On 05/10/2020 at 22:51, FabiaGonzales said:

 

The same exhaust is used in the 1.4tsi, and is capable of 230bhp with a hybrid turbo, it would make an improvement being straightpiped, but it's not the limit.

 

I'll be honest that peak does't look super healthy for the turbo, how much boost was that making? And note how your peak power is at only 4300 rpm, and how it drops off significantly after 4500 rpm.

 

My tuner was logging everything with VCDS monitoring boost and such, and found that it was actually closing off the throttle, no matter how much or how little boost we threw at it at the low end, it wouldn't let it past 130bhp beyond 5000rpm, its like there's some safety limiter it was hitting but we weren't able to figure it out in the time we had available.

 

When i go back in for my second attempt, we're chopping out the secondary cat too, so we'll see how much of a difference that makes. The 1.8tsi uses a larger diamater exhaust which already ditches the secondary cat, i'm not sure if the o2 sensor holes are compatible though. Plus the brackets would need some adaptation for where it braces to the back of the engine block

I think I must be getting that throttle closing thing too, and that is causing the boost fluctuation. I've read about it on a Golf forum but the thread didn't reach a conclusion and I know the hardware is different. Must be some kind of safety cut out. I'm running 1.4 bar max but under WOT 3000-4000rpm it doesn't hold it, it falls to 1.25 ish and climbs again. Last night I realised that I was still running the yellow spring in my Forge BOV 1.4 bar is the top end range for the standard spring so I changed it to the blue one. Still having the issue but may be slightly better. I also gapped the sparkplugs to 0.70mm but since been advised by the tuner to try 0.60 but haven't yet

1 minute ago, Monkey_Dan said:

I think I must be getting that throttle closing thing too, and that is causing the boost fluctuation. I've read about it on a Golf forum but the thread didn't reach a conclusion and I know the hardware is different. Must be some kind of safety cut out. I'm running 1.4 bar max but under WOT 3000-4000rpm it doesn't hold it, it falls to 1.25 ish and climbs again. Last night I realised that I was still running the yellow spring in my Forge BOV 1.4 bar is the top end range for the standard spring so I changed it to the blue one. Still having the issue but may be slightly better. I also gapped the sparkplugs to 0.70mm but since been advised by the tuner to try 0.60 but haven't yet

 

I'm not running any BOV, it's wierd how it falls off but starts to climb again.

 

I have found a difference between the 1.2/1.4tsi exhausts and the 1.8tsi exhaust, the 1.2 and 1.4 exhausts go from 55mm (2.15") to 50mm (1.95") after the first resonator.

While the 1.8tsi exhaust stays at 55m all the way through to the end. I'm wondering if as it hits that 185ish bhp region the smaller pipe at the end of the exhaust is causing a surge of backpressure, stalling the turbo, then as the power drops off, the backpressure dissapears and it starts to gain a bit again.

 

As it's just a clamp between the two parts, i might get them to take off that clamp and dyno it without the second half of the exhaust, i'd imagine it'll be stupid loud, but it'd prove or disprove my idea.

7 hours ago, FabiaGonzales said:

 

I'm not running any BOV, it's wierd how it falls off but starts to climb again.

 

I have found a difference between the 1.2/1.4tsi exhausts and the 1.8tsi exhaust, the 1.2 and 1.4 exhausts go from 55mm (2.15") to 50mm (1.95") after the first resonator.

While the 1.8tsi exhaust stays at 55m all the way through to the end. I'm wondering if as it hits that 185ish bhp region the smaller pipe at the end of the exhaust is causing a surge of backpressure, stalling the turbo, then as the power drops off, the backpressure dissapears and it starts to gain a bit again.

 

As it's just a clamp between the two parts, i might get them to take off that clamp and dyno it without the second half of the exhaust, i'd imagine it'll be stupid loud, but it'd prove or disprove my idea.

I've just got an app called torque on my phone that I can contect to my odb port using a Bluetooth adapter. Trying to work out which is cause and which is affect. Need to work out which sensors to log. Boost, fuel rail pressure, throttle position (there are a number). Then need to find enough road to run through some kind of test program. My tuner saw stable boost on the rr 

12 hours ago, Monkey_Dan said:

I've just got an app called torque on my phone that I can contect to my odb port using a Bluetooth adapter. Trying to work out which is cause and which is affect. Need to work out which sensors to log. Boost, fuel rail pressure, throttle position (there are a number). Then need to find enough road to run through some kind of test program. My tuner saw stable boost on the rr 

That doesn’t take the actual boost from the sensor it’s a calculated measure on the app not actual. 

12 hours ago, Monkey_Dan said:

I've just got an app called torque on my phone t

What phone? Been trying to find how to get it on iOS for ages but cant for some reason

15 minutes ago, FabiaGonzales said:

What phone? Been trying to find how to get it on iOS for ages but cant for some reason

Its not available on iOS! Download DashCmd for iOS. 

1 hour ago, FabiaGonzales said:

What phone? Been trying to find how to get it on iOS for ages but cant for some reason

It’s not accurate. 

3 hours ago, AMD87 said:

That doesn’t take the actual boost from the sensor it’s a calculated measure on the app not actual. 

