1.2TSI cam chain problem

[DensYeti]

On 12/06/2017 at 15:11, David1980 said:

The case is awaiting an adjudicator from the Motoring Ombudsman, they are currently hugely backdated but believe mine will be looked at during the week, someone there took a brief look at my case and said that as it's out of warranty I would be relying on the sales of goods act, and I would have to proof it to be a manufacturer fault.

Was hoping they'd be the voice of reason, if anyone has any further info I could use come the Adjudicators call, it would be greatly appreciated 

 

Hi David

It has already been proved that the original cam chain design was too week and hence the stretching.  That is why VW designed a new stronger chain together with the 2 new sprockets to take the new larger chain and tensioner in late 2011.  VW and Skoda etc are well aware of this fault.  It was also documented in a german magazine.  Sorry I don't have time to point you to the mag, but it is on this forum or the Yeti owners club forum where this subject has been going on for a long time.  Also highlighted by "Honest John" correspondent of one of the big newspapers.

I still think it is such a pity that there are 2 forums/clubs for the same car.....so much duplication of effort.

 

My 2010 1.2 Yeti engine was replaced entirely free of charge when the chain fault wrecked the engine at 40,000 miles in early 2016...... as the second owner I was well out of warranty but using the TPI as evidence and having a full Skoda service record "persuaded" them it was a design fault and unfit for purpose.

Print out the relevant TPI as evidence. It is on one of these forums (it was a trade service advice about the problem sent to all VW/Skoda main dealers/approved service agents).

Good luck.

[DensYeti]

TPI?2026513-5 - Engine rattling noises from engine compartment when starting engine (ENG).pdf

 

Read back to beginning of this subject to get full sad story.  The new design chain and sprockets will fit the pre 2011\2012 engine.  Beware a second design fault chain could have been fitted in the early days before the design fault was full understood or if the fitting garage cut corner by fitting  bad chain held in stock.

Edited 17 June, 2017 by DensYeti

[jacekpk]

Hi All!

 

I have Skoda Fabia which was produced 02.2011 (engine 1.2 TSI CBZA). First time I heard rattle noises (about 3 seconds, during start of engine) from the timing chain when the car had mileage 18k km. Later - the noises was happen from time to time but rarely. After driving mileage 85k km rattle was happen more often.

 

I was made precisious researching on this topic on many forums and in Skoda's TPI documents. Skoda made two repair kit for their cars:

• 03F198229A (includes chain 03F109158K) for cars < 11.2011
• 03F198158B (includes chain 03F109158G) for cars > 11.2011

However, I saw such topics on the russian automotive forums that shows it repair kit "B" is also possible to mount in cars which were produced before November 2011. It was very interesting, especially if I saw posts describes that repair kit with "A" doesn't resolve problem with rattling noises.

 

After I logged to the paid Skoda's website for repairers (ERWIN) and putting VIN number of my car I found quite new TPI document no 2037419/11 from 2016.03.30. It describes for examples how to check chain elongation and how to follows if results of the checking shows that timing chain must be replaced. In this document is also written that my engine should be repaired with using repair kit 03F198158B.

 

However, I sent a few mails to authorized Services of Skoda in Poland with question about repair method (which repair kit they plan to used in my car and how much it will be cost). Exactly I wanted find out that they are using recommended repair kit for my engine.

 

I got different responses from them. Unfortunately the most of Services wrote me that right repair kit for my car is 03F198229A with the timing chain "K". It's sad but probably they never heard about document TPI 2037419/11. Happily I'm found in Warsaw one authorized Skoda Service which was familiar about the TPI and they offered me repair my car with using kit 03F198158B.

 

Repair of my Fabia took place in March 2017 when the car had 90k km mileage. Additionally I asked them about changing chain for oil pump. If in engines with timing belt in case of his replacement usually was recommend also replacing water pump, I thought that in CBZA engine good idea could be replace both chains driven from crankshaft. I just wanted that all parts which are cooperating with timing chain and his sprockets was changing, especially that chain of oil pump hasn't any tensioner and probably was also longer and it could be a source of rattle noises.

