Battery drain, and refusal of engine to even turn over

[Karsty]

Hi,

 

Just joined today out of desperation.

 

I'm writing on behalf of my step-dad. He has a September 2003 Škoda Fabia Comfort 16V Petrol Estate.

 

I tried searching this forum to see if the problem was already here so I didn't have to bother you with it, but I couldn't find it. Here goes...

 

The problem is after about 2 days without use, the battery has gone down to about 10V and will not even turn over when he tries to start it.

 

The battery is apparently of good quality, and is 2 years old. It was put in as part of the "cure" to the problem. At the same time he had a new starter motor fitted because they said it was faulty and draining battery charge.

 

He has had autoelectricians come and look at it. They found the glove box light wouldn't go out, so he removed it. The problem persisted.

 

He also recently left it at our local Škoda dealer for 3 days for them to thoroughly check it. They said there is nothing wrong with it. The problem persisted.

 

I recently bought a CTEK MXS 5.0 battery charger, which is apparently all-singing all-dancing, and can recondition a battery if it has not gone beyond a certain point. I left it connected up in the recondition mode for almost 3 full days. The battery showed fully charged. Even the little window in the top had turned green. Then 2 days later the CTEK indicator was flashing red, meaning CHARGE IMMEDIATELY.

 

What puzzles me is that once the battery voltage has gone below a certain point, the engine will not even whimper a few turnovers when we try to start it - literally nothing. Is the onboard computer telling it to do nothing?

 

Is there a cure for this?

 

Many thanks for any help!!! This has literally been going on for more than 2 years.

[vRSAnt]

I'm going through semi-similar on mine (where I'm of the opionion with the cold putting extra pressure that the battery is stuffed)

but this flags up with alarm bells for me.

 

"The battery is apparently of good quality, and is 2 years old"

The devil of all f-ups is assumption. Particularly with something so simple, yet so important for the car !

i.e. Are you sure the battery isn't stuffed?

 

I'm having the same where the car won't turn over in some conditions.

I would imagine that the cars ECU detects low miles and to avoid damage or something prevents even attempting the car turn over.

 

Secondly (although some would say Firstly as they have seen this and stressing this ) is my thread replies on my thread about the wiring fault, more details on that thread about that.

I'm not 100% convinced its 100% due to that in my case but thats only because I like to see and confirm a fault with my own eyes/proven but taken as being, it could be the common fault on both cars.

 

I've had and fixed the other wiring fault which is I think the alternator load one ( while driving) I think the wiring they talk of is to the starter and an apparently known weak point. On mine I can certainly see how its stressed and would probably benefit from redoing when possible but I need to get the connector first.

[sepulchrave]

Get rid of the boot light bulbs as well if you can't see them go out, have you checked for 14.5V from the alternator when the car is running?

 

10V means the battery is toast, you need a new one.

[wiredsoftware]

You mention that you charged it, and then 2 days later it was dead, was the car drivn in this time or just left standing?

If the battery has dropped to 10v it may well have ruined it. The question then becomes what drained it, the two basic answers are that the car is not charging or is using power whilst off (parasitic draw).

Edited 19 January, 2016 by wiredsoftware

[williebob]

I had a similar problem on a Superb and I had to resort to disconnecting the battery every evening (a one minute job) Long term this is no use, but in the short term it saves you arsing about with booster packs and jump leads.

[mannyo]

Regardless of battery age, the constant discharges will have killed it. If a charger cannot recover the battery then I'd get another new one.

You need to try and fine the source, it should be easy as long as you have a multimeter that can measure 10A plus. Youtube has a number of videos on current drain and how to diagnose.

Edited 19 January, 2016 by mannyo

[wiredsoftware]

Was just about to post that video get a multimeter and check both alternator output and the parasitic draw test. Follow the video above, or steps 1-4 of this page: http://m.wikihow.com/Find-a-Parasitic-Battery-Drain

Might be good to do this with a new battery in the car, to rule out problems caused by duff battery. As several of us have mentioned, the battery has probably been knackered by the abuse.

