New KESSY Key

[granty09]

Again, another article in today's paper regarding Keyless Entry and how easy it is to steal! Skoda one of the companies named, in particular the kodiaq! Just wondered if anyone who has taken delivery of their car this year, has the "new" motion car key as described in the second to last paragraph in the attached photo! 

[Berisford]

It'd be nice to get an answer, I asked the same question a couple of weeks ago but nothing definitive.....

 

 

[granty09]

41 minutes ago, Berisford said:

It'd be nice to get an answer, I asked the same question a couple of weeks ago but nothing definitive.....

 

 

I just had an email from the dealership I bought my car from saying that the technology won't be out for at least another year, as well as that my car should be delivered next month! It surprises me really how unsafe the Keyless entry systems are, surely the devices these idiots are using to boost signal is something car manufacturers would have thought about when it comes to security, I know I did when I first heard about cars with keyless entry! 

[sakta]

Its actually something possible on any car with Keyless entry. Car keys randomise the code every time its sent to make sure one cant transmit a single code and unlock any given model, from a 'password' (hash is the actual term) that is built in at the factory. However, theres nothing stopping someone taking this code as its being transmitted, storing it, and transmitting it to the car.

 

Skoda have done nothing wrong unfortunately, its a technology thats been around over a decade - my 2006 Renault had it!

 

Simple fix: get a faraday pouch. It is surrounded with a metallic foil that prevents RF transmissions, and therefore stops the theft tool from transmitting the power signal that would normally energise the coil inside the keys and make them transmit. And also, don't put the keys near your house door.

Edited 12 February, 2019 by sakta

[granty09]

3 minutes ago, sakta said:

Its actually something possible on any car with Keyless entry. Car keys randomise the code every time its sent to make sure one cant transmit a single code and unlock any given model, from a 'password' (hash is the actual term) that is built in at the factory. However, theres nothing stopping someone taking this code as its being transmitted, storing it, and transmitting it to the car.

 

Skoda have done nothing wrong unfortunately, its a technology thats been around over a decade - my 2006 Renault had it!

 

Simple fix: get a faraday pouch. It is surrounded with a metallic foil that prevents RF transmissions, and therefore stops the theft tool from transmitting the power signal that would normally energise the coil inside the keys and make them transmit. And also, don't put the keys near your house door.

I'm sure it will all become muscle memory eventually putting the key in a pouch, I will make sure I purchase one. I'll probably just disable kessy whilst it's on the drive at home anyway just to be double safe

[sakta]

1 minute ago, granty09 said:

I'm sure it will all become muscle memory eventually putting the key in a pouch, I will make sure I purchase one. I'll probably just disable kessy whilst it's on the drive at home anyway just to be double safe

Its an annoying way to have to keep your keys, no doubt, but sadly car companies don't seem to be paying any attention to the problem

[granty09]

2 minutes ago, sakta said:

Its an annoying way to have to keep your keys, no doubt, but sadly car companies don't seem to be paying any attention to the problem

Do the pouches generally fit a bunch of keys or is it a case of keeping the car key seperately in the pouch? 

[don_kiddik]

I got 2 of these, they work fine £5 each and free delivery :-

 

https://www.wilcodirect.co.uk/product/gadget-holders/defender-signal-blocker-faraday-bag-black-ss-ot01119/SS-OT01119

[granty09]

4 minutes ago, don_kiddik said:

I got 2 of these, they work fine £5 each and free delivery :-

 

https://www.wilcodirect.co.uk/product/gadget-holders/defender-signal-blocker-faraday-bag-black-ss-ot01119/SS-OT01119

Thanks Don! 

[Livrishind]

I purchased Defender signal blocking pouch RIFD from Amazon £8.99 for two. I have three yale size house keys and a small padlock key attached to my fob and a couple of small barcode tabs for screwfix and petsathome, it all fits inside the pouch. I used the other pouch for my spare keyfob, stored with the skoda document wallet.

[granty09]

2 minutes ago, Livrishind said:

I purchased Defender signal blocking pouch RIFD from Amazon £8.99 for two. I have three yale size house keys and a small padlock key attached to my fob and a couple of small barcode tabs for screwfix and petsathome, it all fits inside the pouch. I used the other pouch for my spare keyfob, stored with the skoda document wallet.

