Bio Fuel - Effect on fuel economy

[stever750]

I know, it's hardly clear, I've seen the same links. This from Auto Express:

 

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/104126/official-e10-petrol-launches-september

 

The risk of now knowing with an old car is not insignificant, hence you'd think the Gov should be much more clear about when. It truly is an utter shambles of a communication exercise.

[stever750]

5 minutes ago, Evil said:

 

and, also contrary to your claim, pre 2011 will not necessarily be affected. I have 2 petrol cars that are pre-2011 and neither are affected.

This is easily checked by following the compatibility checkers that are, seemingly, all over the place.

Where did I state that? I've only referred top incompatible, not a date. Come on pal stop playing silly games....

[Breezy_Pete]

I doubt the government give much of a rat's anus about older cars or their owners.

[xman]

Škoda

E10 petrol is cleared for use in all following ŠKODA vehicles with petrol engines with the following exception:

• Felicia 1.3 litre OHV (40kw and 50kW) engines in the production years 1994 to 2001
• Other ŠKODA models using the 1.3 litre OHV engines produced prior to 1994.

NOTE: If your vehicle is listed above you should continue to use E5 petrol. If you are unsure please contact your local Škoda dealer.

[Evil]

22 minutes ago, stever750 said:

Where did I state that? I've only referred top incompatible, not a date. Come on pal stop playing silly games....

 

My apologies, it was someone else not you. I don't play silly games.... pal.

 

There is minimal risk of not knowing. The fuel is being sold now and has been for some weeks, compatibility checkers are easily found.

[xman]

https://www.gov.uk/check-vehicle-e10-petrol

Important E10 information

The E10 petrol check has been created by the Department for Transport (DfT) using information supplied by the European Automobile Manufacturers' Association and European Association of Motorcycle Manufacturers.

The information is subject to change and we cannot guarantee its accuracy. If your vehicle is fitted with replacement parts this will also affect its accuracy.

DfT and its partners will not be liable for any damage to your vehicle as a result of you using this service.

Warning. It's your responsibility to make sure you use the right fuel for your vehicle.

[Kenrw8]

Well I'm nearly through my first fill (42l) tank of Tesco E10 ( aka E5) and currently my range is down by 30 miles. I don't keep records , just monitor the range following fill up, ( usually 35-42 litres) , Fabia mk2 1.tsi.

 

Usually range is 400-420 but after 1/3 ish tank its 370 with combined trip mileage

 

I normally use Tesco 99.

 

 

 

 

Edited 4 August, 2021 by Kenrw8

[Routemaster1461]

On 04/08/2021 at 14:34, Kenrw8 said:

Well I'm nearly through my first fill (42l) tank of Tesco E10 ( aka E5) and currently my range is down by 30 miles. I don't keep records , just monitor the range following fill up, ( usually 35-42 litres) , Fabia mk2 1.tsi.

 

Usually range is 400-420 but after 1/3 ish tank its 370 with combined trip mileage

 

I normally use Tesco 99.

 

 

 

 

 

The issue here may be that you should get better mpg with 99 octane than E5. If you are using E10 and the mileage drops you are comparing E10 with 99 octane, not E10 v E5. if this is what you are doing the results are practically meaningless.

[Kenny R]

On 04/08/2021 at 14:34, Kenrw8 said:

Well I'm nearly through my first fill (42l) tank of Tesco E10 ( aka E5) and currently my range is down by 30 miles. I don't keep records , just monitor the range following fill up, ( usually 35-42 litres) , Fabia mk2 1.tsi.

 

Usually range is 400-420 but after 1/3 ish tank its 370 with combined trip mileage

 

I normally use Tesco 99.

 

 

 

 

Apparently there are a limited number of operatives that maintain all of Tesco fuel stations and they have been changing the pump labels to E10 well in advance in some cases, so they can get them all done before the September change over even though the pumps are still dispensing E5 fuel.

[J.R.]

On 30/07/2021 at 13:01, Kenrw8 said:

 

Those with cars pre 2011 will have ignition problems. pinking,

 

 

That is complete BS unless you are talking about very old classic cars still running distributors with points and condensors.

 

Every vehicle manufactured in the 16 years prior to the date you claim (and many for years before that) will have an ignition module with a 3D look up table and also critically a knock sensor, all vehicles automatically run the maximum ignition advance for the fuel being burnt and back the timing off to just under the detonation point, later ones vary it for each individual cylinder.

 

How it make me laugh when I read people saying that a car is pinking or has piston slap

 

It must be 25 years since I heard a road engine pinking, detonation is pretty much inaudible (amongst the cacophony of an engine developing max power) and will destroy an engine in the blink of an eye, never happens outside of the race track or on a rolling road where a knock sensor is not used.

