastructure in the country to even support it - in fact it turns out we're often financially penalised for attempting to be safer!

Anyway on a lighter note, it was amusing this morning to watch a little Ford Ka with skinny tyres bomb past the rapidly spinning and going nowhere Evoque with its 20inch slicks (and the bemused driver wondering why £40k of electronics wasn't helping one little bit).

Well, it is a free market after all, and the problem is it appears even our police forces unofficially think they are a waste of time, so readers of the Daily Mash are going to think they're a waste of money too.

I'm sure if it were legal requirement to use winter tyres, then availability and prices would come down simply because of market forces. Europeans manage to store wheels and tyres, so no real reason why we can't do the same if we have to. It is inconvenient, but then so are huge delays when we get a slight sprinkle of snow, let alone accidents and the cost to human lives. I know £600 is lot of cash for anybody but a few, but perhaps we should factor that in when making a new car purchase, like we do insurance.

[Chappers.]

I've kept quiet on this thread but I've been reading it regularly. Winter tyres are not a magic solution to bad weather conditions - driving to the conditions is. I get extremely worried by people that post that now they have winter tyres fitted they can continue to drive in the same style & speeds as they would in the middle of summer - it does not matter what tyres you have fitted to your vehicle - it will not grip on slick ice (studded tyres are illegal in the UK before anyone tries that argument). Winter tyres may well grip better in some winter conditions than summers - but - it is not a substitute for correct driving skills or ability.

I think that Metblackrat is getting some unfair stick as well, he has simply tried to make the case that most of the emergency services do not fit winter tyres to their vehicles and that driving to the conditions is usually the key to safe progress - hence the remark of still being able to drive on an emergency response, in a powerful rear wheel drive car, while the temp is under 4c and not spin off the road and crash horrifically!

Glass Back - police cars do crash, as do Ambulances & Fire service vehicles. They are also driven at greater speeds, distances and conditions than the majority of private vehicles. I am sure that there would be figures available somewhere to state exactly how many, but to counter your argument, just how many private vehicles are crashed daily, whether on winters/summers at speed or slowly, in good or bad weather?

For that majority of people, they will have to put up with one set of tyres for the whole year - cost/space etc are all considerations. In fact, for normal winter conditions, summer tyres are still quite ample - it is generally in snow/slush that they really struggle and that is because of the design of the tread pattern. The All Terrain tyres fitted to my Land Rover have the grooves across the tyre, most car tyres run all the way around.

bobby_vimto - your remark about the "driver" in the £40k Evoque is another case of poor or non existant driver skills. There will be settings etc for snow/slush in that vehicle, and yet the driver expects to be able to drive as normal and then wonders why their vehicle is going no where. The best vehicle with the best tyres & driver aides in the world will still get stuck if driven with no skill or consideration for whatever adverse conditions it is in.

I am not saying that winter tyres are no good, but very much like the petrol/diesel argument, it is personal choice. For some it is worth it, for others it is an expense that is not.

[Gti Jazz Blue]

This has got to be the longest running thread I've ever started

[bobby_vimto]

This has got to be the longest running thread I've ever started

Can't wait to find out what you're going to come up with for an encore!

[andyvee]

Sorry Chappers, I disagree on some points.

Where I live there are some very steep hills that do not get gritted or cleared. On the day I first fitted winters to the Octy one of these was impassable on summer tyres. Put the winters on and could drive quite comfortably up it, passing a stranded range rover on AT's who was struggling for grip.

It isn't about being able to drive faster or less sympathetically, in some cases it is about being able to drive at all.

[domhnall]

lots of good points on here. Re the emergency services, I read a couple of years back that the emergency services had used them previously but they stopped due to spending cut backs by the Scottish government (obv different in England). Re storage my Skoda dealer offers to store your wheels if you buy the winter tyres from them., No reason others couldn't do the same for those who don't have storage spaqce of their own, this is what happens in other countries after all.

[GrantS508]

I am only on my second season using winter tyres, and having used them on proper snow this last few days, yes, I am sold. I do believe that there is a marked benefit over not having them, and it has to be said as well that the car feels safer,probably because of two major factors: - 1. It has been proved that winter tyres do perform better in the cold and snow, and 2. because psychologically as well as the documented and proven benefits, I FEEL safer and more confident/happier in the car's ability to do what I ask it to.