 

The authorized Skoda Service realized the repair. They replaced my factory timing chain on repair kit 03F198158B and they also mounted new drive of oil pump (chain + sprocket) according for my request. Now I have 98k km and from the replacing date I don't hear any noises. Engine works great.

 

Below I show how looks my factory timing chain and his parts after 90k km. There wasn't tragedy, but I think it was good time to replacing both chains and guide rails, tensioner, sprockets.

 

Camshaft sprocket and elongation of timing chain:

 

Oil pump sprocket and chain elongation:

 

Crankshaft sprocket and timing chain:

 

Crankshaft sprocket damages:

 

Both chains:

 

Regards!

 

Edited 25 June, 2017 by jacekpk

[Rustica]

On 6/25/2017 at 22:38, jacekpk said:

Hi All!

 

I have Skoda Fabia which was produced 02.2011 (engine 1.2 TSI CBZA). First time I heard rattle noises (about 3 seconds, during start of engine) from the timing chain when the car had mileage 18k km. Later - the noises was happen from time to time but rarely. After driving mileage 85k km rattle was happen more often.

 

I was made precisious researching on this topic on many forums and in Skoda's TPI documents. Skoda made two repair kit for their cars:

• 03F198229A (includes chain 03F109158K) for cars < 11.2011
• 03F198158B (includes chain 03F109158G) for cars > 11.2011

However, I saw such topics on the russian automotive forums that shows it repair kit "B" is also possible to mount in cars which were produced before November 2011. It was very interesting, especially if I saw posts describes that repair kit with "A" doesn't resolve problem with rattling noises.

 

After I logged to the paid Skoda's website for repairers (ERWIN) and putting VIN number of my car I found quite new TPI document no 2037419/11 from 2016.03.30. It describes for examples how to check chain elongation and how to follows if results of the checking shows that timing chain must be replaced. In this document is also written that my engine should be repaired with using repair kit 03F198158B.

 

However, I sent a few mails to authorized Services of Skoda in Poland with question about repair method (which repair kit they plan to used in my car and how much it will be cost). Exactly I wanted find out that they are using recommended repair kit for my engine.

 

I got different responses from them. Unfortunately the most of Services wrote me that right repair kit for my car is 03F198229A with the timing chain "K". It's sad but probably they never heard about document TPI 2037419/11. Happily I'm found in Warsaw one authorized Skoda Service which was familiar about the TPI and they offered me repair my car with using kit 03F198158B.

 

Repair of my Fabia took place in March 2017 when the car had 90k km mileage. Additionally I asked them about changing chain for oil pump. If in engines with timing belt in case of his replacement usually was recommend also replacing water pump, I thought that in CBZA engine good idea could be replace both chains driven from crankshaft. I just wanted that all parts which are cooperating with timing chain and his sprockets was changing, especially that chain of oil pump hasn't any tensioner and probably was also longer and it could be a source of rattle noises.

 

The authorized Skoda Service realized the repair. They replaced my factory timing chain on repair kit 03F198158B and they also mounted new drive of oil pump (chain + sprocket) according for my request. Now I have 98k km and from the replacing date I don't hear any noises. Engine works great.

 

Below I show how looks my factory timing chain and his parts after 90k km. There wasn't tragedy, but I think it was good time to replacing both chains and guide rails, tensioner, sprockets.

 

Camshaft sprocket and elongation of timing chain:

 

Oil pump sprocket and chain elongation:

 

Crankshaft sprocket and timing chain:

 

Crankshaft sprocket damages:

 

Both chains:

 

Regards!

 

 Hi @jacekpk please could you give me the part number for the oil pump chain?I am fitting the 03F198158B kit.Thanks and regards

Edited 2 August, 2017 by Rustica

[David1980]

Bit of an update, 

My complaint went to the motoring ombudsman, they have taken about 5 weeks to return a decision in favour of the manufacturer/dealer but managed to maintain the goodwill gesture.

