I don't really understand what's going on then. What boost is a standard 1.2 and what do they push it to on a stage 1 remap? They don't seem to have issues.

Also I had no issues with an unmapped turbo swap car and got 124bhp peak.

I don't get why its when we go map it there's a problem.

How come you didn't get the throttle closing issue again?

I don't get how your seemingly good curve translated to un-driveable on the road.

Have you got any graphs?

 

2 hours ago, FabiaGonzales said:

Are the coilpacks those red APR branded ones? Do you know which NGK part number those plugs are?

 

Unfortunately yesterday's Turbo Tuesday started out promising but ultimately was unsuccessful. We got the graph to smoothen out nicely on the dyno and it pulled well, 180bhp and 230ft/lbs (about 310nm) with a nice curve and no big drop offs.

 

When it came to road testing it behaves quite eratically, 1st gear spins if there's even the slightest whif of moisture on the road, 2nd gear spins in the same manner if it's damp too. Eventually found a clean road to test it on and found it really didnt know what to do with itself, there's such a fine line between it making not much boost and making all the boost where it cant react quick enough to control it properly, it fluctuates high/low, and we suspect this is due to the difference in sizing of the exhaust side of the turbo and its wastegate, there's not enough flow from the 1.2 engine to spool the turbo up to make decent boost without fully shutting the wastegate but doing that makes the turbo try to make over 1.7bar where the ecu says no.(Also don't wanna destroy the engine yet!)

 

The wastegate duty/boost maps will need extensively and delicately altering for it to behave properly, ADE said they can do it, but it's something that would require being developed over a couple weeks, with extensive road testing and a lot of cost involved too.

 

Imagine it like when you're trying to vacuum the tablecloth, there's a fine line of it not sucking anything up because its just that bit too far and you move it a tad closer and then its ripping the damn table over taking everything with it 😂

 

So, i'm talking with JBS (who said they kind of expected the wastegate behaviour might be an issue when trying to push higher boost on the 1.2), and they've told me they're in the process of building a hybrid turbo, which since i'm so far down that route is something i might have a look into, but i've also suggested that since the 1.4 swap has got quite a lot of interest that they should look into developing a map for it and offer that as a half way point between a stage 1 map and a hybrid turbo.

Not sure if im talking out my A*** but my cupra r 225 when I had that mapped with its hybrid turbo the tuner had to map the TCS as it gets confused easily. - Also if there is lots of low end torque from the turbo suddenly coming in then you will expect slip since its coming in all at once, are you running decent tyres

I messaged JBS too, they said the fluctuating boost im getting is probably due to the actuator closely governing the boost. Seems the turbo wants to just go and go. I'm still none the wiser whether my boost fluctuation is the throttle opening and closing or the actuator clumsily controlling the boost.

 

My tuner said it held boost steady on the RR and didn't notice it on his test drive (he wouldn't have as you need a good stretch on open road where you can be flat out).

 

Maybe similar to yours looking all good but on the road not so.

 

I've still got the standard exhaust, I'd like to rule that out as a issue and I still think a hybrid turbo is I overkill.

7 minutes ago, Monkey_Dan said:

I messaged JBS too, they said the fluctuating boost im getting is probably due to the actuator closely governing the boost. Seems the turbo wants to just go and go. I'm still none the wiser whether my boost fluctuation is the throttle opening and closing or the actuator clumsily controlling the boost.

 

My tuner said it held boost steady on the RR and didn't notice it on his test drive (he wouldn't have as you need a good stretch on open road where you can be flat out).

 

Maybe similar to yours looking all good but on the road not so.

 

I've still got the standard exhaust, I'd like to rule that out as a issue and I still think a hybrid turbo is I overkill.

The fluctuation is indeed the actuator clumbsily trying to control the boost, the exhaust is ruled out as we disconnected that, no real change from that except like +3-4ft/lb across the whole torque curve.

 

Speaking with JBS it seems it's possible that it's getting too close to the MAP sensor limit and boost cut is kicking in (or there's some kind of boost limit setting somewhere we didn't know about that needs raising) but i'd hae thought it woul start to throw codes and go to limp mode, but no it happily went to 120mph and was still accelerating uphill, it's a beast when it works.

 

The hybrid turbo i would guess may manage like 190-200 as theyre basing it from a 1.2 turbo casing with internals based from the 1.4 but a larger intake compressor and ported intake sides. I'll find ways of getting it done cheaper 😂 probably get them to hybrid my old 1.2 turbo first then fit it myself and later have it mapped in haha

 

on the dyno it did produce a nice smooth curve with 180bhp, the 190bhp one drops off after 5k because boost cut (hes looked through all the logs and maps since the first time), there's no throttle closing as such, t's just that's what it feels like, as if someones pressing and releasing the pedal repeatedly.

I don't get why it can't hold steady boost when 1.2 mapped can, a 1.4 swap can. We're not asking much more of it. 

 

If the actuator is so ham-fisted I don't see a hybrid making that any better. The only thing is what JBS may learn in development of it and a map alongside it.