Even SWMBO, who does not do a great mileage or drive aggressively, has noticed a huge difference in driving my Octavia (with winters) over her Octavia (without), and has asked me to source another set of winters for her -- again because she FEELS safer in the car with the winters on.

Very interesting to see BBC news tonight about the blizzards in Scotland -- QUOTE Several serious accidents on the A9 UNQUOTE........... Enough said

Mike

After driving home and back on Friday and Sunday respectively on summers, I didn't crash slide or spin, and before you get excitable about what you read in the news, tell me for sure that none of them vehicles that crashed had winters on. Which is after all the topic here.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

[cheezemonkhai]

Long and short is that winters will greatly help you when you are driving to the conditions. Particularly on hills etc.

If you have the best winters and drive like a plank, then you're still going to come unstuck and look like a complete plank if not worse.

They make it easier to not get caught out by s slippery hill.

As pointed out above though. Winters on polished Ice are not going to be much better than summers. They could have 100 times the grip, but it's still so close to zero, that it's not going to do much.

Spiked tyres are the answer but they're not permitted.

In some ways, I do wonder if they should just let people fit studded tyres, sod gritting and then spend the money they would have spent on gritting resurfacing roads properly every few years.

[Chappers.]

Sorry Chappers, I disagree on some points.

Where I live there are some very steep hills that do not get gritted or cleared. On the day I first fitted winters to the Octy one of these was impassable on summer tyres. Put the winters on and could drive quite comfortably up it, passing a stranded range rover on AT's who was struggling for grip.

It isn't about being able to drive faster or less sympathetically, in some cases it is about being able to drive at all.

I didn't say that summer tyres would be as good as winter tyres in more severe conditions, and actually stated that in snow and/or slush winters will outperform any summer tyre. The reference to the AT tyres was more regarding their tread pattern. There are many different styles of AT tyres out there and not all are equal.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD

[furn]

ive got 4 points on my briskoda account from the last time i got into a debate over winter tyres so im not going to start any more arguments im just stating my point of view and what i do, i run winters on the front in the normal size 225 40 18 and have done for the last 3 years the difference in traction is unbelievable.(please dont go into why i should or shouldnt fit 4, when its a legal req too i will!

the argument for skinny tyres doesnt cut any mustard for me 225 or 205 there isnt that much difference anyway, only thing is if you do lose it you wont wreck your wheels.

heres a video i found the other day showing the merits of winter tyres, on a very powerful and very wide rear wheel drive car.

the other cars have summer tyres fitted.

Edited 22 January, 2013 by furn

[Jeeves]

If space for storage is an issue why not fit an all-season tyre known to be good in winter conditions e.g. Hankook Optimo 4S assuming its available in your size.

Yes - it is a compromise but then so is our choice of car. Otherwise we'd have several, one for each type of journey/condition/load/economy/intended speed etc.

Kwik Fit offer(ed) a Tyre hotel solution, but store the tyres/wheels in a warehouse and therefore requires some degree of planning before changeover.

No one can deny the advantages that winter/CWT tyres offer in the conditions they're designed for. Personally I'm happy to accept the "overhead" that goes with that, although I accept there are valid reasons why some can't commit.

[andyvee]

I didn't say that summer tyres would be as good as winter tyres in more severe conditions, and actually stated that in snow and/or slush winters will outperform any summer tyre. The reference to the AT tyres was more regarding their tread pattern. There are many different styles of AT tyres out there and not all are equal.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD

I have driven the same hill many many times in a SWB 4WD shod with both Yokohama and BFG ATs, and in similar conditions it was still a struggle to keep moving in a straight line.

With proper winters on even a 2wd Octy is reasonably comfortable.

I too was sceptical before I took the plunge, but 2 winters ago when it was -15 every night for almost 2 weeks the road outside my house was sheet ice. On summers the car was sliding off down the slope backing off my drive, with the winters on it stayed straight. There must have been just enough traction.

Admittedly, if you touched the brakes whilst on the ice it lost traction, but if driven very carefully the car could be kept under control.

If you hit ice at any kind of speed above a crawl you would still end up in the ditch though, regardless of tyres.

[Glass Back]

I've kept quiet on this thread but I've been reading it regularly. Winter tyres are not a magic solution to bad weather conditions - driving to the conditions is. I get extremely worried by people that post that now they have winter tyres fitted they can continue to drive in the same style & speeds as they would in the middle of summer - it does not matter what tyres you have fitted to your vehicle - it will not grip on slick ice (studded tyres are illegal in the UK before anyone tries that argument). Winter tyres may well grip better in some winter conditions than summers - but - it is not a substitute for correct driving skills or ability.

