Turbo Swap Choices for EA211 1.2 TSI

[TheFozzy]

On 15/12/2021 at 20:22, DM_C said:

Hi all guys I am new to the group, I have a Skoda Fabia 1.2 tsi 2016 1 month ago I bought downpipe and turbo taken from a 1.4 TSI 125 hp ... unfortunately I have only now read the list of turbos ... So if I mount this turbine does not change anything from the original?
I leave turbine code: 04E 145 713 N
Thank you

 

 

Yeah, the turbos used on the 1.4 125hp engines such as the CXS and CZC engines are the same as the 1.2 turbo with a larger exhaust intake for the additional displacement.  The bigger turbo you need is typically found on the more powerful 140hp and 150hp CZD engines.

 

I also recommend purchasing a new or refurbished turbo rather than bolting a used turbo on your car.  The last thing you want is that turbo failing and destroying your engine.  (also take it to a good quality tuner, my tuner managed to blow up a refurb turbo with new internals)

[Andre_db87]

Hey Guys,

 

Hope this thread is still alive a bit 😛

I am new to the Skoda Fabia game (and therefore to this forum) and found out recently you can get a lot more out of the engine.

After speaking with the Tuning expert here, he advised me to get the 1.4 bigger turbo and get an intake and a downpipe.

With this setup he told me I could run around 180hp which is "enough"....also less expensive then a hybrid....

So I got the turbo checked off the list (will be the 04E 145 721 B, can get a low mileage one for 400euros), downpipes I have some options..

But the intake might be more tricky, I has my eye on the RTMG one but it is so hard to find information about the fitment.

Does anyone have some experience with this and could maybe share some pictures? I am wondering how the carbon airbag mounts to the air inlet of the car.

 

Thank you  

[omgits1200]

29 minutes ago, Andre_db87 said:

Hey Guys,

 

Hope this thread is still alive a bit 😛

I am new to the Skoda Fabia game (and therefore to this forum) and found out recently you can get a lot more out of the engine.

After speaking with the Tuning expert here, he advised me to get the 1.4 bigger turbo and get an intake and a downpipe.

With this setup he told me I could run around 180hp which is "enough"....also less expensive then a hybrid....

So I got the turbo checked off the list (will be the 04E 145 721 B, can get a low mileage one for 400euros), downpipes I have some options..

But the intake might be more tricky, I has my eye on the RTMG one but it is so hard to find information about the fitment.

Does anyone have some experience with this and could maybe share some pictures? I am wondering how the carbon airbag mounts to the air inlet of the car.

 

Thank you  

I just sold the turbo. 
It's hard to remap. Also, you will lose torque at LOW RPM, making your daily driving not so comfortable. 
And the main problem is clutch\gearbox. 1.2 ea211 has an mq200 gearbox that works on its limits. I have 2 friends who remapped their 1.2 ea211 with stock turbo, and both of them had a problem with clutch spinning.

[Andre_db87]

Thank you for your answer, I trust the company who does the retune.

He has experience doing this more often to 1.2TSI engines and even offers a package with turbo and tuning, so I am confident he knows what he is doing.... (I hope  )

[FabiaGonzales]

1 minute ago, omgits1200 said:

I just sold the turbo. 
It's hard to remap. Also, you will lose torque at LOW RPM, making your daily driving not so comfortable. 
And the main problem is clutch\gearbox. 1.2 ea211 has an mq200 gearbox that works on its limits. I have 2 friends who remapped their 1.2 ea211 with stock turbo, and both of them had a problem with clutch spinning.

Stock mq200 clutch can take around 280-300nm torque, or about 210ftlbs ish, stage 1 shouldn't be pushing it far past 240-250nm, or about 185ftlbs ish.

 

The low end torque you lose is below 2000rpm, however i found it actually makes it easier to use less fuel since the turbo is less agressive at low rpms.

 

There is also the "small" 1.4 turbo (from the 122/125bhp variants) which will make about 160-165bhp, and a little less peak torque, but it is more responsive than the bigger 1.4 turbo.

