'Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

[moley]

Rather than the corrupt self serving politicians we have in the UK?  We vote EU Members of parliament like we do UK MPs.  Our current UK government received 36% of the vote.

751 MEP's and only 73 represent the UK makes 36% sound a good deal.

 

Take car production as a key sector.  The EU mainland produce enough cars to serve their needs.  Us on this website mainly buy EU cars.   If we left the EU then the remainder of the EU could go straight to charging 10% on imports of cars for the UK.  BMW Mini and Jaguar Land Rover are already moving jobs and production to the EU mainland ie Defender and Mini.  If yo want to continue to want to but a Skoda, VW etc then you would find the extra duty and the growing weakness of GBP over the EURO is and will make all that we import from the EU, and other non-EU countries increasingly expensive.  

No reason why we could leave the EU but become a member of the EEA.

[gadgetman]

This makes me laugh every time i hear this. The irony of an anti EU MEP not attending is clearly lost on you.

Every time on Question time a UKIP representative was on the panel they used to get berated for not turning up and

claiming loads of expenses. How else are they supposed to point out the hypocrisy and lunacy of the EU parliament?

Its rumored that 1/4 of the MEPs are anti-EU stance how crazy is that? and the others are from poor nations who

are glad of the handouts and top ups.

Why if UKIP are so keen to protect UK interests and stop powers being handed over to Brussels do they not turn up and/or vote in key votes which directly affect the UK?

That's not irony it's hypocrisy.

You also realise how much as a UK tax payer you are funding these protest MEPs? That's before they also get money from the EU parliament. It blows any MP expenses scandal clean out of the solar system!

[Scribbler]

Why if UKIP are so keen to protect UK interests and stop powers being handed over to Brussels do they not turn up and/or vote in key votes which directly affect the UK?

That's not irony it's hypocrisy.

You also realise how much as a UK tax payer you are funding these protest MEPs? That's before they also get money from the EU parliament. It blows any MP expenses scandal clean out of the solar system!

 

No you simply don't get it, they aren't motivated by getting more powers influence for the UK They are focused on getting us out. Therefor you illustrate the malpractice within the system. You max out expenses and highlight the loopholes and the inaction and collusion of other member states. I admit this tactic is lost on a lot of the UK public who think they are workshy ex Tories but these are mainly the supporters of the EU, who hope for closer integration and feel European. To those who want independence and on the fence voters its obvious and I hope they continue to disrupt these beurocrats at every opportunity.

[lol-lol]

751 MEP's and only 73 represent the UK makes 36% sound a good deal.

 

No reason why we could leave the EU but become a member of the EEA.

 

The number of MEP the UK has is in proportion to its population ie approx 10% of EU population 10% of the MEPs, known as Proportional Representation.

 

Part of my job is implementing Free Trade Agreements and if the UK left the EU and tried to join the EEA (very small club) then the negotiations would take years and we would be left in limbo for years probably paying the full Most Favoured Nation (who says International Trade people do not have a sense of humour) rate of import duties to Rest of The World.  We would be in the winderness for year.  If we want to leave the EU we should set a date of 2030 or so to make sure we have the new trade deals in place.

[Scribbler]

But that achieves nothing. The irony is they are saying how bad the system is, whilst at the same time using it for their benefit and actively disengaging from doing anything. What will that achieve or change? Nothing.

It's like a football player going to a match, refusing to play and then complaining they never score.

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You picked the wrong football analogy. Its more like a player or players who want to leave a club and play for another (Get out of a contract that they were mis-sold early)

but the Board of directors wont let them so they play sh1tt and make it obvious that's what they are doing? I think you will find that's exactly what UKIP MEP's are doing. Pro EU people just can't see past the liberal Rhetoric.

[jlwah]

Part of my job is implementing Free Trade Agreements and if the UK left the EU and tried to join the EEA (very small club) then the negotiations would take years and we would be left in limbo for years probably paying the full Most Favoured Nation (who says International Trade people do not have a sense of humour) rate of import duties to Rest of The World.  We would be in the winderness for year.  If we want to leave the EU we should set a date of 2030 or so to make sure we have the new trade deals in place.

