@ColinD I am up, and see people pull in in the middle of the night or finish shifts or go to start them and want to charge a vehicle.

I will move and let them on if i have enough charge, or tell them i need another 10, 20 mins or whatever.

As i see when sitting charging at maybe 2 or 3 am when getting someplace after meeting a flight late at an airport.

I will be doing that this week and if some barsteward has parked up for the night on a rapid i need to try and get on a 7 kW and get enough charge and hope in the morning the 'Blue BMW' has moved and i can get charging.

This is in one particular place but there others i go to exactly the same.   These are ignoramus's with home chargers that are parking up for a free charge for all night,

actually their cars need only a couple of hours max, or even 30 minutes.

 

I have met some and asked WTF and they are all french, with a shrug.

 

PS

Plugging into a Rapid charger and heading off for a round of golf and maybe lunch is a common practice for some utter muppets.

 

Perth Park & Ride totally hopeless just now while the new chargers are installed.

Edinburgh Park & Ride has plenty 7 kWh chargers, but if you plug in and leave your car for the up to 12 hours you might have the charger cut out 5 minutes after you have left.

Edited 5 June, 20233 yr by toot

On 04/06/2023 at 13:55, skomaz said:

Just paid 134p a litre here...

 

Get it while you can.  Saudi has just announced removing a million barrels a day from their production and clearly want to see oil rising in price.

 

That the good thing about electricity that it can be obtained from so many sources not just a bunch of mostly despotic countries.

 

Buying diesel and petrol, and I still this to a degree too sadly, lines the pockets of some of the most evil people in the world.

 

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

Wait, you so dedicated to EV charging "etiquette" that you would get up middle of the night to unplug and move the car?

 

Slow chargers like that are meant to be destination chargers, just park up and charge. Don't need to move until you plan to leave. Treat it like a parking spot.

That doesn't make sense.

 

I have an 8 hour window when I am not at work and this was for 9 days! I either try and get 6-7 hours sleep a night, after being on my feet for over 15 hours straight (I also did enough steps to put me in the top 3% for 9 days straight! ). The nearest charger was about half a mile away, but I would have to drive there, walk back to the digs, try and get to sleep (remember I have 8 hours of free time) get up from sleep, walk back to car (so adding a total of another mile to my 8 miles a day regime) and try to get back to sleep for a couple of hours (not much chance having just got up and dressed to go move the car).

 

If I leave the car charging overnight, I get hit with a penalty after 4 hours and I would still have to get up a bit earlier to move the car and hopefully find a decent parking space on a road near where I am staying. It's utter nonsense. Maybe 9-5 ers find it easy, but I was working 5-8+!! That's not 3 hours a day work either. I work hard, do long hours and time is at a premium. I'm sure some would stay in Chelsea, pay an extortionate amount for digs - there are some cheaper, but ropy B&Bs about, pay for parking (nice Q park nearby at £30+ a day) and return home with hardly any profit from their excursion. I work to make a living, a PHEV is just an inconvenience I didn't see happening. I won't make that mistake again if I have an alternative. Thank God I don't drive an EV. As I keep saying, it works for some, but not for me. I went into this thing with hope in my heart and a positive attitude, but now realise the error of my way.

 

Also, not charging for long periods of time leads to other pain in the bum things, like the mileage calculator for electrical running displays nonsense. You might have 20 miles of range, but it displays 11. A flat traction battery means the car keeps monetarily switching to recharge mode (from its ICE) to keep it as a minimum charge (approx 2-3kWh) this is also necessary as I believe the heating comes from the traction battery. Anyhoo the upshot is economy drops even further. On the motorway the mpg is not end of the world stuff, it's merely hampered by the extra weight and complexity it drags around half the time. I'm at home at the moment and have done a couple of trips to the shops on 95% EV power, great, makes sense, would recommend it to people living this lifestyle, but my next big job, will cause exactly the same problems as above. 

