Big Update

 

So, my car went on holiday with JBS Auto Designs starting on monday, and i'm off to pick it back up again on friday..

 

The 1.4 turbo will generally make about 160-170bhp when done properly, basically it'll make the same torque as stage 1, about 230nm ish, but it'll hold that till redline where the 1.2 turbo would drop off. The casings and the likes just aren't designed for the 1.2tsi and it doesn't play well

It's like having a small nozzle on a vacuum vs a large one, the large one flows better but it's far harder to control without accidentally sucking up the tablecloth, the smaller one is much easier to control but obviously it doesn't flow as well.

You can try eek more out of it but that ends up making it surge, then it'll hit boost cut or stall from backpressure, and you end up with what we had before, a wavey graph that looked like it should make good power but wouldn't play ball without pulling it back to around 160bhp.

 

However, that's not what my car went on holiday for, nope, it's had the hybrid treatment, the in-development JBSL12 hybrid turbo, i'm the first to get it done, and it's rather exciting! With the standard exhaust, it's making 181bhp, and 280nm torque! It's also reaching that torque a good 500 rpm earlier than the 1.4 turbo and holding it far far longer.

 

The hybrid turbo is basically the 1.4 turbo core, packaged into a very heavily machined 1.2 turbo casing, the exhaust turbine is clipped slightly for more top-end amongst other little bits like ported exhaust manifold etc. The slimmer passageways keep exhaust gasses flowing faster and help the turbo spool up better despite it being clipped on the exhaust turbine.

 

The exhaust becomes a limiting factor past 5000 rpm where torque finally starts to drop off (as boost has to be lowered to prevent egt's getting too high from backpressure), with a sports cat or decat, it's likely to make over 200bhp, so i guess that's where my money's going next...

The other issue they've noted is that at 181bhp the fuel rail pressure just starts to drop a little, while not an issue at the moment, i'm looking at a sports-cat and it's possible that the HPFP may well become the next restricting factor, so that may become a part of their hybrid turbo package.

 

Past the 200bhp mark though you're looking at uprated rods as you'll need more than 1.6 bar boost and that's about the safe maximum for stock rods.

 

So here it is, the graph i've been waiting so long for;

That looks like a very good graph.

 

180HP from 1.2litre, is 150HP/litre.

 

The graph is showing over 170HP from 4500rpm to 6000rpm, and over 150HP from 4000rpm to 6500rpm.

 

Even a 245HP 2.0litre vRS petrol engine from the Octavia MK3 only remaps to just over 150HP/litre.

 

You are now on a point of rapidly diminishing returns.

 

I expect the top speed is now over 140mph.

 

It will be interesting to see if you can get 170HP/litre, ie. 204HP out of the 1.2 engine, or 160HP/litre, ie. 192HP.

 

Edited 10 February, 20215 yr by Carlston

1 minute ago, Carlston said:

That looks like a very good graph.

 

180HP from 1.2litre, is 150HP/litre.

 

The graph is showing over approximately 170HP from 4750rpm to 6250rpm.

 

Even a 245HP 2.0litre vRS petrol engine from the Octavia MK3 only remaps to just over 150HP/litre.

 

You are now on a point of rapidly diminishing returns.

 

I expect the top speed is now over 140mph.

 

It will be interesting to see if you can get 170HP/litre, ie. 204HP out of the 1.2 engine.

I'm going for a sports cat, so it'll probably top out just around 200bhp. That's about as much as the turbo can do. You could try building a bigger turbo for it but that'd really be on the diminishing returns side of things and you'd lose alot of low end torque.

Could you tell me the values for the wastegate (actuator)? Thank you

On 12/02/2021 at 08:54, Dumi3 said:

Could you tell me the values for the wastegate (actuator)? Thank you

 

Not sure what you mean? The mapping values for voltage vs duty%? You'd have to ask the likes of a tuner for that kinda stuff.

