Clutch Eats Gearbox and Bank Balance!

[gfinneran]

Has there been any acknowledgement of the problem from Skoda/VAG, what are the years, engines, gearboxes affected by this? Another scandal in the making, surely the clutch manufacturer SACHS will be made to cover the costs of this back to Skoda, they don't need any more bad press given their record of the past couple of years! There has got to be a lot cars out there with this configuration just a matter of time before they fail, just like the water ingress in the Mark 1!

[stubie141258]

Does anyone know if all clutches fitted at manufacture are SACHS. Could this be down to a bad batch of these clutches?

 

Stubie

[Ryeman]

Does anyone know if all clutches fitted at manufacture are SACHS. Could this be down to a bad batch of these clutches?

 

Stubie

If you were to compare a current replacement version with a failed one, your question would be answered I'm sure.

Unless they are set on going out of business.

[stubie141258]

You would have thought with the taxi trade and the mega miles they do that this problem would be more obvious, that why I am wondering if its a bad batch of clutches from SACHS and not all all cars had them fitted.

[Jayelem]

Stubie: Relative movement between spring ring and clutch produces surface defects through "fretting" (micro-welding under pressure and friction) then, these propagate through fatigue cracking as the clutch is operated. The cracks grow until the ring cracks all the way through, then it dislocates from its housing. It looks like the fatigue life of this clutch is only about 40k miles. There has to be some variation, or they'd all fail, but in my opinion, there is next to no chance of this being a bad batch, and I think this is a pure design issue. I'd be interested to know if today's Sachs clutches show any changes.

[Ryeman]

Accountants think steel is steel, no matter where it's come from.

It's a worry when the accountants have the final say.

[silver1011]

Mine failed at 112,000 miles.

 

When ordering the new clutch the garage gave me the choice of Sachs or LUK, needless to say which one I chose.

[Ryeman]

Mine failed at 112,000 miles.

 

When ordering the new clutch the garage gave me the choice of Sachs or LUK, needless to say which one I chose.

I guess, the thinner the friction lining the greater the heat stress on the rest of the assembly also.

[Jayelem]

The steel's OK, I think. This is about stresses imposed and defect creation. Most fatigue failures have a fair spread of results because so many tiny variables affect it. The aim of the designer is to maintain the stress at a level below the fatigue curve.

[Jayelem]

FWIW, I looked at Sachs' site, and put in the details for my vehicle.  This is the clutch they offer... a totally different design.  I wonder why?

 

https://www.sachsperformance.com/Performance-Clutch-Kit-XTend-3000970036-S

[LeadesJohn]

And they quote from your link:

"you can easily replace it 1:1 against your old clutch and it will fit to your existing flywheel without any modifications. Also,there´s no need to send us your old clutch parts back ." 

I would have always rated ZF as first class. A premium brand. Im surprised.

I went to view products on Mick's garage for my model. and I ask.. Do we know which model of Gearbox, Chassis number or model variant are the most likely effected?

I drive a 4X4 which one would imagine would demand a different powertrain to say a 2WD 170CR, But the part numbers seem to match. Also, they offer clutch kits for both Sachs ( ZF) and LUK flywheels. Is it possible for one to figure out which flywheel is applicable to them? Is there a common chassis number to work from?

 

I have read this tread from start to finish and well done to all involved for making it relevant. I also have the Heebie Jeebies now.

[chimaera]

And they quote from your link:

"you can easily replace it 1:1 against your old clutch and it will fit to your existing flywheel without any modifications. Also,there´s no need to send us your old clutch parts back ." 

I would have always rated ZF as first class. A premium brand. Im surprised.

I went to view products on Mick's garage for my model. and I ask.. Do we know which model of Gearbox, Chassis number or model variant are the most likely effected?

I drive a 4X4 which one would imagine would demand a different powertrain to say a 2WD 170CR, But the part numbers seem to match. Also, they offer clutch kits for both Sachs ( ZF) and LUK flywheels. Is it possible for one to figure out which flywheel is applicable to them? Is there a common chassis number to work from?

 

I have read this tread from start to finish and well done to all involved for making it relevant. I also have the Heebie Jeebies now.

I'd say Sachs are still fine. My feeling is this problem was a bad batch of clutches. If it were a design issue, I think we'd be seeing a lot more cars having this problem, given the number of them on the road with this drivetrain.

The clutch, flywheel and most of the gearbox are shared between FWD and 4x4. The only difference is the bevel drive and the output shaft leaving the back of the gearbox to send drive to the Haldex unit on the rear axle.

As regards LUK vs Sachs, it appears you can use either brand clutch and flywheel together based on people having swapped the OE Sachs clutch for LUK without changing the DMF too.