[Monkey_Dan]

2 hours ago, Andre_db87 said:

Hey Guys,

 

Hope this thread is still alive a bit 😛

I am new to the Skoda Fabia game (and therefore to this forum) and found out recently you can get a lot more out of the engine.

After speaking with the Tuning expert here, he advised me to get the 1.4 bigger turbo and get an intake and a downpipe.

With this setup he told me I could run around 180hp which is "enough"....also less expensive then a hybrid....

So I got the turbo checked off the list (will be the 04E 145 721 B, can get a low mileage one for 400euros), downpipes I have some options..

But the intake might be more tricky, I has my eye on the RTMG one but it is so hard to find information about the fitment.

Does anyone have some experience with this and could maybe share some pictures? I am wondering how the carbon airbag mounts to the air inlet of the car.

 

Thank you  

 

I've got the RTMG intake, you need to relocate the battery slightly so it fits. I used a Dremel to open out the stock vent on the inside of the grill and used an exhaust hanger to hold the carbon part into it. For the money and effort there are other options just as good

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/ChiO9AWrkF4/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CQdmaPCHb04/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

 

 

 

 

[Andre_db87]

Thank you guys for the reply (and also the info on this topic) it helped me a lot.

I am going with the bigger turbo form the 1.4, I also like to keep it less aggressive in the low rpm (hopes it helps with the fuel milage. Plus who doesn't like the kick in the ass when the turbo hits 😛 

I might go with the Forge intake as well, not a big fan of the RTMG one if it is not straight bolt on. (Also cheaper anyway haha).

Going to be a while to gather all the parts and fitting and tuning, will be a longer term project probably. (depending on how soon I can get the funds to do everything all at once).

When the tuning is done then a KW set is on the list and if I really would go all out I might convert to a 6speed MT (have the 5 MT now 😞 )

[m1kemex]

On 21/08/2021 at 19:33, FabiaGonzales said:

The Rapid is MQB based, like the Golf 7/7.5 that's been around as long if not longer. The mk5 polo and mk3 fabia are PQ26. Mk6 polo (AW) and Fabia MK4 are fully MQB.

 

It can probably be modified to fit with the standard air inlet thing, but that's fairly closed off and restrictive, so that'd need modification (or something custom making like im doing 😉) for it to be worthwhile or you'd be better off having the airbox just pull air in from the bay, in which case you're spending a lot of money and only using half the kit and not even using the half you are using as it was intended anyway.

 

I think you're wrong here. The Rapid uses a lot of MQB parts, but the platform itself is PQ26+ I think. There are obvious differences, like wheel specifications (I've got a set of alloy wheels from an Ibiza MK5 and they don't clear the brake calipers without a spacer). The Rapid I have (a rebranded SEAT Toledo) uses exactly the same wheels as the Golf IV. I mean, literally (I've got a set of 15" Avus wheels on mine). Brakes are also the same (288mm ventilated front, 232mm solid back).

 

Now that my car is about to hit 6 years old, and out of warranty, but in good shape (I've only put 50,000 Km on it yet) I've been thinking about the possibility of upgrading it. I was thinking about buying a nicer new car and keep this as beater, but the market is so depressing right now. There are literally no fun cars anymore and by fun I mean small, high powered and manual transmission (I can buy the WRX here but 1) It's not small and 2) it's a lot of money and I'm sure my another half would go ballistic...). They don't sell the Fiesta ST here, which is my idea of a nice car.

 

I just read the whole damn thread and I wonder why nobody has brought up the topic of the transmission torque limit? The 1.2 TSI is always paired with the MQ200 (if manual), which is rated to 200 Nm (I know the DSG version is rated to 250 Nm). How safe is it to run 250+ Nm on an MQ200?

