I am confused

I always thought more surface contact and more grip = better in snow

But, didn't someone say NARROW tyres better than that???

Yeah narrow tyres are miles better in snow.

They cut through it.

Wide tyres are horrendous.

I am confused

 

I always thought more surface contact and more grip = better in snow

 

But, didn't someone say NARROW tyres better than that???

 

No - the best thing at gripping snow is actually more snow - so a block tread pattern with lots of cross sipes and grooves will cut into the snow and allow the snow within them to grip the rest of the snow you are travelling on...   apparently...

apparently???

No - the best thing at gripping snow is actually more snow - so a block tread pattern with lots of cross sipes and grooves will cut into the snow and allow the snow within them to grip the rest of the snow you are travelling on... apparently...

But thats tyre choice.

Size wise.. If youve got the same car with the same tyres.. One with 215 width's and one with 165's. The 165's will grip better in the snow and you will get quite abit further.

No apparently there. Trust me. We get snow here, sometimes quite bad.

Ran a polo on 165' 65 r14 winters and itd only get stuck when it ran out of ground clearance. Had it completely belly out once.. That was the only time it ever got stuck. The rest of the time i was driving around the Peak District ticking cars off as they got stuck and i went past.

Only really bettered by a 4x4 with winters all round and more ground clearance.

Tyre manufacturers are choosing to make "summer" tyres that simply aren't appropriate if there is a bit of water or snow on the roads. It does no harm to their finances if some people feel compelled to change their tyres twice a year rather than choosing an all-season tyre.

 

Are you suggesting the tyre manufacturers are deliberately changing the design of their summer tyres to encourage the sale of a different tyre type?

Are you suggesting the tyre manufacturers are deliberately changing the design of their summer tyres to encourage the sale of a different tyre type?

 

 

I would say buyers are lured in to buying cars that look good on wide summer tyres without actually knowing that a car with half, or quarter, of the power on all season etc can be as quick in the wet.  

 

Audi R8 versus 1.4 Octy in the rain/wet.  Darwin rules.

 

Edited 15 December, 201510 yr by lol-lol

Are you suggesting the tyre manufacturers are deliberately changing the design of their summer tyres to encourage the sale of a different tyre type?

Probably. Because he is that stupid.

Hes assuming you buy a new set of summers once a year, then also a new set of winters

Which is silly.

When your winters are on, you arent wearing your summer tyres down.

So say you did 6 months on each (for ease of calculation) your summers last twice as long as they would.

Vxh just likes spamming for a response.

But thats tyre choice.

Size wise.. If youve got the same car with the same tyres.. One with 215 width's and one with 165's. The 165's will grip better in the snow and you will get quite abit further.

No apparently there. Trust me. We get snow here, sometimes quite bad.

Ran a polo on 165' 65 r14 winters and itd only get stuck when it ran out of ground clearance. Had it completely belly out once.. That was the only time it ever got stuck. The rest of the time i was driving around the Peak District ticking cars off as they got stuck and i went past.

Only really bettered by a 4x4 with winters all round and more ground clearance.

Yes I know that... What I was talking about was the wide tyre with more surface area equals more grip element - it is for summer (slicks) but not in winter where tread has a massive amount to do with mechanical grip. As you say - not so all the time (we tend to get a lot of snow where I live in Sheffield on the edge of the Peak District.

Winter tyres definitely use the snow to grip snow thing though.

Are you suggesting the tyre manufacturers are deliberately changing the design of their summer tyres to encourage the sale of a different tyre type?

Actually he probably is. I was speaking to a local garage owner the other day out tyres and he noted that one of the tyre reps he had dealings with had commented that his particular manufacturer was making a conscious decision to reduce the width of the grooves / sipes on their tyres to actively encourage the purchase of tyres with chunkier tread for winter.

So it may not be as daft as it sounds and certainly newer tyres tend to have less grooves and sipes than previous versions.

Edited 15 December, 201510 yr by skomaz

Yes I know that... What I was talking about was the wide tyre with more surface area equals more grip element - it is for summer (slicks) but not in winter where tread has a massive amount to do with mechanical grip. As you say - not so all the time (we tend to get a lot of snow where I live in Sheffield on the edge of the Peak District.

Winter tyres definitely use the snow to grip snow thing though.

 

 

yeah. its all fun and games whichever set up you use

 

oo not far from me then. im in Buxton. SWMBO goes to uni in Sheff so i go over every weekend in uni term time

Edited 14 December, 201510 yr by fabiamk2SE

yeah. its all fun and games whichever set up you use

 

oo not far from me then. im in Buxton. SWMBO goes to uni in Sheff so i go over every weekend in uni term time

 

I'm at the top of Bradway - so not far at all!