[Karsty]

Hi Everyone,

 

Many thanks for your responses!

 

Yes, if the car is left for say 2 or 3 days without driving it anywhere or starting it, then that's when the problem occurs.

 

That was a really interesting video. I'll see if I can persuade my step dad to let me loose on his car. I'm not really sure I can do any testing of the CCA with the multimeter we've got, but it has got V DC and AC, A DC, and Ω.

 

I'll let yous know how we get on.

 

Thanks again.

[VWD]

So you have a problem. It could be

a) Dodgy battery,not holding a charge

Drain on battery.

 

First stop -identify problem ( called diagnosis). Simplest way is to fully charge battery, replace in( check voltage) car and leave a a lead ( preferably the negative, as it's the safest one to disconnect/connect on it's own) . Leave car for a few days, recheck voltage  ,reconnect lead and try to start. If it starts,and battery voltages are similar, then battery is most possibly OK, and you've got a drain . Lst tie I replaced a battery on mine, I was bothered by a spark,when connecting battery ,so I checked current. Turned out to be a switch on surge which dropped to milliamps. But I had a meter with a 10A range, ( RECAP- to test current, metr should be on highest AMP range, and battery lead disconnected  .meter is placed between battery lead and battery terminal)

But ,if you have a meter with only a low current range, there is an other method of checking( approximately) the current drain. Get a low wattage car lamp( rear number plate one should do) and check it's resistance on the Ω range.note the value. Place lamp between battery terminal and cable end, and measure the voltage. Divide the voltage across the lamp by the resistance and result is current. I seem to remember something like 20 mA ( .02A) as final current on mine

Remember, mof of all in electrical problems- first find the problem, then you can easily find a cure.

[wiredsoftware]

Based on your update, ignore the alternator test as that would only be a problem if the car had been run, but absolutely check for parasitic draw etc as mentioned already

[Karsty]

Hi All,

 

Here's the latest -

 

We completely disconnected the battery, and it read 12.53V

 

We left it like that for 2 days, then tested it again, and it read 12.63V ! Hey presto, battery is not knackered, right?

 

So following the brilliant instructions in the video above, I tested the amperage for parasitic draw - it read 0.065A, ....... Now that, according to the video indicates a faulty draw of current because it is over 0.05A. Ipso facto I have to check it whilst going through all the fuses, with the precautions detailed in the video.

 

Plan to do it tomorrow.

 

Here's a bit of info about the attachable indicator from CTEK - http://www.ctek.com/gb/en/chargers/Comfort%20Indicator%20Eyelet%20M6

 

We've got one attached to the battery (and one in the cigarette lighter). What was odd was, about 36 hours after fully charging it was flashing red. BUT, the car started perfectly. Also, once I had opened the car doors, it changed from red to amber. What's that all about?

[sepulchrave]

Doesn't mean the battery is ok, check the battery voltage with everything switched on but don't start it, bet it drops like a stone.

[Karsty]

Ok, will do.

[VWD]

OK-battery voltage has stayed constant-but as said, what happens when you try to start car ,which is worst case scenario for a dodgy battery. Car starts- battery id OK, and you have leak to find. Battery goes belly up/car fails to start ,and you've got battery problems.

let us know.

[Alexandru]

I am currently having the same issues. I disconnected the fuse for the interior lights and the 'old' battery is still kicking. I do have to pull the lever each time I need to open the boot lid (the switch is on the same fuse) but as long as my engine starts at -20 I am happy with it. I measured with a multimeter that something was drawing about 1Ah with the car locked so that was no good (I disconnected the ground from the chassis and wired the ampmeter over there). 

[Karsty]

Well, I have just spent an interesting couple of hours on the car.

 

Results for battery test:

 

With nothing on at all,                       12.63V

 

Engine on, all electrics off,                14.25V

 

With engine off and all electrics on , 11.625V

 

Engine on, all electrics on,                13.93V

 

Are those the signs of a healthy battery or of a bad one?

 

 

 

Ok, then I moved on to the fuse box. First I had to find out how to make the driver's door think it was closed when it wasn't. So I googled and found out the switch for the interior lights was actually inside the door lock. So I fiddled with a screwdriver and moved the catch right up, - the lights went out.