 

Given that I can't simply buy what I'm looking for, and assuming money is not an issue, how likely do you think it is to swap both the transmission and engine with a stock 150 HP 1.4 TSI and MQ250? They did sell this model with the 125HP version of the 1.4 TSI and the DQ200 DSG transmission, so at least engine mounts and the like can be sourced easily. I'm not really looking for über power, just a reliable car that has a decent amount of power for the size. Damn Skoda for never releasing this combination...

 

And damn the whole industry for not making more fun, manual transmission liftbacks.

 

P. S. I'm exaggerating. They do make the manual Integra, but in their ****ty wisdom, it's not going to be offered here either.

[Monkey_Dan]

26 minutes ago, m1kemex said:

 

I think you're wrong here. The Rapid uses a lot of MQB parts, but the platform itself is PQ26+ I think. There are obvious differences, like wheel specifications (I've got a set of alloy wheels from an Ibiza MK5 and they don't clear the brake calipers without a spacer). The Rapid I have (a rebranded SEAT Toledo) uses exactly the same wheels as the Golf IV. I mean, literally (I've got a set of 15" Avus wheels on mine). Brakes are also the same (288mm ventilated front, 232mm solid back).

 

Now that my car is about to hit 6 years old, and out of warranty, but in good shape (I've only put 50,000 Km on it yet) I've been thinking about the possibility of upgrading it. I was thinking about buying a nicer new car and keep this as beater, but the market is so depressing right now. There are literally no fun cars anymore and by fun I mean small, high powered and manual transmission (I can buy the WRX here but 1) It's not small and 2) it's a lot of money and I'm sure my another half would go ballistic...). They don't sell the Fiesta ST here, which is my idea of a nice car.

 

I just read the whole damn thread and I wonder why nobody has brought up the topic of the transmission torque limit? The 1.2 TSI is always paired with the MQ200 (if manual), which is rated to 200 Nm (I know the DSG version is rated to 250 Nm). How safe is it to run 250+ Nm on an MQ200?

 

Given that I can't simply buy what I'm looking for, and assuming money is not an issue, how likely do you think it is to swap both the transmission and engine with a stock 150 HP 1.4 TSI and MQ250? They did sell this model with the 125HP version of the 1.4 TSI and the DQ200 DSG transmission, so at least engine mounts and the like can be sourced easily. I'm not really looking for über power, just a reliable car that has a decent amount of power for the size. Damn Skoda for never releasing this combination...

 

And damn the whole industry for not making more fun, manual transmission liftbacks.

 

P. S. I'm exaggerating. They do make the manual Integra, but in their ****ty wisdom, it's not going to be offered here either.

These torque limits are not accurate, they are mostly based on brackets of torque that the manufacturer will use each gearbox for. I've heard the rods are only good for 300Nm and my DQ200 only good for 250Nm but I've been running over 300Nm for two years and done 6 track days.

 

A 1.4 swap has been done and due to the similarities it's on the easier end of the spectrum of engine swaps, same with the gearbox upgrade. You need to weigh up the cost to value for you.

 

I hope to do the 1.4 swap in the next couple of years. When my dad retires I hope to be able to use his unit as at the moment I've got nowhere to do it

[m1kemex]

On 09/02/2023 at 02:08, Monkey_Dan said:

These torque limits are not accurate, they are mostly based on brackets of torque that the manufacturer will use each gearbox for. I've heard the rods are only good for 300Nm and my DQ200 only good for 250Nm but I've been running over 300Nm for two years and done 6 track days.

 

A 1.4 swap has been done and due to the similarities it's on the easier end of the spectrum of engine swaps, same with the gearbox upgrade. You need to weigh up the cost to value for you.

 

I hope to do the 1.4 swap in the next couple of years. When my dad retires I hope to be able to use his unit as at the moment I've got nowhere to do it

 

Let's do some common sense analysis:

 

Most people don't care about what's under the hood of their car, specially when it comes to transmissions. So why do they put an MQ200 transmission on the 125HP version of the 1.4 TSI and the MQ250 on the 150HP version, the later being more expensive? There must be a technical reason for it. I doubt people at VAG are stupid and they don't know that they could save money by installing the MQ200 across the entire range.