@FabiaGonzalesoo ok, thank you

On 10/02/2021 at 21:52, FabiaGonzales said:

I'm going for a sports cat, so it'll probably top out just around 200bhp. That's about as much as the turbo can do. You could try building a bigger turbo for it but that'd really be on the diminishing returns side of things and you'd lose alot of low end torque.

I believe its possible to fit an IS28 turbo, however it also entails having a custom exhaust manifold, intake, and custom downpipe

1 hour ago, TheFozzy said:

I believe its possible to fit an IS28 turbo, however it also entails having a custom exhaust manifold, intake, and custom downpipe

Yeah, but 200ftlbs is about as far as is safe for the stock rods too, so youd have to upgrade them too

1 minute ago, FabiaGonzales said:

Yeah, but 200ftlbs is about as far as is safe for the stock rods too, so youd have to upgrade them too

Yeah, at that point a polo gti 1.8t makes more sense

@FabiaGonzales

You picked your car up today didn't you? Any updates? How does it drive etc?

4 hours ago, Monkey_Dan said:

@FabiaGonzales

You picked your car up today didn't you? Any updates? How does it drive etc?

I picked it up yesterday in fact. Ludicrous is the word for it. Reached 140mph and was still climbing albeit slowly by that point, 2nd and 3rd are just silly fast.

 

Think the 1.4 turbo is fast? This effer just pulls, and pulls, right to and beyond redline.. it's like nothing i've driven before, when that lil turbo kicks in hold on tight!

 

Overtaking is easy as pi$$ now, BMW 118i was upset that i came up behind him quickly doing 60 in a 60, he was doing 45, and at the next straight bit of road he planted it, only to get left behind by a wee 1.2tsi fabia 😂😂

10 hours ago, FabiaGonzales said:

I picked it up yesterday in fact. Ludicrous is the word for it. Reached 140mph and was still climbing albeit slowly by that point, 2nd and 3rd are just silly fast.

 

Think the 1.4 turbo is fast? This effer just pulls, and pulls, right to and beyond redline.. it's like nothing i've driven before, when that lil turbo kicks in hold on tight!

 

Overtaking is easy as pi$$ now, BMW 118i was upset that i came up behind him quickly doing 60 in a 60, he was doing 45, and at the next straight bit of road he planted it, only to get left behind by a wee 1.2tsi fabia 😂😂

 

That's awesome, did they tweak it anymore since the graph you posted the other day?

 

With what they've done with yours we know there's no other boost limits and the MAP sensor is good for it.

 

I'm still going to see how mine behaves after my exhaust is done before I start planning trips to JBS. I'm hoping the exhaust will elongate my curve into the upper rev range and it was that stalling the turbo causing my niggle.

 

I'm guessing your bill was pretty sizable and for me it probably won't be worth it, especially if the turbo-back widens my powerband.

 

Did you say that atm your intake and exhaust are completely stock? 

30 minutes ago, Monkey_Dan said:

 

That's awesome, did they tweak it anymore since the graph you posted the other day?

 

With what they've done with yours we know there's no other boost limits and the MAP sensor is good for it.

 

I'm still going to see how mine behaves after my exhaust is done before I start planning trips to JBS. I'm hoping the exhaust will elongate my curve into the upper rev range and it was that stalling the turbo causing my niggle.

 

I'm guessing your bill was pretty sizable and for me it probably won't be worth it, especially if the turbo-back widens my powerband.

 

Did you say that atm your intake and exhaust are completely stock? 

Yes, my intake and exhaust are completely stock. There was no further tweaking after that point though

 

280nm/200ftlbs is as far as you want to go on stock rods, that's about 1.5 bar, the exhaust only became an issue beyone 5k, where the 1.4 turbo would be struggling anyway, do i dont think the exhaust will give you much more, except possibly let the turbo surge too high.

 

I'd probably say to leave it at somewhere like jbs for a couple days so they can properly develop a map for it.

I'm running 1.4 bar, my turbo doesn't go over that. It holds that boost until the 4500 ish mark and then the fluctuation is it dipping and coming back up to 1.4. 