 

I thought boost was taken from the ecu. Some readings are calculated in the app like bhp and torque I wouldn't rely on them at all. I'm more looking at the throttle, fuel, revs and boost readings.

On 08/10/2020 at 15:20, FabiaGonzales said:

 

I'm not running any BOV, it's wierd how it falls off but starts to climb again.

 

I have found a difference between the 1.2/1.4tsi exhausts and the 1.8tsi exhaust, the 1.2 and 1.4 exhausts go from 55mm (2.15") to 50mm (1.95") after the first resonator.

While the 1.8tsi exhaust stays at 55m all the way through to the end. I'm wondering if as it hits that 185ish bhp region the smaller pipe at the end of the exhaust is causing a surge of backpressure, stalling the turbo, then as the power drops off, the backpressure dissapears and it starts to gain a bit again.

 

As it's just a clamp between the two parts, i might get them to take off that clamp and dyno it without the second half of the exhaust, i'd imagine it'll be stupid loud, but it'd prove or disprove my idea.

 

You might want to bring some ear muffs if you do that... loud would be an understatement.

3 hours ago, Monkey_Dan said:

 

I thought boost was taken from the ecu. Some readings are calculated in the app like bhp and torque I wouldn't rely on them at all. I'm more looking at the throttle, fuel, revs and boost readings.

Nope boost is calculated had this argument with the app developers a couple of years back. 

47 minutes ago, AMD87 said:

Nope boost is calculated had this argument with the app developers a couple of years back. 

 

What the hell kind of point is that! What a load of ****e. Do you know how it's calculated?

8 minutes ago, Monkey_Dan said:

 

What the hell kind of point is that! What a load of ****e. Do you know how it's calculated?

This is what they said back then they then went on to claim it was coming from the ecu and it went down hill from there till they stopped replying 😂

 

only thing I’ve found that will give it correctly is vcds. 

On 09/10/2020 at 16:19, TheFozzy said:

 

You might want to bring some ear muffs if you do that... loud would be an understatement.

 

Haha, have you done such a thing?

17 minutes ago, FabiaGonzales said:

 

Haha, have you done such a thing?

Yeah, I took the rear section off out of curiosity of how loud the Fabia would be straight piped, sounds ok, but it's just deafening and definitely not road legal.  I am however planning to build a custom 2.5 inch turbo back exhaust in the next 6-8 months, and might even look into a custom manifold at some point.

42 minutes ago, TheFozzy said:

Yeah, I took the rear section off out of curiosity of how loud the Fabia would be straight piped, sounds ok, but it's just deafening and definitely not road legal.  I am however planning to build a custom 2.5 inch turbo back exhaust in the next 6-8 months, and might even look into a custom manifold at some point.

A custom manifold sound ambitious! I assume intake as there isn't an exhaust manifold to speak of, the turbo bolts straight onto the back of the head.

 

2.5 inch is good for 300bhp ish, and shouldn't be too loud if done appropriately, unitronic offers a 3" sport cat section which costs $699, completely overkill!

 

I'm looking at trying to pick up a 2nd hand Polo GTI exhaust back section (55mm opposed to 50mm on the 1.2/1.4's), if unbolting the rear section proves to be beneficial.

2 hours ago, FabiaGonzales said:

A custom manifold sound ambitious! I assume intake as there isn't an exhaust manifold to speak of, the turbo bolts straight onto the back of the head.

 

2.5 inch is good for 300bhp ish, and shouldn't be too loud if done appropriately, unitronic offers a 3" sport cat section which costs $699, completely overkill!

 

I'm looking at trying to pick up a 2nd hand Polo GTI exhaust back section (55mm opposed to 50mm on the 1.2/1.4's), if unbolting the rear section proves to be beneficial.

I'm thinking of putting a 200 cell magnaflow cat in the same place as the first OEM cat, they cost about £150, as for the resonator and back box, I'm still undecided.

12 minutes ago, TheFozzy said:

I'm thinking of putting a 200 cell magnaflow cat in the same place as the first OEM cat, they cost about £150, as for the resonator and back box, I'm still undecided.

Ah going for a magnaflow exhaust?

 

If you went 2.5" on the downpipe i'd suggest going for 2.5" the rest of the way too, have to find someone who does 2.5" silencers and mifflers and get someone to bend and weld some pipe between em.

 

For ease of fitting and longevity id recommend v-band clamps rather than the usual flimsy sleeve clamp and putty style things

Just now, FabiaGonzales said:

Ah going for a magnaflow exhaust?

 

If you went 2.5" on the downpipe i'd suggest going for 2.5" the rest of the way too, have to find someone who does 2.5" silencers and mufflers and get someone to bend and weld some pipe between em.

 

For ease of fitting and longevity id recommend v-band clamps rather than the usual flimsy sleeve clamp and putty style things

 

Full 2.5 inch all the way is the plan, as for piping, I'll probably buy some straight and pre-bent sections, cut to size and then tig weld them.  And adding some v-band clamps also sound like a plan.

3 hours ago, FabiaGonzales said:

A custom manifold sound ambitious! I assume intake as there isn't an exhaust manifold to speak of, the turbo bolts straight onto the back of the head.