 

One possibility I see is that MQ200 is destined for small cars while the MQ250 for medium cars, so the axles are different (wheel bolt pattern on small cars is 5x100 and 5x112 for medium and beyond). Maybe there is only one version of each, so you have to use the MQ200 if you want the 5x100 bolt pattern, and MQ250 if you want 5x112. However, this is obviously not true, having some cars like the Golf, with both MQ200 transmissions and 5x112 axles.

 

The other possibility I see is the way the safety margin is designed. The rating of a transmission is not so much for continuous usage, but for catastrophic conditions. Like you push the clutch, engage first gear, forget you're pressing the clutch and release it suddenly. If you have an MQ200 transmission, and an engine with up to 200 Nm, such as the stock 1.2 TSI, it will just stall, and nothing would break. Same for the MQ250: up to 250 Nm, like with the 150 HP 1.4 TSI, a sudden clutch slam will result in nothing breaking and only stalling.

 

But maybe -just maybe- if you install an MQ200 (rated for 200 Nm) with a 150 HP 1.4 TSI (rated for 250 Nm), if you accidentally slam the clutch, the engine will not stall, and something in the transmission is going to break.

[Ootohere]

If you are looking at gearboxes and BHP / Nm.

Look at the 2015 Polo GTI 1.8 TSI that came after the 2010-2014 Polo GTI 1.4 TSI Twincharger.

 

The Manual has the 1.8 TSI & 192 ps & 320 Nm,

and the DSG car was still 192ps but limited to 250 Nm (supposedly) .  Supposedly heavier, but just as fast.

 

The Twinchargers battery was in the boot as well. 

 

 

 

 

Edited 12 February, 2023 by toot

[fabdavrav]

MQ200 & MQ250 are both fitted to the bigger MK3 Octavia & MK7 Golf.....

 

The torque rating designation number is a rough "safe" limit with the car fully loaded & driving up a steep slope....basically worst case scenario that VAG reckon it can cope with.

[Ootohere]

When they sell you a car that shows the max bhp/ps, Nm that is really the Minimum it should be in near perfect conditions.  Near sea level, no extremes of temperature and running 95 octane petrol .   Also the minimum in less than ideal temps / altitudes.  So in the UK on Super Unleaded 97 or 99 Ron min you might well expect better than published with a Skoda. Not better than they say a VW or Audi might get even if a heavier vehicle. 

[fabdavrav]

1 hour ago, toot said:

When they sell you a car that shows the max bhp/ps, Nm that is really the Minimum it should be in near perfect conditions.  Near sea level, no extremes of temperature and running 95 octane petrol .   Also the minimum in less than ideal temps / altitudes.  So in the UK on Super Unleaded 97 or 99 Ron min you might well expect better than published with a Skoda. Not better than they say a VW or Audi might get even if a heavier vehicle. 

 

 

The EA211 engines are mapped in the UK for 95/91RON......so basically "de-tuned"

 

I've never seen 91RON in UK...so I got mine remapped to stage "1-B" which is stage1 but also to 98/95RON as per the GTI/R & removed my 95/91RON sticker & fitted the VW 98/95RON sticker.

 

The higher the octane rating the earlier (advanced) you need to fire the spark plugs...

 

Most maps just increase the turbo boost (by keeping the wastegate actuator closed for longer)...The Revo one I have also alters (advances) the spark plug timing, & also removes the factory limit (alters the settings) which strangles the fuel pump...well thats what I can find out from them..

