It does make me wonder why VAG were so open about having the cheat device.

At the end of the day the car passes both Euro and US test procedures, VAG could have said nothing which is what they have been doing for years.

As we all know you can be a rubbish driver but still pass the driving test.

I suspect other makes of car have similar software tricks but are keeping stum!

This issue is going to run and run for years, everyone is slagging off diesels now and talk of banning them from city centres, pretty unlikely as we're talking millions of vehicles and the owners all vote.

But over time it will put people off buying diesels.

It does make me wonder why VAG were so open about having the cheat device.

At the end of the day the car passes both Euro and US test procedures, VAG could have said nothing which is what they have been doing for years.

As we all know you can be a rubbish driver but still pass the driving test.

I suspect other makes of car have similar software tricks but are keeping stum!

This issue is going to run and run for years, everyone is slagging off diesels now and talk of banning them from city centres, pretty unlikely as we're talking millions of vehicles and the owners all vote.

But over time it will put people off buying diesels.

Pretty sure that the US authorities had all the evidence proving it was there, and how it worked so vw had no choice but to come clean or find senior bosses heading directly to jail. Remember it's the land of plea bargaining so the threat of jail if they came clean was probably taken away.

It does make me wonder why VAG were so open about having the cheat device.

At the end of the day the car passes both Euro and US test procedures, VAG could have said nothing which is what they have been doing for years.

As we all know you can be a rubbish driver but still pass the driving test.

I suspect other makes of car have similar software tricks but are keeping stum!

This issue is going to run and run for years, everyone is slagging off diesels now and talk of banning them from city centres, pretty unlikely as we're talking millions of vehicles and the owners all vote.

But over time it will put people off buying diesels.

 

   I think it is only  to be expected that diesels will be clobbered by Local Authorities who will use their supposed pollution as an excuse to charge  in varying  degrees to knock  diesels. One London Borough  ( Islington ) is already turning the screws by greatly enhancing  diesel  vehicles with much higher  parking permits and no doubt others will follow suit. When the next  round of Govt. cuts  get introduced to Local Authorities, they will look for every way to find some poor people  to clobber with what every money making ruse they can.  Once one will find  diesels as easy meat, many will jump on the bandwagon. I was intending to switch to 150 ACT  petrol but they seem to have  problems with emissions and  dodgy  M P G  figures, so  they are out of the question?

It now seem the Europe 1.6 won't need as much, in terms of hardware, as previously thought - software (like the 2.0) plus a small mod to the air filter.

No expensive injector mod.

Peugeot to publish 'real world' MPG and emission figures for their cars in 2016 - 2017. 

VW are facing criminal prosecutions for tax evasion of mis-declaring CO2 figures....

 

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5f58c076-92a6-11e5-94e6-c5413829caa5.html#axzz3sU49UKH5

 

 

German prosecutors have launched an investigation into suspected tax evasion by Volkswagen linked to theemissions scandal that has engulfed the carmaker.

However, the company’s share price rose nearly 5 per cent on Tuesday after its chief executive said that the cost to repair diesel engines equipped with cheating software would be lower than expected.   The tax evasion inquiry centres on the fact that 800,000 VW cars understated carbon dioxide emissions, leading to lower vehicle tax rates. Braunschweig state prosecutor Birgit Seel said it focused on five VW employees whom she declined to name.  A preliminary review has found sufficient cause to launch a formal investigation, Ms Seel said.   VW has already set aside about €2bn to cover the costs of the CO2 emissions issue, including paying governments for the vehicle tax shortfall.   A VW spokesman said: "We are co-operating with the authorities and remain in close contact."  Meanwhile, the company is getting closer to dealing with the other part of its  missions problem — the 11m cars worldwide equipped with “defeat devices” that artificially reduced emissions of nitrogen oxides during lab tests.  Shares in VW closed at €115.90 on Tuesday after the company said it had approval to repair around 90 per cent of the European vehicles hit by the nitrogen oxides scandal.  The German carmaker is engulfed in the worst scandal in its 78-year history after it admitted to manipulating emissions test data on its diesel vehicles in the US and Europe. The deepening crisis has wiped billions of euros off the company’s shares and rocked the European car industry.