 

15 minutes ago, Monkey_Dan said:

I don't get why it can't hold steady boost when 1.2 mapped can, a 1.4 swap can. We're not asking much more of it. 

 

If the actuator is so ham-fisted I don't see a hybrid making that any better. The only thing is what JBS may learn in development of it and a map alongside it.

 

The exact same actuator is used on both the 1.2 and 1.4 turbos but the 1.4 turbo casing is a little larger, so the same duty % doesn't match up when it comes to the actual wastegate flap angle, it's something that'd need to be recalibrated, the mapping is telling it to make 1.4bar at e.g 85% duty but that's not actually 85% its quite a bit more and it's making the turbo overboost then hit boost cut.

 

The hybrid being based on 1.2 casings will have same as standard wastegate positioning and as such the duty% mapping will all match too, so it should hold the correct boost fine.

 

Even so, 1.45bar is quite close to the limit of the map sensor, if it goes 1.5 bar it will cut boost as it cant measure beyond that, so even a momentary spike will make it cut, it's all about really fine tuning and adjusting wastegate maps to make everything play properly together.

 

I have suggested just working out how to map around the 1.4 turbo, as that's cheaper, but it seems like they want to make something of their own they can release and make more money off but oh well

6 minutes ago, FabiaGonzales said:

The exact same actuator is used on both the 1.2 and 1.4 turbos but the 1.4 turbo casing is a little larger, so the same duty % doesn't match up when it comes to the actual wastegate flap angle, it's something that'd need to be recalibrated, the mapping is telling it to make 1.4bar at e.g 85% duty but that's not actually 85% its quite a bit more and it's making the turbo overboost then hit boost cut.

 

The hybrid being based on 1.2 casings will have same as standard wastegate positioning and as such the duty% mapping will all match too, so it should hold the correct boost fine.

 

Even so, 1.45bar is quite close to the limit of the map sensor, if it goes 1.5 bar it will cut boost as it cant measure beyond that, so even a momentary spike will make it cut, it's all about really fine tuning and adjusting wastegate maps to make everything play properly together.

 

I have suggested just working out how to map around the 1.4 turbo, as that's cheaper, but it seems like they want to make something of their own they can release and make more money off but oh well

 

I guess that makes sense, like the actuator needs mapping manually because the adjustments the ecu is trying to make are based on different hardware, not very different but enough to make it clumsy. Like automacally going to pick up your pint but your forearm is half an inch longer than you think it is. Picking it up, drinking and putting it down is not going to be smooth at all

If its the wastegate actuator which is causing issues, rather than mapping it, why not map it out and use a spring and turbo pressure based wastegate actuator such as this one:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VW-Touran-Seat-Skoda-K03-099-142-150-1-4TSI-TwinCharged-Turbo-Wastegate-Actuator/192791578704?hash=item2ce3460850:g:wTwAAOSw651cPcE8

 

 

Theoretically this would solve the issue of the slow response from the ecu controlled actuator.  @FabiaGonzales have you tried asking ADE about this as a possible option instead of having the standard actuator remapped?

@TheFozzy that is something worthy of further investigation. I was pondering about the possibility of an aftermarket boost controller. My previous modded cars have been N/A so most of this turbo stuff is new to me.

 

That one you've put the link in for is the wrong application though. Finding one that fits might be a problem, I don't know

Edited 22 October, 20205 yr by Monkey_Dan

This one maybe https://www.ebay.com/itm/264104854781

 

That's my day sorted then, Reading all about these.

Hello, i have a polo 6c 2014 with the 1.2 ea211 engine in it. I made some mods like 1.4 turbo ( mhi 49180-01240), downpipe on 63mm and full exhaust on 63mm + K&n ai intake. the car makes 154hp and 287 nm (i think i messed up with the turbo) but i have some problems like sometimes in 3 gear when i floor it, at around 3000 3200rpm the dp vibrates hard and the car doesnt pull is like something is draging it from behind and same in 4th, but if a floor it from the first gear and go with every gear at 5000+ rpm the car pulls very good. my tuner said that the peak boost is 1.5bar and then is constant at 1.2 or 1.3 i think. We tried to calibrate the wastegate its a little better now but still not very happy with it. Another problem is in 2nd gear at around 5000rpm its feels like the car is a little chooked for like 500rpm and in the 3rd gear at around 5000rpm its like its pulling then not then again pulling for around 500rpm i think. the green dyno is with intake the red one without. Thank you!

Hi Dumi3, your figures look down on power compared to what I'd expect of a car with the larger 1.4 turbo. It's possible you've put on the turbo from the lower output 1.4 which is the same as the standard one. I'm not 100% familiar with the polo, I assume because you're posting here that yours is the model most similar to the mk3 fabia, turbo behind the engine and turbo has an electric actuator 

Edited 27 October, 20205 yr by Monkey_Dan

@Monkey_Dan indeed its the ea211 the turbo is in the back and its an electric actuator its the same engine like fabia and on polo forums i didnt found this infos. yes i think i bought the wrong turbo, but thats not the problem now:)) i m trying to understand why it does those things in 3rd an 4th gear at around 3000rpm and in 2nd and 3rd at around 5000rpm. thank you for your reply.