I don't understand why people think that trade deals are a one-way ticket, which is effectively what the Remain campaign imply.

 

If countries wish to trade with us (which they most certainly do, as we import £10B more than we export) then they will ensure that a reciprocal trade arrangement is put in place promptly (or a transition deal is struck until a formal trade agreement is reached) in order to not damage their exports. Germany exports twice as much to us than we export to them - I doubt they would be happy if we slapped on a equivalent tariff on their goods as Europe might apply to ours.

 

We are fifth, and heading for fourth place, in the World rankings for economic activity, that makes us a substantially more valuable trading partner than the likes of Norway (27th), Iceland and Liechtenstein (neither in the top 50) that make up the additional countries in the EAA.

[lol-lol]

I don't understand why people think that trade deals are a one-way ticket, which is effectively what the Remain campaign imply.   If countries wish to trade with us (which they most certainly do, as we import £10B more than we export) then they will ensure that a reciprocal trade arrangement is put in place promptly (or a transition deal is struck until a formal trade agreement is reached) in order to not damage their exports. Germany exports twice as much to us than we export to them - I doubt they would be happy if we slapped on a equivalent tariff on their goods as Europe might apply to ours.

We are fifth, and heading for fourth place, in the World rankings for economic activity, that makes us a substantially more valuable trading partner than the likes of Norway (27th), Iceland and Liechtenstein (neither in the top 50) that make up the additional countries in the EAA.

 

FTAs usually contain a mixture of rules about physical trade but people often forget that they also contain services openness and as the UK has lost much of its lower levels of manufacturing this is usually key to the UK and oft the EUs interests as reflected in the recent Mexico, South Africa and South Korean FTAs.    The EU has ones for Canada and the US quite far down the pipeline too as well as many for the Far East and South America. It sometimes appear that only China and rogue states ie N Korea will not get FTAs.

 

As I said these invariably take many many years to set up. I cannot image the car manufacturers or the aerospace companies like Airbus having much in the UK should the UK pull out.  They will offer the key workers a good package to move to the Rhineland or Toulouse and off they will go.  Banking laws, like the recent change in data centre rules, will mean banks and ICT will have to be established in the EU so the UK will loose much of that too.  I am meeting with BIS and Customs in a couple of weeks where BREXIT will now doubt come up and we, as one of the largest UK and EU freight forwarders, and the customs software house, US/Canadian predominately, will need to gear up with hundred of new jobs to deal with the admin and it will be a big increase in our turnover doing all these extra customs entries .  Every cloud has a silver lining I suppose.     

[gadgetman]

I don't understand why people think that trade deals are a one-way ticket, which is effectively what the Remain campaign imply.

If countries wish to trade with us (which they most certainly do, as we import £10B more than we export) then they will ensure that a reciprocal trade arrangement is put in place promptly (or a transition deal is struck until a formal trade agreement is reached) in order to not damage their exports. Germany exports twice as much to us than we export to them - I doubt they would be happy if we slapped on a equivalent tariff on their goods as Europe might apply to ours.

We are fifth, and heading for fourth place, in the World rankings for economic activity, that makes us a substantially more valuable trading partner than the likes of Norway (27th), Iceland and Liechtenstein (neither in the top 50) that make up the additional countries in the EAA.

The issue is down to open borders and free movement.

Just look at the other EEA members who aren't part of the EU. Yes they still trade, but their trade/services/goods are significantly more expensive than EU products.

Their ability to trade rests on being premium in their areas so people are willing to pay more. I'm not sure the UK has enough "premium" trade which wouldn't rely on the remaining eu members quite heavily.

Most companies would likely elect to move their UK operations back into the EU if we reverted to EEA relationship with the rest of Europe.

The UK is to heavily intertwined with European businesses as either a supplier or customer in so many areas.