VW's new chief executive Matthias Müller told senior managers on Monday that Germany’s federal automotive regulator the KBA had approved a software fix for the 2.0 litre diesel engines and had agreed in outline to a plan to repair the 1.6 litre engines.  The plan for the 1.6 litre engines will require both hardware and software changes, but the cost of this is lower than many investors and analysts had feared.  Mr Müller said the hardware repair is a “relatively easy modification of the air grille or air filter cartridge. Our assumption that fundamental interventions in the engine would be required have not be borne out.”  Around 540,000 of the 2.4m vehicles in Germany affected by the NOx scandal have 1.6 litre engines, and some analysts had estimated that a hardware fix would cost about €1,000 per vehicle.  Arndt Ellinghorst, analyst at Evercore ISI, estimated the reduced cost of the 1.6 litre engine fix would be closer to €200 per car, potentially saving VW €3bn compared with his previous estimates.  The company has already set aside €6.7bn to deal with fixing NOx emissions but analysts have forecast the scandal would cost up to €30bn in total due to fines and lawsuits.   The German carmaker now faces three separate emissions scandals.  Two were uncovered by US regulators: the initial inquiry into excess nitrogen oxides emissions, which includes 11m diesel cars; and a more recent one that involves 85,000 Audi, VW and Porsche models with larger engines. The CO2 strand is the third, and potentially the most commercially damaging, because experts believe such emissions play a larger role in some customers’ purchasing decisions.  Mr Müller said on Monday that the first results from VW’s internal investigation — led by law firm Jones Day — should be published in mid-December. But the final results will take several months longer due to the complex nature of the investigation.  VW has set aside considerably more money per car for its CO2 problems in large part because of the tax issue. It has reportedly told governments that it will pick up the extra tax if local authorities force customers to pay more because their cars pollute more than declared.

Edited 25 November, 201510 yr by lol-lol

I always thought that when an engine was up to working temperature it produced LESS co2 and NO so if it was proved to be within these limits when run from cold as in the eu test then once it had reached running temp emissions would reduce from the levels at test but it appears to be opposite with the fix VAG have admitted to using from the way the BBC figures showed.

It is not clear to me, how is it possible that filter grill has such high influence on NOx ?
Can someone enlighten me with knowledge?

Final thought is with all those that claim (like on Panorama) that emissions played a part in their choice of car purchase. Really? Fuel consumption may have swayed a decision (within the constraints of everyone knowing that the 'official' consumption figures are rarely achievable) but emissions....?

 

Depends how environmentally friendly/conscious you are. Some people drive the Octavia Greenline or Prius or Ampera or Tesla....

I always thought that when an engine was up to working temperature it produced LESS co2 and NO so if it was proved to be within these limits when run from cold as in the eu test then once it had reached running temp emissions would reduce from the levels at test but it appears to be opposite with the fix VAG have admitted to using from the way the BBC figures shoswed.

 

With some gases less it can be and depending on what part of the system it is measured.  Higher inlet temperature, higher compression ratio which result in very high internal temperatures that is where the normally inert Nitrogen is being forced to combine with Oxygen.  

 

In cars with good Nitrogen oxide processing system ie good AD BLu/SCR and/or Catalytic converters can then reduce NO by a factor of ten or so.

 

So higher engine (water temperature) temperatures and boost pressure might create more NO but the Cat might work better.

 

So lower peak cylinder temperatures (like in a normal petrol engine or a diesel running at lower boost) and combined with efficient exhaust gas processing can achieve the low emissions.   

"VW said during a presentation it only needs to install a mesh near the air cleaner in 3 million 1.6-litre EA 189 diesel engines to ensure they comply with EU emissions rules.

Fitting the mesh will require one hour of work, improving the measuring capability of the engine's air mass sensor which enables more efficient combustion, another spokesman said."

 

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/11/25/uk-volkswagen-emissions-idUKKBN0TE1A220151125

Not having read the latest postings on this thread I do not know if anyone else has posted this link, which was sent to me  by WHICH  and was replied to by me, so I hope it does work for others who may well wish to partake ?  :-

 

                   https://whichcouk.bsd.net/page/st/vw-compensation-yes?action_code=FgxRWxYUOVIKQV0YAFIHTFM&td=TVFRb9sgEP4ryE-bVLuAcWwnL2umaaq0pA-tGmnrhDCmLhoGC0Mmb9p_35Fka3m6--67--4-fmfSRRv8kq2zz9vsKlOj0AYSN6pBKGG0HT4IZwrpxn9V7qbAtQUSAahTc8ils0HIkAc9KsAB9qrXXsnAozdnhA9R9xDax_sfX4_72y2uDh_3u61molx2N4nBO2GMCxd-kjmmFhuNucpmF728TJ9j9zadXpxV_3nBgTh_1kbN2frbd0D0YOPEn50f-WkFUjPoGv0pqWUpG4ybhJgTwkhdrloiAJFeiaB4n3aimFQ5ITmtEGFrVq5J9crQExd974HW4oK0TUErWlDKXhlxVp6LQdk0a-d-aWPE03VVYPQOzJ1E0J1RG7S7v_2ECC7wBt3cfUHtJdhGbXrESloXtCYbdNC2dz9ntH9AqyLld4cV26AHuAkUnq5XBX6ftF_EFED3fHb6LhPhHKHnBUrangu9bFZNz1jelg2FE1WVd42gOX7zoDcZaMXphx8PKC2t7Ax7O4vm6I9qQQtYDja6Php1YZ7Nz_78BQ

"VW said during a presentation it only needs to install a mesh near the air cleaner in 3 million 1.6-litre EA 189 diesel engines to ensure they comply with EU emissions rules.