[chimaera]

FWIW, I looked at Sachs' site, and put in the details for my vehicle.  This is the clutch they offer... a totally different design.  I wonder why?

 

https://www.sachsperformance.com/Performance-Clutch-Kit-XTend-3000970036-S

That's Sachs Performance - their high performance product line. It's intended for owners with modified engines who are running into clutch slip issues with the stock unit.

[Jayelem]

I'd say Sachs are still fine. My feeling is this problem was a bad batch of clutches. If it were a design issue, I think we'd be seeing a lot more cars having this problem, given the number of them on the road with this drivetrain.

The clutch, flywheel and most of the gearbox are shared between FWD and 4x4. The only difference is the bevel drive and the output shaft leaving the back of the gearbox to send drive to the Haldex unit on the rear axle.

As regards LUK vs Sachs, it appears you can use either brand clutch and flywheel together based on people having swapped the OE Sachs clutch for LUK without changing the DMF too.

I can't agree.  Start from the premise that this is 100% a fatigue failure; that is, repeated loading at a level below its ultimate strength produces an accumulation of defects in the steel's structure that initiate slow-growing, stop/start cracks that eventually grow to the point of ultimate failure through overload. In any manufactured part, there are literally hundreds of variables within manufacturing tolerances that can influence this (dimensions, surface finish, stacked tolerances, vehicle variables, alignment, variation in other system parts, materials etc.) and what I'm saying is that the design of this clutch is susceptible to these entirely normal variations.  That is, the fragile design makes the clutch more prone to failure, it doesn't necessarily mean every one will fail.  Put it this way; if yours failed, and a dealer offered you a like-for-like clutch saying don't worry it was a "bad batch" would you accept?  I sure wouldn't.   Haven't there also been failures across a very wide range of build years, from early Golfs to Yetis?  I think "bad batch" is often used as an easy get-out clause by tradesmen who don't understand what's really going on.

[chimaera]

I can't agree.  Start from the premise that this is 100% a fatigue failure; that is, repeated loading at a level below its ultimate strength produces an accumulation of defects in the steel's structure that initiate slow-growing, stop/start cracks that eventually grow to the point of ultimate failure through overload. In any manufactured part, there are literally hundreds of variables within manufacturing tolerances that can influence this (dimensions, surface finish, stacked tolerances, vehicle variables, alignment, variation in other system parts, materials etc.) and what I'm saying is that the design of this clutch is susceptible to these entirely normal variations.  That is, the fragile design makes the clutch more prone to failure, it doesn't necessarily mean every one will fail.  Put it this way; if yours failed, and a dealer offered you a like-for-like clutch saying don't worry it was a "bad batch" would you accept?  I sure wouldn't.   Haven't there also been failures across a very wide range of build years, from early Golfs to Yetis?  I think "bad batch" is often used as an easy get-out clause by tradesmen who don't understand what's really going on.

I'll let you in on a secret here - I'm an engineer too. I'm well aware of what fatigue is, and what might cause it. My suspicion based on what's been discussed here and the pictures I've seen is that the pressure plate spring wasn't properly heat treated and remained overly brittle.

 

I lecture in chemical engineering in a university here and one of the classes I teach is on troubleshooting. One of the big things that is emphasised in this class is the danger of holding onto one hypothesis for a fault source no matter what the evidence is. It's a trap I've fallen into myself on more than one occasion.

 

In this case, Occam's Razor points to this being a quality issue rather than a design issue for the simple reason that a design issue would cause far more widespread failures than have been seen up to now.

 

As it happens, Skoda are quite aware of this problem and have issued a Technical Production Information bulletin on it. I had forgotten about it until I was digging through the service documents I have for something else. The bulletin is number 2039427/5 and was issued on 26/02/2016. They cite a quality deviation of the diaphragm spring as the cause.

 

You can download it from https://erwin.skoda-auto.cz/erwin/showHome.do - an hour's access is about £7/€10 IIRC. (I paid for a day's access when I bought my car and was able to download all the servicing manuals for my car in that time - I digress.) Please don't ask me to forward on the pdf I have: it includes my vehicle particulars.

 

The repair that is authorised depends on the extent of the damage, but covers a new clutch kit at least, and a clutch housing or gearbox if the damage is severe enough. It seems that the work must be done by Skoda to qualify, but I'd wonder if work done outside their network could be at least partly reimbursed with the aid of a solicitor.

 

It's not clear from the bulletin whether there's a specific range of VINs affected. The models listed in the bulletin are: Yeti, Octavia II, Superb II in both FWD and 4x4 versions. If their system is clever enough, it may only expose this bulletin to affected cars; I can't say for sure. If it did, I should be worried too. I'll ask about it at my next service.