Are you suggesting the tyre manufacturers are deliberately changing the design of their summer tyres to encourage the sale of a different tyre type?

 

I think that as lol-lol suggested below your post, fashion has a lot to do with it. Call me a cynic but I suspect that the tyre manufacturers are quite capable of producing a perfectly good all-season tyre. I have no doubt that Slicks are an essential feature for track use

Interesting thoughts, especially with regards to customers attitudes towards other peoples perceptions of their tyres.

 

I understand buyers wanting lower profile or wider tyres as they compliment the very influential alloy wheel choices, however I can't say I've ever looked at the actual tread design when deciding which tyre to buy.

 

I might however look at their ratings, whether that be noise, fuel efficiency etc. and then of course the reviews, all of which I would expect to suffer if the manufacturers were deliberately changing their design to reduce their performance in the wet?

 

In my case the tyre manufacturers aren't making any more money out of me, yes I have a set of summers and a set of winters, but as has been mentioned whilst one set is on the car the other isn't so I aren't consuming more tyres than I would be if I'd stuck to a single set, in some cases they would be making less money if the winters were a smaller (and therefore cheaper) diameter.

Finally!

The winter has arrived for real

 

I understand buyers wanting lower profile or wider tyres as they compliment the very influential alloy wheel choices, however I can't say I've ever looked at the actual tread design when deciding which tyre to buy.

 

I might however look at their ratings, whether that be noise, fuel efficiency etc. and then of course the reviews, all of which I would expect to suffer if the manufacturers were deliberately changing their design to reduce their performance in the wet?

 

Hmmm I tend to look at wet grip, tread pattern and noise... Maybe our attitudes depend upon where we live and what weather experiences we have???

I don't know enough about tyre treads to fully understand how different shaped and sized sipes and grooves affect their performance, this is why I don't tend to look at the tread and instead focus on their wet grip, noise and fuel efficiency ratings instead, oh and price of course.

 

If someone had a better understanding of a tyres potential performance by looking at the tread pattern wouldn't you therefore notice if a manufacturer had changed their design to make a summer tyre with less wet grip?

 

I guess I'm just struggling to see how the tyre manufacturers would benefit from reducing the wet grip performance of their summer tyres. All I see is disadvantages.

 

Unless all season tyres or dedicated winter tyres are more expensive than summers then all the manufacturers are doing is swapping customers from one type of tyre to another, they aren't selling any more tyres.

I don't know enough about tyre treads to fully understand how different shaped and sized sipes and grooves affect their performance, this is why I don't tend to look at the tread and instead focus on their wet grip, noise and fuel efficiency ratings instead, oh and price of course.  If someone had a better understanding of a tyres potential performance by looking at the tread pattern wouldn't you therefore notice if a manufacturer had changed their design to make a summer tyre with less wet grip?  I guess I'm just struggling to see how the tyre manufacturers would benefit from reducing the wet grip performance of their summer tyres. All I see is disadvantages.  Unless all season tyres or dedicated winter tyres are more expensive than summers then all the manufacturers are doing is swapping customers from one type of tyre to another, they aren't selling any more tyres.

 

There is the new wet grip rating but this only test braking with up to 1.5mm of water on the test track.  

 

If the tyre, say a summer tyre, is just warn down to the wear blocks, hits water over 1.5 mm it will start to lift ie aquaplane.  

 

With the state of UK roads ie the last of budget to maintain them, it is always worth pointing out that many emergency services and company employees change their tyres, summer or All Season tread pattern at 3 mm tread depth.  

 

Tyres have never been cheaper in my experience so, appart from the pain of storing and changing, would someone not use tyres with a shorter stopping distance in the cooler and wetter road conditions we have in the UK when the lives of those travelling in the vehicle and those cycling, walking etc near the roadways lives may depend on the difference between summer and All Season tyres? 

Edited 16 December, 201510 yr by lol-lol

Are you suggesting the tyre manufacturers are deliberately changing the design of their summer tyres to encourage the sale of a different tyre type?

 

 

So..

 

The almost grooved slicks summers we get are better than the old ones on summer condition roads

The winters are better at winter

Some people want an all weather which is really good int he summer and will get them home in the winter.

 

As for the tyre companies... Sure they sell two sets of tyres, but I don't think they make out of it massively.

 

Think about it, two sets of tyres = half as much wear on each, so if you're keeping the car any time you're actually no worse off.

Then factor in the fact that most cars come with huge (read 17/18" tyres) on their summers.