Fitting the mesh will require one hour of work, improving the measuring capability of the engine's air mass sensor which enables more efficient combustion, another spokesman said."

 

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/11/25/uk-volkswagen-emissions-idUKKBN0TE1A220151125

Magic. Good old VW.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So is this actually (mainly just) an intake restriction?  Can't really believe the airflow over the MAF is currently so screwed up that it's the primary cause of the trouble...

Edited 25 November, 201510 yr by Wino

Not having read the latest postings on this thread I do not know if anyone else has posted this link, which was sent to me  by WHICH  and was replied to by me, so I hope it does work for others who may well wish to partake ?  :-

 

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Re the Panorama programme...

 

So the emissions test, set by the 'EU regulators' involves a cold, temperature stable car/test cell and set driving parameters. The Passat passed the test.

 

Then the Passat was driven outside the standard test procedure (hot engine, higher speeds etc) and it produced higher emissions. But that proves nothing. 

 

It doesn't prove there was any active 'cheat device' during the test - the only way you could possibly prove that would be to record the emissions during an open road test performed at the same engine/road speeds and engine/ambient temperatures as required when on test in the test cell.   

 

There are no requirements to pass the set emission levels at differing engine/road speeds or temperatures than that specified for the test.  

 

The manufacturers ensure their vehicles pass the test procedure, not really that surprising. I've heard tales of motor cycles designed with a flat spot at the rpm that noise limits are measured at.

 

It would have been much more enlightening if three or more manufacturer's products were tested (as per the official test) rather than just a Euro 5 Passat and Euro 6 non-flammable Zafira.  

 

Perhaps I missed the bit where VAG have been proven to fail Euro 5/Euro 6 emission tests and/or that the 'cheat device' was definitely in operation in Europe to meet the Euro regulations - I lost the will to live in the original thread after wading through the first few dozen pages.

 

Final thought is with all those that claim (like on Panorama) that emissions played a part in their choice of car purchase. Really? Fuel consumption may have swayed a decision (within the constraints of everyone knowing that the 'official' consumption figures are rarely achievable) but emissions....?

 

    Emissions output DID influence me because they determine the amount of the R F Licence, which along with the M P G are the main aspects of the  ANNUAL running expenses.  And  I would think such would influence most potential purchasers?

...but the emissions figure for the road fund licence is in Co2 and not NOx, which the 'cheat' device was masking.

Edited 25 November, 201510 yr by moley

 Can't really believe the airflow over the MAF is currently so screwed up that it's the primary cause of the trouble...

 

Technically speaking, it is possible existence of the vortex over MAF when turbo creates vacuum on its inlet. It is possible.

 

Ok, mesh can make uniform airflow, but then 3 logical questions came up to my mind:

 

1. Is there any similar solution in world of common rail diesels, turbo benzine engines?

 

2. MAF is between that "hypothetical mesh" and turbo inlet. Turbo inlet can also create vortex after mesh, so, in that case 2 meshes will be necessary, before and after MAF sensor. If "hypothetical mesh" is fitted very close to MAF second mesh can be avoided.

 

3. Mesh can get dirty from fine dust which is not stopped by air filter. Then, there is a problem.

 

Edited 25 November, 201510 yr by ppejic

VW press release issued today

 

 

• Next step in solving the NOx exhaust emissions issue in Europe
  
• Minor hardware measures for the 1.6TDI engines
  
• 2.0 TDI engines only need a software update
  
• Target: no adverse effects on fuel consumption and performance
  

Wolfsburg, November 25, 2015 – The clarification and solution of the diesel issue is progressing. The Volkswagen Group has presented specific technical measures for the EA 189 engines affected with a displacement of 1.6 and 2.0 litres to the Federal Motor Transport Authority. This means that correction measures have been fixed for the majority of the vehicles affected. In the development of the solutions, the focus was on maximum customer-friendliness. After implementation of the technical measures, the vehicles will comply with the applicable emissions standards. The final technical solution for the 1.2-litre diesel engine will be presented to the Federal Motor Transport Authority at the end of the month and is expected to comprise a software update.

The technical measures developed for the EA 189 diesel engines affected have been presented to the Federal Motor Transport Authority. Following an intensive examination,  these measures have been ratified by the Federal Motor Transport Authority. This means that there is now clarity regarding the correction of the irregularities for the majority of vehicles affected.