I have now requested an independent report on the car which will be supplied as part of an appeal, after which it will probably be small claims court.

many thanks for all your help! 

[GladysFriday]

When I started having 1.2 tsi timing chain issues, some of the threads on this site were very useful but I couldn't find anything very up to date - ie in 2017  (although this thread seems pretty up to date!) - so here's an update based on my experience this last month or so.

 

On first noticing that my wife's 2010 Yeti 1.2 with 48k miles on the clock was sounding like a diesel on start, I suspected the timing chain. It was very erratic and stayed erratic but when it happened it was very noisy for about 5-10s and then settled down.

 

The first time I took it to my Skoda Dealer, they "investigated" and just topped up the oil - which of course did nothing. At the next service about a a month ago I insisted they kept it for a couple of days during which they witnessed the rattle themselves and agreed it was a timing chain issue. They quoted £675 for the repair.

 

I had quite a battle with the service manager to admit that this was a well-known issue and that Skoda should contribute to the cost of the repair. He was actually quite negative stating that I had no chance of getting anything out of Skoda with a 7 year old car. Even with the evidence of the TPI, he wasn't having any of it.

 

I then rang Skoda customer services and raised a complaint. I have to say that they were excellent. They liaised with the dealer to check the diagnosis and they rang every few days to update me with a progress report. All I had to do was supply them with a copy of the service history. That was my trump card I think - a full Skoda dealer service history.

 

Behind the scenes I suspect that Skoda talked to the dealer and explained the procedure as, the next time I went into them, they had prepared a goodwill claim and claimed a Skoda contribution towards the cost - which Skoda accepted. It was a very different attitude from the service manager this time.

 

Skoda paid 100% for the parts and 60% for the labour. My 40% contribution came to £178 which I think is a good deal. I asked to see the parts list and it included the chain, tensioner, guides and sprockets.

 

So the procedure seems to be that the dealer should diagnose the problem, raise either a warranty or a good will claim with Skoda who will then consider the merits of the case. Getting the dealer to raise the claim seems to be the hardest part - perseverance is required.

 

I know that some will say that Skoda should cover the whole of the cost and I have sympathy with that view but I think I got a good result given the age of the car.

 

I hope this post may help others trying to deal with a timing chain issue. I'll add it to the few threads I discovered in my research.

[xman]

Good result, but reflects pretty much the appalling attitude of dealers. I too had a 3 year plus battle before I eventually got mine changed at approx £300. The downside was they immediately topped up the bill with an Mot fail of a ”noisy" £250 wheel bearing - that wasnt faulty but they went ahead and did it to make some more money.

 

To rub more salt in the wound they didnt refit/seal the sump properly so it leaked oil all over a new block paved drive. Their fix took two days when they just stuffed some sealer in I think, cos they didnt change the oil or filter, it still leaks but only a little now and I'm too stressed to consider even talking to the dealer, their arrogance is intimidating.

 

What with the 4 sets of steering arms that have been fitted in 2 years and having to get Skoda UK involved directly, In short the Skoda dealer experience has been very stressful. Used to be a Skoda fan (since 2004), but have seen enough dodgy dealer servicing to put me off for life.

[Auric Goldfinger]

I think there was mention in another thread about  the chain rattle on Tsi engines and I believe it was cured by using a different oil, 5w-40 instead of 5w-30. ( don't think i dreamt it )

 

 

[Ootohere]

Yes helps a rattle,  helps oil use,  does not sort faulty chain tensioner,   link to octavia 1.4tsi rattLe and oil is at twincharger pinned oil user thread at top of this page. 

[Auric Goldfinger]

3 minutes ago, Awayoffski said:

Yes helps a rattle,  helps oil use,  does not sort faulty chain tensioner,   link to octavia 1.4tsi rattLe and oil is at twincharger pinned oil user thread at top of this page. 