As with the Scottish referendum it's too much of an uncertainty to risk for most people. I'm also sure as with the Scottish referendum employers will make their position clear to their employees on what leaving the EU would likely mean to their business and any continued employment.

[Paul007]

I wonder what the ratio of population movement actually is - ie the nos coming in (that we all seem to be complaining about) and those of us who leave for elsewhere ? 

[gadgetman]

I wonder what the ratio of population movement actually is - ie the nos coming in (that we all seem to be complaining about) and those of us who leave for elsewhere ?

unfortunately I don't think the UK track migration out of the UK.

It wasn't that long ago Brits were flocking to southern France and Spain to retire in similar numbers to the young eastern Europeans flocking now flocking here.

I think Spanish authorities published stats on numbers

[jlwah]

FTAs usually contain a mixture of rules about physical trade but people often forget that they also contain services openness and as the UK has lost much of its lower levels of manufacturing this is usually key to the UK and oft the EUs interests as reflected in the recent Mexico, South Africa and South Korean FTAs.    The EU has ones for Canada and the US quite far down the pipeline too as well as many for the Far East and South America. It sometimes appear that only China and rogue states ie N Korea will not get FTAs.

 

As I said these invariably take many many years to set up. I cannot image the car manufacturers or the aerospace companies like Airbus having much in the UK should the UK pull out.  They will offer the key workers a good package to move to the Rhineland or Toulouse and off they will go.  Banking laws, like the recent change in data centre rules, will mean banks and ICT will have to be established in the EU so the UK will loose much of that too.  I am meeting with BIS and Customs in a couple of weeks where BREXIT will now doubt come up and we, as one of the largest UK and EU freight forwarders, and the customs software house, US/Canadian predominately, will need to gear up with hundred of new jobs to deal with the admin and it will be a big increase in our turnover doing all these extra customs entries .  Every cloud has a silver lining I suppose.     

I think you miss the point that the rest of Europe desperately want to continue selling their cars and other goods here (we're BMW, VAG and Mercedes second biggest European market), so if Europe raises trade tariffs on UK goods and services and we retaliate, there's going to be lay off's at German, Polish, French, etc. car factories. They won't want that. And whilst they can move production to wherever they want it, closure costs will easily out weigh the benefits of moving factories.

 

And as for the banking sector, there are many foreign companies that choose to raise capital, swap debts, establish a listing or simply trade in the City because it is well established, with lots of technically proficient staff and has a reputation for financial expertise. London is ranked top or second in the world indexes of financial centres (Germany is 8th, Paris 7th). Of course these institutions could move to a European location, but the cost vs benefits will mean it simply won't happen.

[VWD]

Very interesting debate on Daily politics today on this ,re if we came out, would all the EU car makers move out. Then there's the UK banking & service industry. And from what I can see, if we stay in, could we depend on a certain number of EU countries to back any items we wanted to veto? And also the Question of  UK Sovereignty .

 

Looks like jlwah also saw that program.

Edited 4 February, 2016 by VWD

[domhnall]

I think you miss the point that the rest of Europe desperately want to continue selling their cars and other goods here (we're BMW, VAG and Mercedes second biggest European market), so if Europe raises trade tariffs on UK goods and services and we retaliate, there's going to be lay off's at German, Polish, French, etc. car factories. They won't want that. And whilst they can move production to wherever they want it, closure costs will easily out weigh the benefits of moving factories.

And as for the banking sector, there are many foreign companies that choose to raise capital, swap debts, establish a listing or simply trade in the City because it is well established, with lots of technically proficient staff and has a reputation for financial expertise. London is ranked top or second in the world indexes of financial centres (Germany is 8th, Paris 7th). Of course these institutions could move to a European location, but the cost vs benefits will mean it simply won't happen.

Quite a few of the American banks are already moving jobs to Dublin for that very reason.

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[Mikek3111]

They are all as corrupt as each other. Doesn't matter who you vote for or what you want your gonna get ****ed either way. They are all as bad as each other and don't give a rats ass about you, me, or uncle joe, all they care about is lining their pockets and getting elected again to keep their pockets full.