I think that Metblackrat is getting some unfair stick as well, he has simply tried to make the case that most of the emergency services do not fit winter tyres to their vehicles and that driving to the conditions is usually the key to safe progress - hence the remark of still being able to drive on an emergency response, in a powerful rear wheel drive car, while the temp is under 4c and not spin off the road and crash horrifically!

Glass Back - police cars do crash, as do Ambulances & Fire service vehicles. They are also driven at greater speeds, distances and conditions than the majority of private vehicles. I am sure that there would be figures available somewhere to state exactly how many, but to counter your argument, just how many private vehicles are crashed daily, whether on winters/summers at speed or slowly, in good or bad weather?

For that majority of people, they will have to put up with one set of tyres for the whole year - cost/space etc are all considerations. In fact, for normal winter conditions, summer tyres are still quite ample - it is generally in snow/slush that they really struggle and that is because of the design of the tread pattern. The All Terrain tyres fitted to my Land Rover have the grooves across the tyre, most car tyres run all the way around.

bobby_vimto - your remark about the "driver" in the £40k Evoque is another case of poor or non existant driver skills. There will be settings etc for snow/slush in that vehicle, and yet the driver expects to be able to drive as normal and then wonders why their vehicle is going no where. The best vehicle with the best tyres & driver aides in the world will still get stuck if driven with no skill or consideration for whatever adverse conditions it is in.

I am not saying that winter tyres are no good, but very much like the petrol/diesel argument, it is personal choice. For some it is worth it, for others it is an expense that is not.

May I kindly suggest that you re read my post. Metblackrat stated that emergency services don't use winter tyres which isn't quite true as several police and fire services in my area do. What he also said was that it was down to poor driver training that people crash so spend your money on yourself not your Vehicle. Yes the public have more crashes. There are an awful lot more public/private Vehicles on the road. To counter your point. Police crashes do not happen due to conditions and distances covered. They happen due to driver error. My point to metblackrat was that his argument of simply better driver training is somewhat contradicted when police officers (who have received the same training as he) have crashes everyday. Yes there driven at greater speeds but still should be driven within the drivers limits as well as the vehicles. Winter tyres assist in the latter and as has been quite rightly pointed out by yourself they should still be used with thought and should not be used as summer tyres in the dry are. In poor weather conditions as we've had this week can it really be justified driving around the m25 in excess of 100mph during the day. I am sure some will argue yes and others no. What would everyone be saying had he crashed due to these conditions and killed someone. Especially if it was released to the media he was travelling over 100mph. He would be guilty before any investigation had even begun and following investigation I dare say he would be without a job but getting 3 meals a day thanks to HMP for a few years. Surely it's better to arrive a few moments later than not at all no matter what the incident.

[dunc69]

May I kindly suggest that you re read my post. Metblackrat stated that emergency services don't use winter tyres which isn't quite true as several police and fire services in my area do. What he also said was that it was down to poor driver training that people crash so spend your money on yourself not your Vehicle. Yes the public have more crashes. There are an awful lot more public/private Vehicles on the road. To counter your point. Police crashes do not happen due to conditions and distances covered. They happen due to driver error. My point to metblackrat was that his argument of simply better driver training is somewhat contradicted when police officers (who have received the same training as he) have crashes everyday. Yes there driven at greater speeds but still should be driven within the drivers limits as well as the vehicles. Winter tyres assist in the latter and as has been quite rightly pointed out by yourself they should still be used with thought and should not be used as summer tyres in the dry are. In poor weather conditions as we've had this week can it really be justified driving around the m25 in excess of 100mph during the day. I am sure some will argue yes and others no. What would everyone be saying had he crashed due to these conditions and killed someone. Especially if it was released to the media he was travelling over 100mph. He would be guilty before any investigation had even begun and following investigation I dare say he would be without a job but getting 3 meals a day thanks to HMP for a few years. Surely it's better to arrive a few moments later than not at all no matter what the incident.

Agreed. I believe the phrase the cops use is "Arrive Alive". i.e. you're no use to the person who called 999 if you don't even make it to the scene (because you've wiped out on the way because you we're driving too fast!).