When most people go winter, they go down from these to 15/16" tyres on new rims, which are substantially cheaper.

 

The tyre company would I am sure rather sell you two sets of 18" tyres, than one 18 and one 16", but either way I think they're pretty much cost neutral on both sides as long as you've got somewhere to store them.

 

To mention the 3mm comment above, I change winters at 4mm and will change the summers between 2 and 3mm.

Certainly I'd never go below 2mm.

 

A lot of the german tyres actually go very hard compound at 3mm, which isn't great for grip, but as 3mm is the limit in germany, it's for a reason.

 

The tread pattern doesn't make them worse in the wet, it makes them worse on snow/ice, because 3 or so continuous bands of smooth rubber will get zero grip on the stuff. I don't think it's them making it worse for winter, it's them making them better in the summer.

 

I think people just need to be more careful and choose:

 

 - Full summer and Full winter tyres

 - Sensible blocky tyres or a decent EU standard all seasons that can handle a light dusting while you're out and still get you home.

Edited 16 December, 201510 yr by cheezemonkhai

Think about it, two sets of tyres = half as much wear on each, so if you're keeping the car any time you're actually no worse off.

Then factor in the fact that most cars come with huge (read 17/18" tyres) on their summers.

When most people go winter, they go down from these to 15/16" tyres on new rims, which are substantially cheaper.

 

You are saying the same as me...

 

In my case the tyre manufacturers aren't making any more money out of me, yes I have a set of summers and a set of winters, but as has been mentioned whilst one set is on the car the other isn't so I aren't consuming more tyres than I would be if I'd stuck to a single set, in some cases they would be making less money if the winters were a smaller (and therefore cheaper) diameter.

 

It was the claim that the tyre manufacturers are making their summer tyres perform worse in the wet than they used to in an effort to persuade people to buy all-seasons or winters that I'm not sure of. I can't see why they'd do it for it for the reasons mentioned above.

 

I don't know enough about tyre design to know if this is actually happening or not, hence the original question.

You are saying the same as me...

 

It was the claim that the tyre manufacturers are making their summer tyres perform worse in the wet than they used to in an effort to persuade people to buy all-seasons or winters that I'm not sure of. I can't see why they'd do it for it for the reasons mentioned above.  I don't know enough about tyre design to know if this is actually happening or not, hence the original question.

 

 

A summer tyre, as classified by the maker, is simply not a tyre that is good or great in the summer weather.  

 

So the incredible Michelin Super Sport, fab when it is say 20C, dry etc. But they are well over £100 a corner usually and they are quite relatively poor in wet weather.  Also classed as a summer tyre some Kuhmo KH18.  Actually more of a All season in reality, marked with the M+S marking, block pattern looks like something that could preform in both wet and even snowy conditions.  Currently do not own a quick quick cars so the Kumhos or Nexens are great.  If/when get the Clio 220 RS then Mich SSs will be a good match (when psuhing on in the summer weather).

 

Suggest using the site tyrereview.co.uk plus manufacturers plus Google and then put your life in that decision.  After doing a 6 month stint with DoT with the trunk road accident investigation team, occasionally impounding vehicles for being unroadworthy/overweight gross weight got a great appreciation for importance of tyres and maintaining them. Does not matter how good the vehicle or the driver is as in some circumstances it is the tyre that is the key factor in stopping in time.        

Edited 16 December, 201510 yr by lol-lol

A summer tyre, as classified by the maker, is simply not a tyre that is good or great in the summer weather.          

 

A summer tyre is not good in summer weather?

 

Is there a typo in there somewhere or should I be running my winter tyres all year round?

A summer tyre is not good in summer weather?   Is there a typo in there somewhere or should I be running my winter tyres all year round?

 

Summer tyre should be OK in summer although it is not actually tested other than for wet weather braking ie stopping in 0.5-1.5 of standing water in between 10-30 C I seem to recall.  

 

Winter tyre tested similarly but in the lower temperature band 0-10C from memory.

 

There are some UK Emergency services that run All Season, and not Summer tyres, all year round.  

 

If I were to choose just one classification of tyre to run all year round, because i lived in a flat say and had nowhere to store a spare set of tyres/wheels (like with the tyre hotels they have in mainland Europe), I would run All Seasons all year round and not Summers. 

Taken the Winter Wheels off the 5 today

No sign of low temperatures this side of Xmas

Taken the Winter Wheels off the 5 today

No sign of low temperatures this side of Xmas

 

 

Already?

 

WHITE Christmas predicted!

 

Else its WHITE Easter!

Yes. I agree with a white Xmas Wayne.........................................In Finland