[Ootohere]

The 1.4 TSI are the same but different from the 1.2TSI's. 

http://motorreviewer.com/engine.php?engine_id=116

 

Skoda did fit a 1.4 TSI in limited numbers to a Mk3 Fabia.   The R5 tribute 1.4 TSI 125ps 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 12 February, 2023 by toot

[fabdavrav]

2 hours ago, toot said:

The 1.4 TSI are the same but different from the 1.2TSI's. 

http://motorreviewer.com/engine.php?engine_id=116

 

Skoda did fit a 1.4 TSI in limited numbers to a Mk3 Fabia.   The R5 tribute 1.4 TSI 125ps 

 

 

 

I know the differences..I have the VAG workshop books..& the self study guides & various other in depth write ups on the EA211 engines...amongst other things!...

 

Skoda fitting the 125PS is a waste...why not fit the 140/150PS version 1.4lt EA211 as its virtually the same weight!..All down to marketing & the VAG group "hierarchy"..

[Ootohere]

Because they had the engines and DSG's & wanted Magazine & Social Media space,

but were not even giving a hint of doing a replacement for a Mk2 vRS. 

[m1kemex]

Well, I just spent the whole Sunday re-reading the thread and doing some research because I'm really into this. And I think it just paid off, because I picked up some bits that I missed at first.

 

The most important of all: do 1.2 and 1.4 engines share the same basic bloc design? I remember someone mentioning that they do, and that they are just bored with larger cylinders. If so, they must have the same bore / cylinder spacing, and if that's true -and contrary to common sense-, then the 1.2 engine is stronger by virtue of having more metal on it. It appears to be the case, as both have 82 mm spacing, despite having different bore diameter (71 vs 74.5 mm).

 

Sure, the displacement is lower, which limits the amount of power you can extract from it at the upper end of spectrum, but in the end, this is not a naturally aspirated engine, but forced induction, so it can burn as much fuel as we want it to, as long as it has enough oxygen for it, and it doesn't melt in the process...

 

None of that concerns us folks who are just looking for modest power gains with minimal modifications (basically, the goal of this topic), like in the 140-160HP range. But it does, however, open the possibility (at least in theory) for some interesting future modifications, such as swapping the head to add exhaust valve variable timing, which appears to be only present in the 150 HP variant of the 1.4 TSI, and not in the 125HP version, or the 1.2. And of course, installing a beefier clutch and transmission.

 

For now, I think all the problems mentioned here could be solved by a variable geometry turbo, as someone suggested earlier. Shouldn't our efforts focus on that?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[m1kemex]

23 hours ago, toot said:

If you are looking at gearboxes and BHP / Nm.

Look at the 2015 Polo GTI 1.8 TSI that came after the 2010-2014 Polo GTI 1.4 TSI Twincharger.

 

The Manual has the 1.8 TSI & 192 ps & 320 Nm,

and the DSG car was still 192ps but limited to 250 Nm (supposedly) .  Supposedly heavier, but just as fast.

 

 

Unless I'm missing something here, this simply can't be true. Power is a factor of torque x angular displacement. So if you lower the torque, you must raise the RPMs, in order to have the same power output (this is, in essence, what a transmission does: exchange, both up and down, torque and RPMs). It's basic Physics...

 

I've investigated and the manual 2015 Polo GTI uses the MQ350 transmission. There must be a DSG equivalent with a 350 Nm rating installed in the automatic version.

[m1kemex]

1.5 TSI Variable Geometry Turbo. Shouldn't be too complicated to adapt it mechanically. To have the electronics handle the extra actuator properly, probably much more complicated, but at least in theory, possible.

 

 

[Ootohere]

@m1kemex  Must does not come into it. & you are missing something. 

In 2015 the Polo GTI 1.8 TSI 192 ps got a DQ200 DSG. 7 Speed Twin Dry clutch.   

VW had not started production DQ380 or DQ381 7 speeds yet.

 

Members here had them, some had Mk2 vRS Fabia 1.4 TSI Twinchargers with a DQ200 DSG before them.

 

The thing is when you dyno it the figures are fiction.

Including kerb weights.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 13 February, 2023 by toot

[fabdavrav]

1 hour ago, m1kemex said:

Well, I just spent the whole Sunday re-reading the thread and doing some research because I'm really into this. And I think it just paid off, because I picked up some bits that I missed at first.