 

Looking at the gearbox housing I think it should be possible to feed in a fibre-optic camera through the opening for the starter motor: I reckon this could be a useful way to check the condition of the PP. 

 

A final comment from reading the service manual: DMF and clutch are matched from a given manufacturer i.e. LUK only works with LUK, Sachs with Sachs. That being said, I did see references in the Sachs catalogue to LUK compatible clutch kits; LUK may do similar for Sachs DMFs.

 

Hopefully this information will help some of you.

[Jayelem]

I'll let you in on a secret here - I'm an engineer too. I'm well aware of what fatigue is, and what might cause it. My suspicion based on what's been discussed here and the pictures I've seen is that the pressure plate spring wasn't properly heat treated and remained overly brittle.

 

I lecture in chemical engineering in a university here and one of the classes I teach is on troubleshooting. One of the big things that is emphasised in this class is the danger of holding onto one hypothesis for a fault source no matter what the evidence is. It's a trap I've fallen into myself on more than one occasion.

 

In this case, Occam's Razor points to this being a quality issue rather than a design issue for the simple reason that a design issue would cause far more widespread failures than have been seen up to now.

 

As it happens, Skoda are quite aware of this problem and have issued a Technical Production Information bulletin on it. I had forgotten about it until I was digging through the service documents I have for something else. The bulletin is number 2039427/5 and was issued on 26/02/2016. They cite a quality deviation of the diaphragm spring as the cause.

 

You can download it from https://erwin.skoda-auto.cz/erwin/showHome.do - an hour's access is about £7/€10 IIRC. (I paid for a day's access when I bought my car and was able to download all the servicing manuals for my car in that time - I digress.) Please don't ask me to forward on the pdf I have: it includes my vehicle particulars.

 

The repair that is authorised depends on the extent of the damage, but covers a new clutch kit at least, and a clutch housing or gearbox if the damage is severe enough. It seems that the work must be done by Skoda to qualify, but I'd wonder if work done outside their network could be at least partly reimbursed with the aid of a solicitor.

 

It's not clear from the bulletin whether there's a specific range of VINs affected. The models listed in the bulletin are: Yeti, Octavia II, Superb II in both FWD and 4x4 versions. If their system is clever enough, it may only expose this bulletin to affected cars; I can't say for sure. If it did, I should be worried too. I'll ask about it at my next service.

 

Looking at the gearbox housing I think it should be possible to feed in a fibre-optic camera through the opening for the starter motor: I reckon this could be a useful way to check the condition of the PP. 

 

A final comment from reading the service manual: DMF and clutch are matched from a given manufacturer i.e. LUK only works with LUK, Sachs with Sachs. That being said, I did see references in the Sachs catalogue to LUK compatible clutch kits; LUK may do similar for Sachs DMFs.

 

Hopefully this information will help some of you.

 

Thanks very much for taking the time for such a comprehensive and well-thought-out reply.  I've consistently tried to convey as much information as possible in a way that will help other owners without either coming across as a knowall or, worse, patronising.

 

I'd love to debate the points with you in detail, but I guess a forum isn't the place to do that; it so often comes across as point-scoring, and I respect what you've said too much for that.

 

You're right, of course, that incorrect heat-treatment would be a prime potential cause, but I'm fortunate to be able to check that. I was able to take a microsection at the point of origin, and actually, it was beautifully heat-treated; fully Martensitic, with no appreciable decarburisation, and a hardness that was completely appropriate for a spring like this.  I think if it had been poorly-hardened, a fatigue failure would have been easier, and at higher hardnesses, a brittle failure would have been more likely.

 

My thinking, therefore, was that i) The spring was good, but liable to fail because of the environment it lived in,  and ii)  With the volume of cars the VW group produce, a batch failure that ranged over many years and several models was absolutely inconceivable.  Also, assuming the Feb 2016 release date of the bulletin is accurate, that's more than six years after my own car was built. Were they really producing hundreds of thousands of defective clutches during that time? If you wanted to describe a fault to a non-technical public, then I guess the phrase "Quality Deviation" would cover either case.

 

I've been careful to use phrases like "in my view" or "I think" because that's all it is, my own work and my own view of how a failure like this could happen (albeit based on several decades of failure analysis) and all my conclusions have been based on observations and measurements on an actual failed part rather than hypotheses.

 

I'm happy to take some of your points on board, and please don't think I'm trying to get one up on you, like many tecchies, I find failure analysis fascinating, (and I know exactly what you mean about being lured into the wrong conclusion.)  

 

I suppose the only people who know for sure, though, aren't likely to share that information with us, and the bottom line is that for many customers, it's been a huge expense through no fault of their own.