 

It's stops being noticeable as the revs pass 5500 as boost starts to drop naturally anyway due to the engine speed.

1 minute ago, Monkey_Dan said:

I'm running 1.4 bar, my turbo doesn't go over that. It holds that boost until the 4500 ish mark and then the fluctuation is it dipping and coming back up to 1.4. 

 

It's stops being noticeable as the revs pass 5500 as boost starts to drop naturally anyway due to the engine speed.

From 5000+ the boost on mine drops slowly from 1.5 to around 1.2 ish, that's the exhaust restriction.

 

A new issue comes when you put a sports cat or decat on it, and that's the high pressure fuel pump, which is starting to run out a little already at 180bhp, might be able to eek a little more out of it but more than 190 you will need a hpfp upgrade, which jbs are working on.

 

Speaking to jbs they believe the 1.4 turbo should only really be able to safely make 160-170bhp when tuned in properly.

 

Also, when i test drove mine at "180bhp" with the 1.4 turbo, it was just nothing like the 180bhp of the hybrid, the hybrid is so solid with power delivery, not even the slightest fluctuation from 1900 till 6000 rpm, yep, it has full torque from that low down, it goes like a deisel haha

 

 

@FabiaGonzalesboost drops at high rpm because of the rate the engine is naturally drawing in air and the boost the turbo can give on top of that diminishes. It's the turbo running out of puff and ideally you'd want that to happen at the top of your rev range so it can also be effective at lower rpm.

 

You get the same restriction but the result isn't the same, the wind is taken out of the sails with my 1.2 trying to keep the bigger turbo boosting whereas the 1.2 with the hybrid doesn't get that. I'm still surprised that I reach peak bhp sooner and torque comes in similar before mine drops off.

 

I'm looking forward to my exhaust and getting on a rr again. Not looking for higher numbers but filling out the back end of the curve 

Yours hit 336nm, that's well beyond what's considered safe for the stock rods (280nm ish), that's why yours reaches peak power earlier than the hybrid.

 

You can't be running only 1.4 bar with that torque, that's peaking to more like 1.7bar like my 1.4 turbo was when it hit 190+ in testing.

 

The hybrid reaches that 280nm peak torque much earlier than the graph suggests, from about 1900rpm, it holds 280nm through till 5000rpm where the exhaust cant get rid of the gasses fast enough and backpressure becomes a problem. The hybrid turbo is capable of considerably more power than what mine made. The dyno spins up fast enough that the turbo hasn't had time to spool up yet.

 

The exhaust is a restriction beyond 180bhp, you can make that 180bhp earlier by pushing more at low rpms like yours, or less peak but continuing to high rpms like mine. But you'll struggle to make more than 180bhp due to the exhaust. Airflow basically = power.

 

A sports cat or decat will basically remove the exhaust restriction but now a new restriction comes into play, how much fuel you can get into the engine, the high pressure fuel pump can only flow enough for about 190bhp tops before rail pressure drops too far.

 

I'd recommend getting your tuner to bring the torque back down to a safer level of around 280nm (206ftlbs), you'll most likely not hit that same peak hp but your engine will be much happier for it.

 

The design of the 1.4 turbos housings make it difficult to maintain a consistent boost on the 1.2 engine, it's designed around how much exhaust flow the 1.4 engine makes and what powerband they wanted the 1.4 engine to have, the 1.2 makes less exhaust gasses from its smaller displacement so it needs more engine rpms before the turbo can start to make any considerable boost. It's also limited in top end because the turbine is designed around low down responsiveness and not top end flow. The fluctuation you get is the turbo being the restriction rather than the exhaust, you get too much backpressure and the ecu pulls timing to prevent knock, power drops off and the restriction goes then it tries again..

 

The casings of the hybrid are modified 1.2 casings machined smooth for better flow, spool, and to fit the core which itself is a modified 1.4 turbo core, with the exhaust turbine opened up for more top end and a couple other undisclosed modifications.