 

So I set the multimeter to 10A DC, and connected it between the negative pole and the negative lead. I printed out this fuse panel diagram - http://www.norton42.org.uk/389-broken-windscreen-wipers-on-a-skoda-fabia.html

 

For fuses 1, 43, 44, and 49 there was some strange fluctuations on removal and replacement, but it always settled back to 0.066A

 

Then, something unbelievable happened............... I removed fuse 45, and it dropped to 0.01A ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

 

This was for the radio (there is no navigation system).

 

None of us can quite believe it, we are actually a bit stunned! All the same, time will tell what is actually the case.

 

So I have left that fuse out of its slot. At the moment, no radio, but (hopefully) no stress.

 

The next thing for me to do is see if I can get anywhere with the wiring circuit for the radio. Any tips, suggestions, advice?

 

Many thanks for all your help and comments!!!

 

(by the way, after all this when I was fiddling about with the door catch and door handle to get the catch back to the open position, the two front electric windows started opening. Should this be any cause for concern?)

Edited 24 January, 2016 by Karsty

[Breezy_Pete]

There's a function where holding the key in the door-lock fully one way or the other makes both the front electric windows open or close, so it sounds like you were triggering that somehow.

 

There's a VW technical bulletin about measuring parasitic currents in these cars, linked within this thread.  Two things worth mentioning from it:

 

1) the pulling fuse method is a bit compromised by the interconnectivity of all the 'intelligent' modules in the car, so when you kill the power to one system, it may paradoxically increase the quiescent current temporarily as all the other modules go to each other "hey, have you heard from Bert lately, I think he's died" or binary digits to that effect. An alternative method involving measuring the (small) voltage across each fuse is described; although I haven't yet tried it myself, it seems quite neat.

 

2) For measuring the overall current draw at the battery, they recommend you arrange your meter (or fancy VW equivalent) on long leads so you can still look at the meter with the bonnet shut, lock the car, and then wait two hours before taking your reading.   I guess this is so that everything that stays on for a while after lock-down has a chance to fully go to sleep.  On my Polo it went from something near 0.1A immediately after locking the car down to 0.01-0.02A (flicking between the two readings) after about half an hour.  One thing to watch if you try this - and your car has an alarm - is if you disconnect the battery while the alarm is set, it will cause the alarm to go off . Don't be tempted to set your meter on a low-current range to get an accurate reading, 'cos when you blip the remote and lock the car, all the locks and indicators doing their thing will probably blow the fuse in your meter. (This is how I know about the alarm thing, because once that fuse blows, the battery is disconnected).

 

It might just be worth re-running your test with this (2) method, to see if the radio actually stops being greedy for current after a shortish while. There may not be anything really wrong with it. Is it the factory-fitted radio, or a later substitution?

 

Battery may well improve with some (more) long charges on your CTEK, I think sulphation may have occurred to some extent, but it may be reversible, with some TLC.

[sepulchrave]

I'm convinced the battery is a goner, 11.6V with electrics on is simply too low, imagine how low it drops trying to turn the engine over. I would expect it to drop to no less than 12V even with all the lights and the blower on.

 

If the radio is aftermarket it is possible that both the switched live and the permanent live have been connected to a permanent live because VW transpose the yellow and red wires compared to other manufacturers, can you turn the radio on even with the key out of the ignition? If so this would be the 'parasitic' drain you seek.

[Breezy_Pete]

Well, I have just spent an interesting couple of hours on the car.

 

Results for battery test:

 

With nothing on at all,                       12.63V

 

Engine on, all electrics off,                14.25V

 

With engine off and all electrics on , 11.625V

 

Engine on, all electrics on,                13.93V

 

Are those the signs of a healthy battery or of a bad one?

 

[snip]

Were these all measured right across the battery terminals, or somewhere else?

[sepulchrave]

Seriously?

 

Am I really the ONLY person who thinks that this two year old battery which drops to 10V when the car is stood for a couple of days is fine and dandy?