If you turned round to an MP and said that the economy can't cope with MP wages and we are going to make it a voluntary position only similar to PTA how many MP's do you think will still be there "for the good of the country and you, and me? none! Because they don't give a toss. They are all as corrupt as each other. Doesn't matter what you tick on the voters form your just going to get another greedy **** with no idea what they are doing except how to swindle their records to get a little more in their pockets.

[lol-lol]

I think you miss the point that the rest of Europe desperately want to continue selling their cars and other goods here (we're BMW, VAG and Mercedes second biggest European market), so if Europe raises trade tariffs on UK goods and services and we retaliate, there's going to be lay off's at German, Polish, French, etc. car factories. They won't want that. And whilst they can move production to wherever they want it, closure costs will easily out weigh the benefits of moving factories.   And as for the banking sector, there are many foreign companies that choose to raise capital, swap debts, establish a listing or simply trade in the City because it is well established, with lots of technically proficient staff and has a reputation for financial expertise. London is ranked top or second in the world indexes of financial centres (Germany is 8th, Paris 7th). Of course these institutions could move to a European location, but the cost vs benefits will mean it simply won't happen.

 

I do get it that BMW, Merc, VW, will still want to sell cars and that probably, eventually the UK will get a trade agreement with the EU as part of the BREXIT but there will be years of uncertainly whilst a trade agreement is thrashed out.  In the meantime BMW Mini has decided to set up in Austria and Holland, Jag-Land-Rover to Slovakia for the quintessential British car, the Defender, Nissan-Renault set up the Kadjur in Spain rather than expand production at Sunderland and the list goes on.

 

Goldman Sachs reckons that BREXIT will lower than value of sterling by 20% in the medium term.  EU countries laws on corporate taxation is encouraging firms to move to Frankfurt which is the natural centre for Europe for finance and with the ECB being there and the UK economy being increasingly marginalised as a long term investment or financial centre.  The world's financial markets are letting their prognosis known with the downward movements of the GBP against the Euro and US Dollar, projections for continued anemic UK growth.  I hoping sense will prevail, we do need to attract industry but leaving the world's largest economic group to go it alone is not the way forward but to push for reform within, rejig the UK tax system with less Ad Valorem taxes and more excise taxes to revitalise industry rather than relying on finance and service sector.  

Edited 5 February, 2016 by lol-lol

[moley]

I do get it that BMW, Merc, VW, will still want to sell cars and that probably, eventually the UK will get a trade agreement with the EU as part of the BREXIT but there will be years of uncertainly whilst a trade agreement is thrashed out. In the meantime BMW Mini has decided to set up in Austria and Holland, Jag-Land-Rover to Slovakia for the quintessential British car, the Defender, Nissan-Renault set up the Kadjur in Spain rather than expand production at Sunderland and the list goes on.

Goldman Sachs reckons that BREXIT will lower than value of sterling by 20% in the medium term. EU countries laws on corporate taxation is encouraging firms to move to Frankfurt which is the natural centre for Europe for finance and with the ECB being there and the UK economy being increasingly marginalised as a long term investment or financial centre. The world's financial markets are letting their prognosis known with the downward movements of the GBP against the Euro and US Dollar, projections for continued anemic UK growth. I hoping sense will prevail, we do need to attract industry but leaving the world's largest economic group to go it alone is not the way forward but to push for reform within, rejig the UK tax system with less Ad Valorem taxes and more excise taxes to revitalise industry rather than relying on finance and service sector.

Nissan invested £100,000,000 in the Sunderland plant to build the new Juke model. Nissan claim this will guarantee the plant to at least 2020. Toyota say they will remain at Derby even if the UK exists the EU.

[gadgetman]

They are all as corrupt as each other. Doesn't matter who you vote for or what you want your gonna get ****** either way. They are all as bad as each other and don't give a rats ass about you, me, or uncle joe, all they care about is lining their pockets and getting elected again to keep their pockets full.