 

Thanks for clearing that up George, I knew I'd read it somewhere.............

 

Is it 5w-30 to 5w-40 ?

 

 

Edited 26 August, 2017 by Auric Goldfinger

[David1980]

Little update on my car,

the case went to the ombudsman, who took a month or so to finally agree with Skoda/the dealer, which would still leave me paying about 2000 to get the car fixed.

I have since had an independent report compiled, it states the chain has stretched and ultimately wrecked the engine, it states this would have probably been over a short period of time and most likely the fault of a tensioner.

This has been given to the motoring ombudsman, who is revisiting the case, they seem to focus greatly on Warranty and not  the sale of goods act.

I await their reply.

I have found the entire process horrendous, I am a carer for a terminally ill parent and if I could've afforded a new engine i would have just paid and fought for the refund.

 

I will keep you guys updated and appreciate all the help and advice. 

[Warrior193]

On 8/26/2017 at 19:05, David1980 said:

Little update on my car,

the case went to the ombudsman, who took a month or so to finally agree with Skoda/the dealer, which would still leave me paying about 2000 to get the car fixed.

I have since had an independent report compiled, it states the chain has stretched and ultimately wrecked the engine, it states this would have probably been over a short period of time and most likely the fault of a tensioner.

This has been given to the motoring ombudsman, who is revisiting the case, they seem to focus greatly on Warranty and not  the sale of goods act.

I await their reply.

I have found the entire process horrendous, I am a carer for a terminally ill parent and if I could've afforded a new engine i would have just paid and fought for the refund.

 

I will keep you guys updated and appreciate all the help and advice. 

Hang in there David, good luck.

I think that you have pretty good evidence there and if the Ombudsman still says no, there is always the County Court.

[jacekpk]

On 2.08.2017 at 13:27, Rustica said:

 Hi @jacekpk please could you give me the part number for the oil pump chain?I am fitting the 03F198158B kit.Thanks and regards

Hi @Rustica! I'm so sorry for long delay. Chain for the oil pump has a number 03F115225.

 

Regards!

 

[Ootohere]

bump For members asking about 1.2 TSI issues.

Edited 14 November, 2017 by Headinawayoffski

[Kernow2017]

My car, a 2010 Fabia SE TSI 1.2 Petrol, has developed a bad rattle.  Mileage is 38500 miles. Engine has a CBZ number.

 

On starting up and idling, it sounds like a very noisy old diesel.  When driving it’s as smooth as silk.  Stop at a junction and back comes the rattle from seemingly behind the engine but in front of the footwell.  So I am assuming I have the same cam chain problem.   It has not been dealer serviced since new; there are some dubious stamps in the service book.

 

I thought I would put it in for a 40,000 service at ŠKODA and see what they come up with and take it from there. If anyone has any further advice I would be grateful.

 

 

[Ootohere]

Sadly that looks like you will have to spend money to repair then because Skoda UK are not going to help.

[Filipelol]

1 hour ago, Kernow2017 said:

My car, a 2010 Fabia SE TSI 1.2 Petrol, has developed a bad rattle.  Mileage is 38500 miles. Engine has a CBZ number.

 

On starting up and idling, it sounds like a very noisy old diesel.  When driving it’s as smooth as silk.  Stop at a junction and back comes the rattle from seemingly behind the engine but in front of the footwell.  So I am assuming I have the same cam chain problem.   It has not been dealer serviced since new; there are some dubious stamps in the service book.

 

I thought I would put it in for a 40,000 service at ŠKODA and see what they come up with and take it from there. If anyone has any further advice I would be grateful.

 

 

The rattle you are describing when you stop at a junction is most likely the fuel lines rattling (some got it fixed with a sponge and a zip tie).

http://skoda-fabia-israel.blogspot.pt/2011/11/rattling-noise-is-back.html

[rum4mo]

SEAT did that with quite a few of their Ibizas, but if it works, why not.