It looks like most of them are decent sizes and pretty inexpensive so I'm sure which ever one I get will do the job

[JKW]

I ordered two "faraday" pouches whilst awaiting delivery of my Karoq - unfortunately, for whatever reason, they both at times failed. I could occasionally open / close the door whilst the key fob was inside, meaning they did not fulfil their function in stopping the signal from the fob. I scrapped them & bought the "Defender" pouches after seeing their recommendation in AutoExpress and they have been excellent. They have TWO inner sleeves, & it's vital to put the key fob in the right one ! The outer sleeve/pocket is for a mobile phone, but to avoid slipping the key in there by mistake (easily done !) I stapled that sleeve up. 6 months continual use of the Defender pouches and they're working perfectly, the only (slight) drawback being they are large pouches, too big to keep in a trouser pocket. 

[Berisford]

I thought this thread was about the new Kessy key and it’s turned into the usual ‘i’ve Got a little mesh bag’ thread............Why are both Seat and Skoda carrying mention of new movement sensor security in their 2019 handbooks?

[don_kiddik]

17 minutes ago, Berisford said:

I thought this thread was about the new Kessy key and it’s turned into the usual ‘i’ve Got a little mesh bag’ thread............Why are both Seat and Skoda carrying mention of new movement sensor security in their 2019 handbooks?

 

Until we get a definitive answer then the faraday pouches offer the best compromise to the problem, unless of course you disable KESSY!

[patrolman]

We have one of theses in our key draw very effective I’ve even put the key in it and stud next to car and it won’t open 

very low tech

[Petroldsg]

In addition to / alternative to the RIDF pouch there is always the old school “Disklok” that clamp into the steering wheel.

[Sanqhar]

Lock the car with the key and within 5 seconds touch the door sensor, the red light flashes fast showing that the action has worked. This disables Kessy. 

 

We only do this when the car is parked at home or parked somewhere overnight with the key in the house.

 

tom

[pa_ko]

Here is scientific paper with forensic tests of different Faraday bags and other protection for RF / Keyless transmitter

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://ro.ecu.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D1165%26context%3Dadf&ved=2ahUKEwim2smO7rjgAhWJl4sKHTdABFwQFjAMegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw2WQjZIUDsbiiJYskXjQRo7

 

Clearly, plain Aluminium Foil (used in kitchen) offers best protection. 

 

So don't waste your money on bags or cases.

 

Especially that most of these don't offer protection at all (any success rate greater than 0 means that thief's will be able to steal your car if they wait few minutes - maybe they will fail first attempt but in next few LR/RF key validitycycles - each is 1 minute - they will get access)

[Kenny R]

35 minutes ago, pa_ko said:

Here is scientific paper with forensic tests of different Faraday bags and other protection for RF / Keyless transmitter

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://ro.ecu.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D1165%26context%3Dadf&ved=2ahUKEwim2smO7rjgAhWJl4sKHTdABFwQFjAMegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw2WQjZIUDsbiiJYskXjQRo7

 

Clearly, plain Aluminium Foil (used in kitchen) offers best protection. 

 

So don't waste your money on bags or cases.

 

Especially that most of these don't offer protection at all (any success rate greater than 0 means that thief's will be able to steal your car if they wait few minutes - maybe they will fail first attempt but in next few LR/RF key validitycycles - each is 1 minute - they will get access)

Maybe the start of you comment should read 

“Here is scientific paper with forensic tests of different Faraday bags and other protection for mobile phones .”

I don’t need a forensic report to know that with my KESSY key in my Faraday pouch I cannot get into my car or start it, so I haven’t wasted what little money I spent ( 2 pouches for around a fiver)

 

Edited 13 February, 2019 by Kenny R

[Karoqing]

How hard is it to just disable KESSY? 

 

Lock the car with the key, and within 5 seconds touch the driver or front passenger door handle. The red light will flash to confirm that KESSY is disabled. 

[Livrishind]

32 minutes ago, pa_ko said:

Here is scientific paper with forensic tests of different Faraday bags and other protection for RF / Keyless transmitter

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://ro.ecu.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D1165%26context%3Dadf&ved=2ahUKEwim2smO7rjgAhWJl4sKHTdABFwQFjAMegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw2WQjZIUDsbiiJYskXjQRo7

 

Clearly, plain Aluminium Foil (used in kitchen) offers best protection. 

 

So don't waste your money on bags or cases.

 

Especially that most of these don't offer protection at all (any success rate greater than 0 means that thief's will be able to steal your car if they wait few minutes - maybe they will fail first attempt but in next few LR/RF key validitycycles - each is 1 minute - they will get access)

They obviously did not test the RIFD pouch that I have because I have tested it and It does work. It also looks better and will last much longer than a bit of tin foil!