• A “flow transformer” will be fitted directly in front of the air mass sensor on the 1.6-litre EA 189 engine. This is a mesh that calms the swirled air flow in front of the air mass sensor and will thus decisively improve the measuring accuracy of the air mass sensor. The air mass sensor determines the current air mass throughput, which is a very important parameter for the engine management for an optimum combustion process. In addition, a software update will be performed on this engine. The time needed for the implementation of the technical measures is expected to be less than one hour.
  
• The 2.0 litre engines will get a software update. The pure labour time for this measure will be around half an hour.
  

Thanks to advances in engine development and improved simulation of currents inside complex air intake systems, in combination with software optimisation geared towards this, it has been possible to produce a relatively simple and customer-friendly measure.

The objective for the development of the technical measures is still to achieve the applicable emission targets in each case without any adverse effects on the engine output, fuel consumption and performance. However, as all model variants first have to be measured, the achievement of these targets cannot yet be finally confirmed.

Based on these technical measures accepted by the Federal Motor Transport Authority, the necessary service concepts are currently being developed for the EU28 markets concerned. The aim is to implement the required technical update in the first vehicles during a recall from January 2016. According to the current assessment, all measures in the course of the recall for all engine variants will extend over the whole calendar year 2016.

Volkswagen will ensure that the time needed to implement the technical measures is as short as possible for all customers. In addition, Volkswagen will contact all customers and endeavour to consider individual customer needs during the implementation of these measures to avoid any disadvantages for the customer such as possible curbing of their mobility. In connection with this, the Volkswagen brand will thus ensure that all customers are offered appropriate replacement mobility options free of charge.

For example, since the beginning of October, all Volkswagen customers have been able to check for themselves whether their vehicle is affected by the diesel issue. Atwww.volkswagen.de/info every customer can enter their vehicle identification number to obtain clear information.

With these defined measures, technical solutions are already available for the majority of all Group models affected in Europe with EA 189 engines. At the end of this month, corresponding measures will be presented to the Federal Motor Transport Authority for the 1.2-litre 3-cylinder diesel engine as well.

Based on the approach of the Volkswagen brand, the Group's other brands – Audi, SEAT, ŠKODA and Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles – are also planning corresponding measures for their affected vehicles.

In addition, until 31 December 2016, Volkswagen AG is expressly forgoing the right to plea on the grounds of statutes of limitations in respect of any warranty or guarantee claims due to the software installed in vehicles with EA 189 engines, as long as the rights to make any such claims have not already expired. Volkswagen customers will therefore not be disadvantaged by any waiting.

One thing is certain: the vehicles remain technically safe and can therefore be driven on public roads without any limitation.

Since the fix is apparently as straightforward and simple as suggested above and is expected to be "without any adverse effects on the engine output, fuel consumption and performance", one does wonder why VAG have utilised "cheat" software for years

Since the fix is apparently as straightforward and simple as suggested above and is expected to be "without any adverse effects on the engine output, fuel consumption and performance", one does wonder why VAG have utilised "cheat" software for years

 

 

"Every I say is a lie, and even that is a lie"  (Bedazzled).

 

 

It sounds like a restrictor plate used in Motorsport, less hp at current revs.  If it is so good why not done in the first place?

Edited 25 November, 201510 yr by lol-lol

Since the fix is apparently as straightforward and simple as suggested above and is expected to be "without any adverse effects on the engine output, fuel consumption and performance", one does wonder why VAG have utilised "cheat" software for years

once you start cheating its hard to stop apparently and they would have carried on but they got found out.

does this mean that VAG have a solution that will not affect mpg and performance. I sure hope so!

once you start cheating its hard to stop apparently and they would have carried on but they got found out.

 

 

Not strictly true.

 

The Euro 5 engines have cheat software, the Euro 6 engines do not.

 

The Euro 6 engines were out way before the scandal broke.

 

So they would not have carried on using the cheat software even if they were not "Found out"

 

Lee

Does any other common rail diesel motor has this "sophisticated air flow grill"?

If it is so good why not done in the first place?

That is a very good question that the VW board will be asking themselves I would think! It sounds almost good good to be true but we'll have to see if it passes whatever test the EU put it through. Somehow I don't think they will get anything that simple past the US EPA but in Europe it is almost a get out of jail free card.

Not strictly true.

 

The Euro 5 engines have cheat software, the Euro 6 engines do not.

 

The Euro 6 engines were out way before the scandal broke.

 

So they would not have carried on using the cheat software even if they were not "Found out"

 

Lee

It was 16 months before the thing went public that the WVU study must have made VW realise the game was probably up though.  Someone(s), somewhere in VW must have thought, "we need to find another solution to this now..."  Whether that was early enough to influence what went into the Euro 6 engines/ECUs I couldn't say.