 

The result is a turbo which comes in between the 1.2 and 1.4 turbo, lag is kind of in between but closer to the 1.4 turbo, but top end is hugely improved, way more than was expected, JBS were very surprised themselves by how wide the power band is. The unit as a whole is also very predictable in boost characteristics with zero boost fluctuation at all. They estimated it to be capable of 190-200bhp but its likely it can make 220-230 if you had the money

On 14/02/2021 at 13:20, FabiaGonzales said:

Yes, my intake and exhaust are completely stock. There was no further tweaking after that point though

 

280nm/200ftlbs is as far as you want to go on stock rods, that's about 1.5 bar, the exhaust only became an issue beyone 5k, where the 1.4 turbo would be struggling anyway, do i dont think the exhaust will give you much more, except possibly let the turbo surge too high.

 

I'd probably say to leave it at somewhere like jbs for a couple days so they can properly develop a map for it.

do forged pistons and con rods for the ea211 1.2tsi even exist?

I know con rods exist, whilst they say for the 1.4 TSI EA111/EA211, the con rods in the 1.2 should be the exact same as both the 1.2 and 1.4 have the same 75.6 mm stroke:
https://www.spikespeed.com/product/1-4l-tsi-ea111-ea211-h-beam-steel-con-rods-zrp/

 

There are pistons for the EA111 1.2 and 1.4, but also the EA211 1.4 as all three of those engines have a 76.5mm bore:
https://www.spikespeed.com/product/1-2l-1-4l-tfsi-ea111-high-performance-pistons-kit-wiseco/

 

The EA211 1.2TSI has a 71mm bore and im yet to see any pistons for this.  If anything it should be possible to bore out the 1.2tsi to 76.5mm as they use the same engine block, but at that point, it makes more sense to buy a 1.4tsi or a 1.8 tsi to swap in considering how much you'd be spending.

Edited 15 February, 20215 yr by TheFozzy

edit to previous post

Edited 15 February, 20215 yr by TheFozzy

16 minutes ago, TheFozzy said:

I know con rods exist, whilst they say for the 1.4 TSI EA111/EA211, the con rods in the 1.2 should be the exact same as both the 1.2 and 1.4 have the same 75.6 mm stroke:
https://www.spikespeed.com/product/1-4l-tsi-ea111-ea211-h-beam-steel-con-rods-zrp/

 

There are pistons for the EA111 1.2 and 1.4, but also the EA211 1.4 as all three of those engines have a 76.5mm bore:
https://www.spikespeed.com/product/1-2l-1-4l-tfsi-ea111-high-performance-pistons-kit-wiseco/

 

The EA211 1.2TSI has a 71mm bore and im yet to see any pistons for this.  If anything it should be possible to bore out the 1.2tsi to 76.5mm as they use the same engine block, but at that point, it makes more sense to buy a 1.4tsi or a 1.8 tsi to swap in considering how much you'd be spending.

there's got to be a company that makes custom rods and pistons that will be able to do the job..

1 minute ago, Eladshaul said:

there's got to be a company that makes custom rods and pistons that will be able to do the job..

Most likely, however the cost of having custom rods and pistons designed and cnc machined, £2000 for a polo gti engine from ebay starts to look pretty cheap lol

8 minutes ago, TheFozzy said:

Most likely, however the cost of having custom rods and pistons designed and cnc machined, £2000 for a polo gti engine from ebay starts to look pretty cheap lol

lol true.. so if only with the forged con rods an exhaust system and a 240hp capable turbo will the engine might be able to live happily?

1 hour ago, Eladshaul said:

lol true.. so if only with the forged con rods an exhaust system and a 240hp capable turbo will the engine might be able to live happily?

The pistons should be fine as is, the rods definitely need upgrading.

 

The last thing being youll need an upgrade to the hpfp for more than about 190bhp

28 minutes ago, FabiaGonzales said:

The pistons should be fine as is, the rods definitely need upgrading.

 

The last thing being youll need an upgrade to the hpfp for more than about 190bhp

Are you planning to go for the upgrade hpfp and rods?