[Evil]

1 hour ago, Routemaster1461 said:

 

The issue here may be that you should get better mpg with 99 octane than E5. If you are using E10 and the mileage drops you are comparing E10 with 99 octane, not E10 v E5. if this is what you are doing the results are practically meaningless.

Tesco Momentum 99 is an E5 fuel.

 

AFAIK only Esso super (whatever they call it) has no ethanol 

[AndyC]

I run a 1970's Triumph. It has to be run on at least 97 RON fuel or it misfires, runs on  etc. It will pink very easily if the timing isn't spot on, the original settings are now useless as fuel has changed so much, so its done by ear rotating the distributor in tiny increments. Its fitted with ethanol proof fuel hose to stop it being dissolved, but its the effect on the rest of the system thats most concerning. 40+ year old seals and floats are delicate enough without being attacked by the ethanol.

 

Andy

[Phil-E]

I've been using E10 for a year in my car. I did fill up twice with normal E5 (as they had problems with the E10 tank at the station or something). I notice zero difference between E5 and E5.

 

I believe that a higher ethanol content is good for a turbo petrol as it's more knock resistant?

 

I'm currently just driving to and from work 7km each way, driving a couple of KMs to the supermarket and that's about it. Getting 6,9 l/100km (41mpg) but this is gradually getting better since the service and spark plug change. Current range of just over 1000km per tank.

 

I've also found a different route to work that although takes a couple minutes longer it's a very quiet and economical route (been getting as good as 5,3 l/100km - 53mpg on these trips).

Edited 7 August, 2021 by Phil-E

[Routemaster1461]

9 hours ago, Evil said:

Tesco Momentum 99 is an E5 fuel.

 

AFAIK only Esso super (whatever they call it) has no ethanol 

 

I'm not sure that my post was clear. It is net relevant that 99 octane fuel is E5 or E 10. 99 octane will give better economy than 95 octane E5. 95 octane E5 may give better economy that 95 octane E10. If you try to compare 99octane E5 with 95 octane E10 and economy gets worse, is it due to the decrease in octane rating or the extra ethanol. You have changed two parameters and you don't know how much each parameter change has affected economy. Also, with the confusion at present, I'm not sure anyone actually knows what fuel they have in their tank. So speculation about economy is probably pointless.

[lol-lol]

About a 1% difference in fuel consumption so about 10 km ie 6 miles less on E10 rather than E5......

 

Another brick in the wall for ICE cars and yet another reason to go EV.  That MG 5 long range is looking better all the time.

 

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110606075634.htm

 

The VTT measurements show that the cars tested used an average of 10.30 litres of 95E10 per 100 km, as opposed to 10.23 litres of 98E5 per 100 km. The difference was 0.07 in favour of 98E5 on average, meaning that using 95E10 petrol, which has a higher ethanol content, increases consumption by 0.7%. Normalising measurement results of each individual test run with observed slight scatter in actual total work done over the driving cycle yields to somewhat higher overall difference, 1.0%.   An estimation of calorific values based on approximate fuel composition came out at 1.1% in favour of E5, which is highly consistent with the aforementioned 1.0% difference in consumption. 

 

[chimaera]

8 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

About a 1% difference in fuel consumption so about 10 km ie 6 miles less on E10 rather than E5......

 

Another brick in the wall for ICE cars and yet another reason to go EV.  That MG 5 long range is looking better all the time.

 

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110606075634.htm

 

The VTT measurements show that the cars tested used an average of 10.30 litres of 95E10 per 100 km, as opposed to 10.23 litres of 98E5 per 100 km. The difference was 0.07 in favour of 98E5 on average, meaning that using 95E10 petrol, which has a higher ethanol content, increases consumption by 0.7%. Normalising measurement results of each individual test run with observed slight scatter in actual total work done over the driving cycle yields to somewhat higher overall difference, 1.0%.   An estimation of calorific values based on approximate fuel composition came out at 1.1% in favour of E5, which is highly consistent with the aforementioned 1.0% difference in consumption. 

 

That's assuming no difference in efficiency due to the improved ignition quality of 98 vs 95 octane fuel, which is a bad assumption. Better ignition quality is going to play a part in reducing fuel consumption as well.

[Ootohere]

There is no 98 octane super unleaded sold in the UK.   

There is 97 ron minimum @ BP, Gulf, Sainsbury or others or 99 ron minimum from Shell, Tesco & Esso.

 

ESSO.

See the 99 ron and about Ethanol in different parts of the UK.   

Greenergy that produces & delivers Tesco Momentum 99 around the UK only do that for ESSO in some of the UK.