 

2.5 inch is good for 300bhp ish, and shouldn't be too loud if done appropriately, unitronic offers a 3" sport cat section which costs $699, completely overkill!

 

I'm looking at trying to pick up a 2nd hand Polo GTI exhaust back section (55mm opposed to 50mm on the 1.2/1.4's), if unbolting the rear section proves to be beneficial.

Mines is 2.5 inch and is doing 340ish 

Friedrich Motorsport do off the shelf exhaust systems. Cat-back and turbo back, they do 3 versions of a 2.5inch downpipe (de-cat, sports cat and HJS sports cat). I've seen the 3 inch unitronic downpipe but wasn't sure if it would fit as it's for the jetta

5 minutes ago, Monkey_Dan said:

Friedrich Motorsport do off the shelf exhaust systems. Cat-back and turbo back, they do 3 versions of a 2.5inch downpipe (de-cat, sports cat and HJS sports cat). I've seen the 3 inch unitronic downpipe but wasn't sure if it would fit as it's for the jetta

Yeah it'd fit, but 3" is totally overkill, theyll cope with beyond 500bhp without breaking a sweat!

 

I'll have a look at Friedrichs offerings, what are the sports cats like for passing MOTs? A decat would be a guaranteed fail i guess.

38 minutes ago, FabiaGonzales said:

Yeah it'd fit, but 3" is totally overkill, theyll cope with beyond 500bhp without breaking a sweat!

 

I'll have a look at Friedrichs offerings, what are the sports cats like for passing MOTs? A decat would be a guaranteed fail i guess.

 

They are both 200 cell units so should be fine for mot. But they are expensive especially the the HJS one. The Unitronic may be overkill but it's cheaper. 

I've got the hidden tailpipe version of the Friedrich cat-back on order. Custom downpipe with sports cat may be the way to go

On 14/10/2020 at 00:29, Monkey_Dan said:

 

They are both 200 cell units so should be fine for mot. But they are expensive especially the the HJS one. The Unitronic may be overkill but it's cheaper. 

I've got the hidden tailpipe version of the Friedrich cat-back on order. Custom downpipe with sports cat may be the way to go

 

Assuming you can find the right size v band clamp for the turbo, it should be fairly simple to fabricate a custom downpipe for less than these off the shelf aftermarket units.  You would also need the tubing, cat and flex pipe, the tricky bit would probably be the o2 sensor fittings.

7 hours ago, TheFozzy said:

 

Assuming you can find the right size v band clamp for the turbo, it should be fairly simple to fabricate a custom downpipe for less than these off the shelf aftermarket units.  You would also need the tubing, cat and flex pipe, the tricky bit would probably be the o2 sensor fittings.

 

I'm thinking of cancelling my cat-back order and going full custom. I just like fitting stuff myself when I can and off the shelf bits let me do that.

Surely they could scavenge the fittings off the old exhaust. The sensor after the cat has already been mapped out anyway.

On 05/10/2020 at 10:09, Monkey_Dan said:

Update on 1.2tsi turbo swap to the 1.4 unit and remap - full update at the end of the day.
Just dropped my car off at Roadrageperformance.co.uk for them to work on today. 1st run result with no optimisation was 126bhp, mods are MST intake, forge BOV, APR coil packs, NGK platinum plugs and of course the turbo upgrade.

Are the coilpacks those red APR branded ones? Do you know which NGK part number those plugs are?

 

Unfortunately yesterday's Turbo Tuesday started out promising but ultimately was unsuccessful. We got the graph to smoothen out nicely on the dyno and it pulled well, 180bhp and 230ft/lbs (about 310nm) with a nice curve and no big drop offs.

 

When it came to road testing it behaves quite eratically, 1st gear spins if there's even the slightest whif of moisture on the road, 2nd gear spins in the same manner if it's damp too. Eventually found a clean road to test it on and found it really didnt know what to do with itself, there's such a fine line between it making not much boost and making all the boost where it cant react quick enough to control it properly, it fluctuates high/low, and we suspect this is due to the difference in sizing of the exhaust side of the turbo and its wastegate, there's not enough flow from the 1.2 engine to spool the turbo up to make decent boost without fully shutting the wastegate but doing that makes the turbo try to make over 1.7bar where the ecu says no.(Also don't wanna destroy the engine yet!)

 

The wastegate duty/boost maps will need extensively and delicately altering for it to behave properly, ADE said they can do it, but it's something that would require being developed over a couple weeks, with extensive road testing and a lot of cost involved too.

 

Imagine it like when you're trying to vacuum the tablecloth, there's a fine line of it not sucking anything up because its just that bit too far and you move it a tad closer and then its ripping the damn table over taking everything with it 😂

 

So, i'm talking with JBS (who said they kind of expected the wastegate behaviour might be an issue when trying to push higher boost on the 1.2), and they've told me they're in the process of building a hybrid turbo, which since i'm so far down that route is something i might have a look into, but i've also suggested that since the 1.4 swap has got quite a lot of interest that they should look into developing a map for it and offer that as a half way point between a stage 1 map and a hybrid turbo.