If you turned round to an MP and said that the economy can't cope with MP wages and we are going to make it a voluntary position only similar to PTA how many MP's do you think will still be there "for the good of the country and you, and me? none! Because they don't give a toss. They are all as corrupt as each other. Doesn't matter what you tick on the voters form your just going to get another greedy **** with no idea what they are doing except how to swindle their records to get a little more in their pockets.

But the entire parliament of MPs costs us LESS than our MEPs do.

Why do you think they're so silent when theres scandal or discussion about MP pay & expenses?

Each MEP costs us approx £1m/year and on top of this they get money from the EU parliament for wages, turning up bonus and expenses!

[Mikek3111]

But the entire parliament of MPs costs us LESS than our MEPs do.

Why do you think they're so silent when theres scandal or discussion about MP pay & expenses?

Each MEP costs us approx £1m/year and on top of this they get money from the EU parliament for wages, turning up bonus and expenses!

That's why I say they are all as corrupt as each other. Governments wether here, or abroad are only out to line their pockets. They don't give a rats ass about you, me or anyone else.

[Ootohere]

44 Billions and rising for the UK to replace our broken submarines and our dud nuclear weapons with more from the United States because they are happy to take our money so we can be protected by NATO and allowed to the party.

 

So Germany do not have Nuclear Weapons and if they wanted them would they be allowed them.

 

The UK needs to spend some money on the infrastructure of the UK,

maybe get on with building the Nuclear Power Station if that is what England needs to keep the lights on, flood defences, house, school, hospital building, drinking water and sewage & gas networks renewal, roads, rail, seaports and  airports transport modernised in the UK.

The UK has plenty to be getting on with improving and modernising which will provide employment in the UK without the need to spend big on Nuclear deterrents out of all proportion to the Population of the British Isles.

 

The UK spends on having all the gear to go and kill others because the United States tell us we need to, and because they love taking our money.

[camelspyyder]

Unusual. The Original Poster is not often the one who starts such a radical Thread Drift...

[Ootohere]

You post as you like. and i will post as i please. Radical or moving on, it was a poll when i posted. it evolved/

It has to do with what the EU costs us, as David Cameron MP & PM runs around stupid now trying to get other EU NATO Countries to believe

the UK will 'Spend them happy', on lots of things if they help him out and not have him look hopeless.

http://bfbs.com/news/articles/army/5106

[camelspyyder]

I am in favour of debate on both the EU and Nukes - I just didn't see your connection. In 2 pages of discussion about the EU, no-one mentioned NATO, the US, Nuclear Weapons...

It has to be said that Scotland does financially extremely well out of the Royal Navy.  The Carrier build, and Submarine base, pump billions into the economy up there.  If you bin those projects, the impact would be horrendous.

Edited 5 February, 2016 by camelspyyder

[Ootohere]

LOL.

You will next accuse me of bringing Scotland into this next.  Deja Vu!

All i will say is that 'Better Together' and the Unionists were telling all that if Scotland was Independent it would be out of NATO for 'long time mister'

Out of EU was going to mean out of NATO because an Independent Scotland would be Nuclear Free,

(But then that was one Political Party saying that, the Government at that time, Governments can change, 

they can even be Labour and Anti Nuclear and Pro Europe.)

So the Unionists said, Not in EU, Not in NATO,  No protection, No Nuclear Automatically Not in NATO.

Forgetting the Big Populated and Wealthy Germany has no Nuclear Capability.

Never a mention of if David Cameron ended up with the UK out of the EU then the UK would be out of NATO.

 

Scotland does well out of hosting the leaking Nuclear Facilities and taking the first strike if any other Nation fires one of theirs off.

Scotland gets jobs, and the UK gets what ever comes in the Incomes from the Taxes, as do Scotland, 

but seeing as Scotland is part of the UK, why does it matter that Scotland gets to host the Weapons, 

the UK Government has Scotland getting the money spent in Scotland because Scotland has 1/3 of the Land Mass and more of the coast and more than 1/3 of the natural resources and higher than 1/3 of UK Exports for less than 10% of the UK Population.