Edited 7 August, 2021 by e-Roottoot

[xman]

There has been an abnormal amount of fuel tanker activity at our local Sainsbury's. Seems I see them every two or three days, sometimes daily. Recently even a Greenergy branded tanker!

 

 

[lol-lol]

12 minutes ago, chimaera said:

That's assuming no difference in efficiency due to the improved ignition quality of 98 vs 95 octane fuel, which is a bad assumption. Better ignition quality is going to play a part in reducing fuel consumption as well.

 

My Fabia 2 VRS preferred 98 or higher octane but there are very few cars that actually need better than 95 octane, that said I do use Momentum in the bike even though it should be fine on 95, just prefer Momentum's characteristic.

 

Both engines well over 100 hp per litre but designed years after E10 was know about and considered in their design so a part from the, "up to about 1% loss of power and fuel consumption using E10 I will use the E10 in the petrol cars but Momentum in the bike, especially when the mods start going on ie tuned exhaust but the car, for the net few months until the EV arrives, just consider E10 as another nail in the coffin of ICE cars.  

 

[Ootohere]

Greenery are the biggest Road Fuel supplier in the UK.  Suppliers to Tesco, NISA, some of ESSO Stations and Independents & others. 

Part owned by Tesco PLC.    

There are Driver shortages and tanker deliveries might be changing presently.

 

@lol-lol Your twincharger had 98 super as the recommended fuel by the VW Group, but then when Shell went from 98 to 99 ron you must have been running 99 ron unless you were buying 97, or maybe 98/100/ 100+ on continental Europe.

 

These deliver fuel for Greenergy. 

 

 

 

 

Edited 7 August, 2021 by e-Roottoot

[lol-lol]

1 minute ago, e-Roottoot said:

Greenery are the biggest Road Fuel supplier in the UK.  Suppliers to Tesco, NISO, some of ESSO Stations and Independents & others. 

Part owned by Tesco PLC.    

There are Driver shortages and tanker deliveries might be changing presently.

 

As long as those supermarkets are not delivering more of that Rotterdam fuel with the damaging silicon in it which costs the supermarkets million in damages back in 2007/8.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-tesco-fuel-idUKL2817326720070302

   

[Ootohere]

Greenergy along with Royal Dutch Shell and others buy base fuel or import fuel already mixed where ever the price is right, and the bio.

Nobody caused as much engine failures with fuel as Royal Dutch Shell did when they introduced their new formula in the 1980's.

 

Royal Dutch Shell were Deaf Dumb & Blind when they were first told of cars with engines expiring.

 

 

 

 

Edited 7 August, 2021 by e-Roottoot

[lol-lol]

6 minutes ago, e-Roottoot said:

Greenery are the biggest Road Fuel supplier in the UK.  Suppliers to Tesco, NISO, some of ESSO Stations and Independents & others. 

Part owned by Tesco PLC.    

There are Driver shortages and tanker deliveries might be changing presently.

 

@lol-lol Your twincharger had 98 super as the recommended fuel by the VW Group, but then when Shell went from 98 to 99 ron you must have been running 99 ron unless you were buying 97, or maybe 98/100/ 100+ on continental Europe.

 

Usually 99 Octane Momentum and occasionally 99 Shell but that was pricey. Met another Fabia 2 VRS owner who only used 95 but would have thought he would suffer on MPG and definately on peak power where he would have been many HPs down.

 

Just brings me on to these silly small sized fuel tanks which E10 is not going to help.  Dread to think how bad that 2.4l NA Kia Sportage I had in Canada would be, tragic, and with 100 kms between fuel stations sometimes, scary. 

 

 

[lol-lol]

5 minutes ago, e-Roottoot said:

Greenergy along with Royal Dutch Shell and others buy base fuel or import fuel already mixed where ever the price is right, and the bio.

Nobody caused as much engine failures with fuel as Royal Dutch Shell did when they introduced their new formula in the 1980's.

 

Royal Dutch Shell were Deaf Dumb & Blind when they were first told of cars with engines expiring.

 

 

 

 

 

Fuel was fine in our two stroke motorbikes and Shell was the fuel of choice but then we had no valves to destroy as we had ports in the cylinder, just like a 50,000 hp marine engine burning residual fuel,  burning the crappiest fuel the world is what we did.

 

Government should take a penny a litre off the excise duty to compensate for E10 but will they, will they hell. 

 

[xman]

The fields around where I live used to be full of wheat, barley, peas, potatoes, other seasonal crops. Now they are full of this stuff

 

Up to 3m high, some fields now 4 years in a row. Getting higher each year, maybe more nitrogen phosphate? No crop rotation anymore.

 

Owned by the council. Those not being planted with this are being sold to developers