[pa_ko]

Unfortunately you don't get the point.

 

Your 'test' by putting key in a bag and not being able to unlock the car is not 'proof' that your car cannot be stolen. 

 

That is exactly what this paper explains an proves.

 

For people not ignorant to science here is baseline article which discovered and investigated this security risk

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://eprint.iacr.org/2010/332.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjKzLKt_rjgAhVhp4sKHblZAMkQFjAAegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw2R-gfpcw1fNuqgEq2zr84O

Article is published by referent Switzerland security lab, and is cited by more than 300 other authors, reports and investigations into this matter.

 

Don't be ignorant and waste money on 'snake oil' bags and other 'protections'.

 

1. If you need to protect your keys, including spare keys if you keep them in house, just wrap it in alu foil.

2. Disable (temporarily) Keyless via keyfob as explained above

3. Press Skoda customer service to provide movement-sensitive keyfobs ASAP for our vehicles.

More customers require from Skoda this security extension (new keyfobs), more legal pressure is on them to cope with insurance liability (as they are aware of ineffectiveness of the keyless security but they have not informed us as customers on that - same as if they delivered cars with keylock that is not locking the car or brakes that doesn't stop the vehicle). My lawyer advised me and I wrote them formal letter requesting from them explanation of means they provide me to secure unauthorized access to my vehicle, based on lack of any note or warning in owners manual on this topic. And if there is no such clause in manual or contract, my lawyer advised me that I can rise this issue as warranty issue i.e. breach of warranty as delivered goods are not in accordance to specifications.

 

 

[Kenny R]

I presume you omitted to read this bit from the link you just posted above...

 

“6.1 Immediate Countermeasures
Shielding the Key One obvious countermeasure against relay attacks is to prevent the communication between the key and the car at all times except when the owner wants to unlock the car. The users of PKES-enabled cars can achieve this by placing the car key (fob) within a protective metallic shielding thus creating a Faraday cage around the key. A small key case lined with aluminum might suffice for this purpose. While the key is in the key case, it would not re- ceive any signals from the car (relayed or direct). When the user approaches the car, he could take the key out of the case and open and start the car using the PKES system. The users who would opt for this countermeasure would loose only little of the convenience of PKES. Similar countermea- sures have been proposed to block the possibility of remote reading of RFID tags embedded in e-passports. However, an attacker might be able to increase the reading power suf- ficiently to mitigate the attenuation provided by the protec- tive shield. We note that designing a good Faraday cage is challenging [35]. Still, this countermeasure would make the relay attack very difficult in practice.”
 

Edited 13 February, 2019 by Kenny R

[sakta]

As an Electronic Engineer, I assure you they work @pa_ko. At Deliveroo, workers would get around deliveries from ****e restaurants by placing phones inside delivery bags, which are lined in a foil material. It works 100% for blocking RF signals, weak ones at least. Faraday cages are not new tech and are simple for low power transmitters, such as what cars use. Aluminium trays for storing food work fine, so will aluminium foil, combine that with the distance and brick walls of your house....

Edited 13 February, 2019 by sakta

[pa_ko]

21 minutes ago, sakta said:

As an Electronic Engineer, I assure you they work @pa_ko. At Deliveroo, workers would get around deliveries from ****e restaurants by placing phones inside delivery bags, which are lined in a foil material. It works 100% for blocking RF signals, weak ones at least. Faraday cages are not new tech and are simple for low power transmitters, such as what cars use. Aluminium trays for storing food work fine, so will aluminium foil, combine that with the distance and brick walls of your house....

I'm also Electrical engineer and you are generally right. Yet, few specifics of keyless system and relay attacks described above are limiting effectiveness of badly designed (cheap Chinese) 'Faraday bags'. For instance, these bags are not providing full foil lining but rather some mesh or conductive foam lining which enables direction radiation to penetrate / escape from bag. Also closing is usually not providing full conductive sealing. Together with above explanained active (using amplifier for signal) really method used by thief's, you get effective possibly for cars to be stolen if keyfobs is 'protected' in such bags on distance 3-8 meters. So even brick walls may drop signal level for few decibels, effective active really may be achieved by thief's standing outside your house wall or on stairs Infront of your apartment. And yes they don't have to stand physicaly there, they can just plant/leave active really box (size of matchbox) and/or use directional antenna to catch your weak signal from keyfobs.