 

The Billions can be spent on Building useful stuff, Property, Ports, Ferries, Cargo Ships, Roads Bridges, Train Lines and jobs that are not actually profiting from the Arms / Defence / Killing and threatening to kill people industry.

Those companies employing so many ex 'Sea Lords', Head of Armed Forces, Ex and Current Politicians, Ex Defence & Forign Office Ministers etc etc

BAE Systems as it happens to be.

 

The Defence (Offence) industry and warmongers are the biggest Gravy Train of all in Europe and World Wide.

Edited 5 February, 2016 by GoneOffskiroottoot

[vRSgone]

They are all as corrupt as each other. Doesn't matter who you vote for or what you want your gonna get ****** either way. They are all as bad as each other and don't give a rats ass about you, me, or uncle joe, all they care about is lining their pockets and getting elected again to keep their pockets full.

If you turned round to an MP and said that the economy can't cope with MP wages and we are going to make it a voluntary position only similar to PTA how many MP's do you think will still be there "for the good of the country and you, and me? none! Because they don't give a toss. They are all as corrupt as each other. Doesn't matter what you tick on the voters form your just going to get another greedy **** with no idea what they are doing except how to swindle their records to get a little more in their pockets.

 

Most eloquently put. Couldn't agree more!!

[camelspyyder]

LOL.

You will next accuse me of bringing Scotland into this next.  Deja Vu!

All i will say is that 'Better Together' and the Unionists were telling all that if Scotland was Independent it would be out of NATO for 'long time mister'

Out of EU was going to mean out of NATO because an Independent Scotland would be Nuclear Free,

(But then that was one Political Party saying that, the Government at that time, Governments can change, 

they can even be Labour and Anti Nuclear and Pro Europe.)

So the Unionists said, Not in EU, Not in NATO,  No protection, No Nuclear Automatically Not in NATO.

Forgetting the Big Populated and Wealthy Germany has no Nuclear Capability.

Never a mention of if David Cameron ended up with the UK out of the EU then the UK would be out of NATO.

 

Scotland does well out of hosting the leaking Nuclear Facilities and taking the first strike if any other Nation fires one of theirs off.

Scotland gets jobs, and the UK gets what ever comes in the Incomes from the Taxes, as do Scotland, 

but seeing as Scotland is part of the UK, why does it matter that Scotland gets to host the Weapons, 

the UK Government has Scotland getting the money spent in Scotland because Scotland has 1/3 of the Land Mass and more of the coast and more than 1/3 of the natural resources and higher than 1/3 of UK Exports for less than 10% of the UK Population.

 

The Billions can be spent on Building useful stuff, Property, Ports, Ferries, Cargo Ships, Roads Bridges, Train Lines and jobs that are not actually profiting from the Arms / Defence / Killing and threatening to kill people industry.

Those companies employing so many ex 'Sea Lords', Head of Armed Forces, Ex and Current Politicians, Ex Defence & Forign Office Ministers etc etc

BAE Systems as it happens to be.

 

The Defence (Offence) industry and warmongers are the biggest Gravy Train of all in Europe and World Wide.

 

The Arms industry is a minefield of ethical issues, but I guess most people in that sector are just happy to have a wage coming in.  To feed and house my family I would take a job whether I fundamentally disagreed with it's product or not.  You are so right about nepotism and jobs for the boys at the top.  I don't know how the Government of the day and the Military overcome the obvious conflicts of interest when contracts are given out, but it always looks bad when ex-Ministers and ex-Generals turn up on the board of the ACME Bomb Company having previously been involved in procurement. I seem to remember Jim Prior being a senior Minister and a director of GEC Marconi when that company screwed a billion out of the Government for the failed Nimrod AEW Mk 3.

Edited 5 February, 2016 by camelspyyder