Just now, Dumi3 said:

@Monkey_Dan indeed its the ea211 the turbo is in the back and its an electric actuator its the same engine like fabia and on polo forums i didnt found this infos. yes i think i bought the wrong turbo, but thats not the problem now:)) i m trying to understand why it does those things in 3rd an 4th gear at around 3000rpm and in 2nd and 3rd at around 5000rpm. thank you for your reply.

 

Is it possible to put your old turbo back on, when did you start getting the problems?

At the top of this post is a list of turbos, is it possible you've got the larger one that has that extra sensor and that's causing issues.

 

I'm no expert at reading these graphs but I can't see anywhere on it that indicates a problem you might have on the road. What gear was used for the dyno run?

 

There are so many part numbers used for the turbos its really difficult to get the right one. Have you got pictures of the one you fitted?

 

Are you getting and lights come on or fault codes?

@Monkey_Dan no errors, i think the 3rd gear was used. i think the code for the turbo is 04E 145 704 R (MHI 49180-01240) but its a reman one. 

@Monkey_Dan so according to the list from the fisrt page i have a smaller 1.4 turbo. thats why i said i think i messed up with the turbo, i will try and change it or make my orginal 1.2 a hybrid one, but still those problems are strange. Like, the dyno looks very good, smooth but still it does those things. Sorry for my bad english, not my native language.

13 minutes ago, Dumi3 said:

@Monkey_Dan so according to the list from the fisrt page i have a smaller 1.4 turbo. thats why i said i think i messed up with the turbo, i will try and change it or make my orginal 1.2 a hybrid one, but still those problems are strange. Like, the dyno looks very good, smooth but still it does those things. Sorry for my bad english, not my native language.

 

So your dyno figures are actually very good for the standard turbo with a remap, maybe its just being pushed too far. Does your downpipe have a decat?

 

At what point did the problems start?

 

If its an option, I'd swap the turbos back, just to rule that out.

 

Don't worry about the English, its better than a lot of English people and It's much better than what my attempt at your native language would be

Edited 27 October, 20205 yr by Monkey_Dan

@Monkey_Dan THank you for the language thing! well its a downpipe, without the cat so its a straight pipe system( with 2 resonators one in the middle and one at the back but still too loud..). with the older turbo i had a stage 1 with 123hp and 211 or 221nm had no problem. So the problem started after i changed the turbo, put the downpipe and the air intake and made a custom map for this build. 

18 minutes ago, Dumi3 said:

@Monkey_Dan so according to the list from the fisrt page i have a smaller 1.4 turbo. thats why i said i think i messed up with the turbo, i will try and change it or make my orginal 1.2 a hybrid one, but still those problems are strange. Like, the dyno looks very good, smooth but still it does those things. Sorry for my bad english, not my native language.

1.5bar is the limit of the map sensor and the ecu and is where boost cut kicks in (the ecu may close throttle to do this depending on how its set), youll have to get them to pull the max boost back to around 1.4-1.45bar. You're about at the limit of the smaller turbo at that point though.

 

I'm looking at getting an uprated map sensor to make it easier for the ecu to deal with the peak boost, and possibly keep holding it longer. The larger turbo comes in much slower and as such probably should be dyno'd in 4th or even 5th gear to let the turbo have chance to spool up at low rpms.

 

That being said in road testing from 30-60mph at a lower boost map it was still a good 2 seconds quicker than stock despite hitting boost cut 2-3 times (having trouble getting wastegate duty to behave).

@FabiaGonzalesso its possible if a drop it at 1.4-1.45batr to get rid of those problems?  my dyno graph looks good no? and i bought a smaller turbo no?

2 minutes ago, Dumi3 said:

@FabiaGonzalesso its possible if a drop it at 1.4-1.45batr to get rid of those problems?  my dyno graph looks good no? and i bought a smaller turbo no?

It is the smaller turbo yes, and yes if you brought it back down it shouldn't hit the limit any more, you'll probably see around 260nm torque.

 

The graph looks good otherwise though. About whatd be expected from a standard turbo with decat and intake.

@FabiaGonzales and do you know how much power it will make with 1.45bar? and also if i make my turbo hybrid could i reach a bigger power? beacuse i think the actuator doesnt need to be changed on my orginal turbo no?

4 minutes ago, Dumi3 said:

@FabiaGonzales and do you know how much power it will make with 1.45bar? and also if i make my turbo hybrid could i reach a bigger power? beacuse i think the actuator doesnt need to be changed on my orginal turbo no?

A hybrid turbo depends on what components they build it with. JBS are doing one which should result in around 190-200bhp, and also includes an uprated MAP sensor as it seems that is the main limitation in these engines as they hit boost cut so easily with uprated turbos.

@FabiaGonzales yeah but there a little bit expensive:)). i will try to buy a bigger 1.4 turbo maybe a used one and rebuild it. Could you estimate a power on my current build but with a 1.45 bar instead of 1.5 bar? thank you so much.

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