[xman]

Fro Honest John website

https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/honest-johns-motoring-agony-column/2018-01/honest-johns-motoring-agony-column-27-01-2018-part-1/

 

It seems if you complain to the right people it will be fixed without much hassle.

 

"Unchained malady

I bought a Skoda Yeti 1.2TSI 3 years ago using my life savings. The car only had 4,000 miles on it. I had it 3 years then broke down this week and was towed to the garage to be told the timing chain had killed my engine’s pistons and valves. I’ve been told I need new engine. My car mileage is only 34,000 miles. I think it’s a manufacturing fault. What are my rights?

DP, via email

It is a common failure with the EA211 engine and is a manufacturing fault. The reason is that VAG cut the price it was prepared to pay for its timing chains. That forced the timing chain manufacturer to extend the working life of the link-stamping tools and the result has been that chains stamped out towards the end of the life of the tool are prone to burrs that eventually cause problems such as the chain snapping. This is completely unpredictable because no one ever knows what part of the life of the link-stamping tool their chain came from. So, with that understanding, go back to Skoda and claim that the chain was "fundamentally faulty" from the day the car was built and that Skoda is therefore legally liable. (In fact, Skoda put up its corporate hands and replaced the engine for a fair dealer labour charge of £500.)"

[Ootohere]

Bump for a new member.

There are many similar threads concerning the early Euro 5 1.2 TSI & timing chain rattles.

[David1980]

My case is still with the umbudsman, an independent investigation has shown that the engine failed and that the Timing chain broke, what it won’t say is what caused the chain to fail.

 

this in my argument is immaterial, given the situation with the timing chains.

my car was brought from new, with 4 years FSH from the main dealer.

I do not hold much hope with the Ombudsman, will try small claims after as a matter of principle.

As a carer to a terminally ill relative I have now purchased a new car. 

[istannbullu34]

Good luck about that, i really hate when somebody loses his money and nerves over thr manufacturer's fault and get the burden.

 

I do not know how it works in the UK, does it mean you cannot take it to the court? I would do that

 

After i posted a photo of the engine here last winter, one member said that he sees drops of oil next to plastic chain cover. After i checked it with the flash i recognized that there is kind of "sweating" around the chaim cover but the oil level is not going down. Moreover i get some "roaring" sound since march when the car ignites which makes me think that it could be about chain - hope not.( Just after 10k???!!) This happens rarely  so it wont be possible to catch it with the mechanic for now. ( I did 10k miles after the whole chain was fitted and have around 65k on the clock)

 

I have not been  able to sell or trade it for a reasonable amount since January, might have to keep it as i am becoming angry when i hear some stupid offers.  

 

I strongly believe the chain driven  model EA211 could be a great engine  if they could test it properly and eliminate the design problems before starting mass production.

[rum4mo]

12 hours ago, istannbullu34 said:

 

  Snip  ----- Snip

 

I strongly believe the chain driven  model EA211 could be a great engine  if they could test it properly and eliminate the design problems before starting mass production.

 

The EA211 is a belt driven engine.

[istannbullu34]

29 minutes ago, rum4mo said:

 

The EA211 is a belt driven engine.

 

Ouch, typo sorry, I wanted to say EA111. I test drove a Fabia with EA211 before I bought mine, that was surprisingly good to drive and was one of the reasons I chose TSI before I knew about the defects.

Edited 22 May, 2018 by istannbullu34

[rum4mo]

No problems, I was just correcting that in case someone ended up thinking that EA211 was still a chain driven engine - or you were suggesting that an EA211 design engine with a chain instead of a belt - could have been a better engine!

 

A bit annoying to need to think about replacing that cam belt after 4 or 5 years though!!

 

I completely agree with you on VW Group possibly forcing any new engine design into production before fully testing them though, this has been happening for too long and too many times now!!