 

I MEAN SERIOUSLY?

[Breezy_Pete]

In post #11 we're told that the (healthy) battery voltage didn't drop at all over two days up to yesterday, so no, I'm not at all convinced that the battery is history.

 

Just popped out to my Polo, and before doing anything other than opening the driver's door and lifting the bonnet, I measure 12.35V across the terminals, significantly less than the OP's latest. 

With ignition on, dipped beam headlights and cabin fan on 4, this drops to 11.56V, slightly less than the OP's latest.

Now I don't think my battery is in A1 condition, the car does (and did with the PO) mostly very short <5 mile journeys, and had up until last week a dodgy, resistive, main earth lead between starter and chassis, but guess what? The engine starts every time, with no difficulty whatsoever, even after weekends off.

 

Replacing stuff on the word of internet experts can be expensive and unhelpful.  Not too long ago there was a thread where one such expert first categorically recommended a new battery, then a new alternator (when the battery fix didn't last)  It may have been the other way round but it was both items, and only when that also failed to cure it, did the signal wires to the alt come up, and be investigated, and were found to be broken.  Now that cost that OP a lot of unnecessary cash, for what turned out to be basically a free fix. Do you happen to remember that thread, sepulchrave? 

[Alexandru]

Why would you care about battery voltage with engine off and all electrics on? What do you want to prove?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sepulchrave]

In post #11 we're told that the (healthy) battery voltage didn't drop at all over two days up to yesterday, so no, I'm not at all convinced that the battery is history.

 

Just popped out to my Polo, and before doing anything other than opening the driver's door and lifting the bonnet, I measure 12.35V across the terminals, significantly less than the OP's latest. 

With ignition on, dipped beam headlights and cabin fan on 4, this drops to 11.56V, slightly less than the OP's latest.

Now I don't think my battery is in A1 condition, the car does (and did with the PO) mostly very short <5 mile journeys, and had up until last week a dodgy, resistive, main earth lead between starter and chassis, but guess what? The engine starts every time, with no difficulty whatsoever, even after weekends off.

 

Replacing stuff on the word of internet experts can be expensive and unhelpful.  Not too long ago there was a thread where one such expert first categorically recommended a new battery, then a new alternator (when the battery fix didn't last)  It may have been the other way round but it was both items, and only when that also failed to cure it, did the signal wires to the alt come up, and be investigated, and were found to be broken.  Now that cost that OP a lot of unnecessary cash, for what turned out to be basically a free fix. Do you happen to remember that thread, sepulchrave? 

 

I do, the battery was indeed duff for the reasons you've just stated and I didn't suggest replacing the alternator because I always recommend replacing the brush pack when a dodgy alternator is diagnosed because it's always the brush pack and they're very cheap to replace.

 

So ease up on the personal will you, I have over 3500 posts worth of helping people fix their cars cheaply and effectively and a battery is about £35, hardly a fortune, certainly good value compared to a WEEK of procrastination and vacillation caused by muddied waters.

 

The car may have an incorrectly wired radio draining the battery, it may have broken signal wires but the upshot is almost always a duff battery, so often (particularly in winter) the best place to start is with a fresh battery and then once the car is running reliably to investigate the cause and rectify it.

Edited 24 January, 2016 by sepulchrave

[Karsty]

Hey folks, keep your cools! (~8

 

I finally got to test it that way that Mr Freedom explained, and YES, after 2 hours, the drain was EXACTLY THE SAME, 70 milliamps.

 

We will look into this caper with the yellow and red wires, but in the meantime we are CTEK-charging the battery, and keeping the fuse for the radio extracted.

 

Thank you very much for all your helps, it's almost unbelieveable. We can't quite believe my step-dad went through so many mechanics and a Škoda dealer and they couldn't suss it, but your info could.

 

Will let you know how the battery pans out, and how trying to fix the wiring pans out.

 

Stunned.

 

Karsty and step-dad.

[Karsty]

Wino, sorry, I meant to say that we did what you suggested in post 17, 2)

 

And yes, all those voltage measurements were made directly between the battery terminals.