 

The most important of all: do 1.2 and 1.4 engines share the same basic bloc design?

 

 

 

 

Yes they do have the same basic design...but as you say bore & stroke are different also the oil circuit & pump is different on the 1.4lts...& various other things..

 

P.S. the 140PS & the 150PS got both camshafts as variable..

 

The 6speed manual MQ250 will take quite a bit more torque than 250Nm...its fitted to the 1.8lt petrol engines & in USA that also includes the MK7 Golf AWD "4-Motion sportwagen" (estate).

 

Plenty on the MK7 Golf forums have tuned this car to make a cheap "R" as they don't get the "R" estate in USA.

 

BUT the clutch goes...then when the clutch is upgraded, then the standard open diff goes...then finally its the gearbox which shreds the syncro's...

 

Some are doing a MQ350 gearbox swap to start with now!

 

 

Its a case of how much time/money you want throw at the "problem"...

 

[m1kemex]

12 hours ago, toot said:

@m1kemex  Must does not come into it. & you are missing something. 

In 2015 the Polo GTI 1.8 TSI 192 ps got a DQ200 DSG. 7 Speed Twin Dry clutch.   

VW had not started production DQ380 or DQ381 7 speeds yet.

 

Members here had them, some had Mk2 vRS Fabia 1.4 TSI Twinchargers with a DQ200 DSG before them.

 

The thing is when you dyno it the figures are fiction.

Including kerb weights.

 

 

Oh, I got you. It's just that I can't believe they just lied there. It's not just a marketing gimmick; this is downright fraud. You can't put a 192 HP engine in a car and rate the car at 192HP. You have to rate the car according to what it actually produces. I wonder how does VAG gets away with this...

[Ootohere]

They are 192 PS.  As a minimum on 95 ron.   They never cheated on that.

What i am saying is that the supposedly heavier DSG model with the lesser Nm torque out performs the supposedly lighter manual. 

VW got away with the Unladen weight of the Polo & Ibiza Twinchargers at launch which needed to be revised and also the emission / VED band's that they got compared to the lighter sister car on narrower tyres. 

VW Engineering, manipulated the figures.

 

Plenty or us run Stage 1 or stage 1.4 TSI Twinchargers with over 205 bhp and over 320 Nm with standard Clucth Packs or uprated & standard or uprated mapping of the DSG's.

Edited 13 February, 2023 by toot

[TheFozzy]

Hello all, it's been a while since I visited this thread.  Just to clear up some things from the last few posts.

 

 

The polo gti gearbox will not fit the ea211 engines as its designed to fit an ea888 engine which has a larger bell housing with a different bolt pattern. 

 

For gearbox upgrades your best bet will be looking for a gearbox from a CZD or CZE engine as I believe they may be MQ250s used on those.  The standard 6 speed PRQ boxes are perfectly capable of pushing power, unless you snap your dog bone mount which will crack the diff housing which is part of the bell housing (don't ask me how I know)

 

As for engines, all ea211 4 cylinder engines use almost identical long blocks, just with different bore/stroke combos.  Some have extra sensors or features, and some just have blanks cast into the block.  Swapping from the cjz 1.2tsi to a czc 1.4tsi is very easy, everything is identical except for a couple extra sensors at the back of the engine near where the turbo sits.  You can get away with not using these sensors and leaving them disconnected to use the oem ecu and loom for the 1.2, and as far as I'm aware, I still have the only 1.4tsi swapped mk3 fabia in the uk, and became the first to do a fmic conversion at the start of the month.

 

As for turbo swaps, the best results seem to have come from the rtmg hybrid turbos for the 1.4tsi ea211 engines such as the setup in @Monkey_Dan's Fabia.  You can still hit around 170-180 using a 1.4tsi turbo such as the ones listed at the start of this thread, but there are quite a few tuners who won't touch that turbo setup.

 

Lmk if anyone has any questions 👌