On 04/06/2023 at 14:41, Lady Elanore said:

I've got to say that PHEVs can be a pain in the bum. I often charge up at home, drive a distance which will flatten the traction battery (it's nicely metered out during the course of the journey if you use the sat nav). But once away from home, I can't recharge. This is mainly down to the fact that PHEVS generally (or not at all afaik) don't have fast charging capabilities. They either do 3.7kW or 7kW charging, meaning you need either 4 or 2 hours to recharge. I don't have time to waste doing that sort of tethered recharge. I therefore fill up and drive around as a heavy 1.6 petrol car that is lugging around a crazy amount of excess weight. EV/PHEVS etc  still do not work for me and I can't see that changing between now and when I retire.

Once I no longer work I'll give EVs a proper look. but suspect I won't be able to afford one with decent range. 

 

I am still waiting for a decent PHEV to be launched by the mainstream manufacturers. 

I am not generally a BMW fan, more an inverted snob, but I thought the i3 range extended version was a good car, if not expensive but then it was unique.

It should have been replaced and that should have been a real peach.

 

Decent side battery and a small ICE to run at motorway speeds and get one home or to a fast charger.  Charging at at least 100 kWh, range of at least 250 miles of batteries and 100 miles on petrol with a litre 3 gallon or so tank to fill up at the petrol station I thought would sell well have than having a small 10 kWh battery and a overlarge ie 1 litre of over petrol engine, one only needs 20 kW or so to run along the 150/200 W electric motor to be fun and have good range.

 

Oh and a record just broken.....

 

  

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, toot said:

Right there is the issue.

 

Fine when there are lines of 7 / 11 kW chargers and 'come on down'. Plenty to choose from.

 But the 'i am all right jack and stuff everyone else is i am parked up and no longer charging and no way going out of my way to move and let others get charged.' is a p!ss take.

  

5 hours ago, toot said:

I will be doing that this week and if some barsteward has parked up for the night on a rapid

 

We have to make the distinction between rapid and destination charging.

I'm talking about 3/7/11/22 kW AC destination chargers, it is parking space with charging as a bonus.

I'm not talking about DC rapid chargers, I totally agree rapid charging is a 30min splash and dash affair.

 

  

4 hours ago, Lady Elanore said:

get up from sleep, walk back to car (so adding a total of another mile to my 8 miles a day regime) and try to get back to sleep for a couple of hours (not much chance having just got up and dressed to go move the car).

All I'm saying is you don't need to wake up middle of the night to move a car that is plugged in to a destination charger.

3/7/11/22 kW AC destination chargers, it is parking space with charging as a bonus. 

3 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

I am still waiting for a decent PHEV to be launched by the mainstream manufacturers. 

I am not generally a BMW fan, more an inverted snob, but I thought the i3 range extended version was a good car, if not expensive but then it was unique.

It should have been replaced and that should have been a real peach.

 

Decent side battery and a small ICE to run at motorway speeds and get one home or to a fast charger.  Charging at at least 100 kWh, range of at least 250 miles of batteries and 100 miles on petrol with a litre 3 gallon or so tank to fill up at the petrol station I thought would sell well have than having a small 10 kWh battery and a overlarge ie 1 litre of over petrol engine, one only needs 20 kW or so to run along the 150/200 W electric motor to be fun and have good range.

 

Oh and a record just broken.....

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

It's funny, but the number of Teslas I've watch go around a track and suffer power drops (overheating) and brake failure are numerous. This one had the  (very wise) track Pack, which adds the essential Carbon Ceramics. 

 

But that is just over 3 seconds quicker than a car similar to my M3 went round. I did save around £40-50k on the Tesla price mind you and I suspect the M3 could do that time numerous times back to back. I remember watching the TT Zero doco and seeing the faces of spectators when the first EV bikes to get around 100mph for a lap went past If only they could do more than one lap at a time it would be interesting to see how fast they might truly go. 

9 minutes ago, Lady Elanore said:

 

It's funny, but the number of Teslas I've watch go around a track and suffer power drops (overheating) and brake failure are numerous. This one had the  (very wise) track Pack, which adds the essential Carbon Ceramics. 

But that is just over 3 seconds quicker than a car similar to my M3 went round. I did save around £40-50k on the Tesla price mind you and I suspect the M3 could do that time numerous times back to back. I remember watching the TT Zero doco and seeing the faces of spectators when the first EV bikes to get around 100mph for a lap went past If only they could do more than one lap at a time it would be interesting to see how fast they might truly go. 