 

Thanks again for taking the time to comment.

[Ryeman]

We never get enough detailed factual information relating to component failure as some think it's just too nerdy.

It surprises me that so much damage and cost to an owner can be dismissed as being a wearing component outside of warranty.

The problem and worry would cease to exist if manufacturers of faulty components were forced to pick up the tab.

Re fuel additives

Seemingly nobody know exactly what the difference is between the various brands of fuel as to their formulations.

In Australia its popular to talk up BP Ultimate but in the U.K. it seems Shell V Nitro (?) is the favourite...........but is it all marketing hype.

Where is the 'insider' spilling the beans?.

[lichfielddriver]

Re fuel additives

Seemingly nobody know exactly what the difference is between the various brands of fuel as to their formulations.

In Australia its popular to talk up BP Ultimate but in the U.K. it seems Shell V Nitro (?) is the favourite...........but is it all marketing hype.

Where is the 'insider' spilling the beans?.

 

 

well supermarkets sell fuel at a loss.....but buy bulk off BP/Shell (thats a fact, you can see "Tesco" liveried tankers in BP's yard at fuel storage sites), and ive done enough testing to put my money on cheap diesel giving worse mpg (and noise) cos i do 35,000 miles a year and keep records.

[DEL80Y]

 and ive done enough testing to put my money on cheap diesel giving worse mpg (and noise) cos i do 35,000 miles a year and keep records.

Done the same and Morrisons is by far the worst 

My Merc sounds like a tractor with it..

[Danny 57]

Well I have been using Tesco diesel for 20 years around the country (up to 40k miles per year) and never had a problem and had very good mpg.

Edited 27 December, 2016 by Danny 57

[Ryeman]

well supermarkets sell fuel at a loss.....but buy bulk off BP/Shell (thats a fact, you can see "Tesco" liveried tankers in BP's yard at fuel storage sites), and ive done enough testing to put my money on cheap diesel giving worse mpg (and noise) cos i do 35,000 miles a year and keep records.

I'm confused

It's the same?

But

It's worse?

?

[silver1011]

Let's not turn this thread into another supermarket fuel debate, there are plenty of those on Briskoda already to waste hours of your life on.

[bigjohn]

Any reports of this happening to any other engine / manual gearbox combinations on the Superb II range?:-

 

Known potential issue is with the Sachs clutch cover plate as used with a 6 speed manual gearbox/ concentric slave cylinder fitted to the 2.0 CR diesel

 

 

The 1.4 tsi petrol with a 6 speed manual gearbox and 1.6 Diesel with 5 speed gearbox have an external clutch slave cylinder and release arm - if you had the same pressure plate failure it'd have to machine through this arm first - you'd know about this!

 

I'm not sure about the 1.8tsi? or the facelift 1.6 Diesel (which now has a 6 speed gearbox)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[stevechaloner]

My 2012 Superb CR 140 estate has just had the same problem at 110,000 miles. Bit of a saga...

First sign of a problem was driving to work one morning, the clutch started slipping badly with anything but a very light throttle. I managed to get to work and drove the 31 miles home again by driving very gently. This was Wed 21st December. On 22nd I called my Skoda dealer (Heritage in Yeovil) and said I needed the clutch replacing and could I book it in. They said they couldn't look at it until the 29th so on the 23rd I drove it the 30 miles to the dealer and left it with them. I took along the form they'd emailed asking for as much information about the problem as possible so that they could order in any required parts. When I left the car I asked if I'd be able to collect the car on the 30th and they said that would be no problem.

Come the 29th I expected a call to confirm the pricing and when they eventually did call they said they'd road tested it and told me "the clutch is slipping badly and needs replacing". Brilliant. I was then told that the clutch replacement would cost about £990 at which point I reminded him that their own website shows the clutch replacement cost as £539. He said "the parts alone cost more than that and couldn't possibly get anywhere near that price". He also told me that the DMF might need replacing as well for an additional £600+ . He also told me he couldn't get parts until the following Wednesday.

I decided to contact a local VAG independent who quoted me £783 to replace clutch and DMF. Having lost faith in my Skoda dealer I retrieved the car and took it to the independent. However, 2 hours later he called to say the clutch had broken and machined a hole in the gearbox casing. He has now passed the gearbox to a specialist who will replace the casing and bearings and rebuild the box. This will cost about an extra £1000.

I bought the car secondhand but it has always been serviced by Skoda. Hindsight suggests that had I left it with Skoda I MAY have ONLY had to pay £1200 if I'd been given a goodwill gesture, but not sure if that would include a DMF too? Anyway, too late now...

[Ryeman]

^^^^^ at least you'll be able to boast that it's now got the updated clutch when you come to sell it.