 

Ceramic brakes and semi slick tyres make the difference but these are items one can fit to many semi performance cars.  Anything Musk does tends to be brilliant and the Model S but the Model S is designed as a big comfortable car and not designed as a sport car but just takes the quarter mile times as electric tech is just a quantum leap ahead of ICE tech and the year on year improvements extrapolate to electric cars over hauling ICE cars in all regards over the next few years.

 

A shame there has been no Zero (emissions) TT for the last few years ie across the pandemic and again this year sadly but they were improving very rapidly and when we do see them back, hopefully next year, we will see something special, Rutter's 122 mph average speed lap, he must have been doing up road 180 mph off the mountain as it was quicker than the super sport bikes....  https://www.visordown.com/news/general/rutter-wins-tt-zero-mugen-speed-traps-faster-supersport

 

"Significantly, however, in a straight line Rutter could show exactly how far all-electric technology has come after coming through the Sulby speed traps at 176mph, which is faster than the Supersport bikes from earlier in the day.  A measure of the sheer gains made over a decade when the TT Zero class was first introduced - to much debate - Mugen's performance is likely to be viewed as one of the electric motorsport movements most important breakthroughs..."

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

  

 

 

  

All I'm saying is you don't need to wake up middle of the night to move a car that is plugged in to a destination charger.

3/7/11/22 kW AC destination chargers, it is parking space with charging as a bonus. 

 

 

I don't want to have to pay for parking if I can have it for free, London is expensive enough as it is.

 

It matters not whether I have to pay for parking and get free electricity, or pay for electricity and get free parking.  In fact, on the return trip it means my M3 wouldn't really cost much more to drive home than my PHEV. 

 

 

 

I had written a lengthy reply explaining why I like to have my car within reasonable reach (it's a work related matter) where the charging possibilities are, where I stay in London and also the cost implications of my parking, but have now deleted that part of this post as it is clearly pointless to print it. I realise you are an EV fan, but IT DOESN'T WORK FOR ME AND MY JOB!!!!!!! Enjoy your EV. I don't want one thank you. They are an inferior vehicle for my needs. One day this might not be so.

 

I won't reply any further on the matter. 

Look, I'm not saying you should get any type of vehicle. Different people, different use cases. 

 

All I'm saying is that moving the car at a destination charger, in the middle of the night, is not needed. 

Location location location and not everyone is in London and this 'Destination charger' term means nothing if all there is within a mile or more is 1 charger post or maybe 2.

 

Idiots that plug into a charger just for a parking place overnight or daytime on Public chargers and do not need the energy.  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 6 June, 20233 yr by toot

58 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Look, I'm not saying you should get any type of vehicle. Different people, different use cases. 

All I'm saying is that moving the car at a destination charger, in the middle of the night, is not needed. 

 

Will not be longer when you can tell you car to go off and go to a cheap charger, say at 0030, collect 4 hours of cheap power and come back to the hotel and park up again.

Car can just give me a ring if there is a problem like no parking spaces and one has to make a human decision to park elsewhere.

Will need induction charging or these robots which are becoming available that stick the charger in to the car's charging port be that tech is already about.

We have been do this with our buses in France for years ie park in a marked box and the charger inserts and zaps the electricity in.

 

ACR Hyundai style....

and VW....

 

Edited 6 June, 20233 yr by lol-lol

@toot

 

I liked the final paragraphs of the "Destination charging etiquette" but I would like for you to rewrite them using your sentiments in the matter as it seems appealing to selfish people to be "polite" fails so the message should be written in terms they understand!

1 hour ago, toot said:

Location location location and not everyone is in London and this 'Destination charger' term means nothing if all there is within a mile or more is 1 charger post or maybe 2.

 

Idiots that plug into a charger just for a parking place overnight or daytime on Public chargers and do not need the energy.  

Our lives don't evolve around the needs of the car. As CPS "destination charging etiquette" notes, sometimes people are not in a position to move their car and that's okay, for example parked overnight whilst sleeping.

 

I totally understand when limited on range, such as when I was driving Leaf, the suitable place to charge is much smaller. This means every charger counts. This is why I have been very vocal about people sitting on rapid chargers. Rapid chargers are like petrol stations, you wouldn't see people block a petrol pump and disappear off to the high street for hours would you?

 

But destination charging is just parking spots with bonus. It would be crazy to suggest someone to get up at middle of the night to move their car from one parking spot to another. So why demand this for EV's?

People need or don't need the energy is for the individual to decide, I wouldn't presume either way. I agree people plugging in for the parking spot is very selfish. However, free or disproportionally cheap anything public just does not work, that's the root of the problem.

@wyx087There are all sorts of circumstances right enough.

If you ever live in a small community or area where people know people you get to know those that plug into a 'destination' chargers right near their house or Air B&B, work place  etc and just leave there plugged in rather then walk a minute or 2 and take it out the bay and park in the car park that is free parking anyway.

 

Crazy to get up in the middle of the night is fair enough.

Park on a charger at T Time and even if you are only getting 6.6 kWh charge then before going to bed move it, and do not leave it til breakfast time if the car is within spitting distance. 

'Simply Clever', simply not greedy because charging might be free or cheaper than your home tariff. 

Edited 6 June, 20233 yr by toot

15 minutes ago, toot said:

@wyx087There are all sorts of circumstances right enough.

If you ever live in a small community or area where people know people you get to know those that plug into a 'destination' chargers right near their house or Air B&B, work place  etc and just leave there plugged in rather then walk a minute or 2 and take it out the bay and park in the car park that is free parking anyway.

All I'm saying is, generally, one wouldn't expect other people to vacate destination charger after charging finished.

 

I don't know the in's and out's what you saw. All I can say is that if people don't move their car for days on end, that's very selfish of them. I don't feel it's a problem if leaving it plugged in overnight, say 6pm to 9am.

 

At work place, there's only 8 charging spots. People know it's not enough so try to move their cars when possible. Sometimes people are in all-day meeting and cannot move their car, it's not end of the world. There's rapid chargers about for BEV and there's petrol for PHEV.

Edited 6 June, 20233 yr by wyx087

The ins and outs are drivers of BEV,s and PHEV,s that might just need an hour or 2 charging maybe only 10 minutes to top it up for the next trip on a rapid just not getting it that there are many others in the area wanting the same.

The ins and out is where there are not many chargers to allow the charging of many vehicles.

I understand that all do not want to spend 40 minutes rapid charging and parking elsewhere bit sticking a big battery EV on a 7 , 22, 22, 43 AC and bogging off when the car only needed maybe 10 kWh of a top up is the issue, the common issue.

 

Anyway that crap will not be annoying me anymore.

I am getting withdrawal symptoms and missing the charger wars and the kind of muppets that think they have entitlement to public charging and those that post pictures of them taking unfair advantage are just sad with too much time and crap electric cars and they should get bigger ones and park on Fast (Slow) / Destination chargers all day. 

Edited 6 June, 20233 yr by toot

6-10pm (tea time to bed time) may not be enough. I can manage 4 hours off peak at home because I can do 3 charges, but if someone need re-energise 70 kWh for next day, that's going to be 10 hours parked at the charger.

 

Indeed, the problem is not enough charging points. But, as CPS puts it, it is polite to move the car.

This is also why I keep saying, if you can charge at home, do so, it's far easier. Leave more expensive public ones for people who can't charge at home or tourists/visitors.

1 hour ago, toot said:

The ins and outs are drivers of BEV,s and PHEV,s that might just need an hour or 2 charging maybe only 10 minutes to top it up for the next trip on a rapid just not getting it that there are many others in the area wanting the same.

The ins and out is where there are not many chargers to allow the charging of many vehicles.

I understand that all do not want to spend 40 minutes rapid charging and parking elsewhere bit sticking a big battery EV on a 7 , 22, 22, 43 AC and bogging off when the car only needed maybe 10 kWh of a top up is the issue, the common issue.

Anyway that crap will not be annoying me anymore.

I am getting withdrawal symptoms and missing the charger wars and the kind of muppets that think they have entitlement to public charging and those that post pictures of them taking unfair advantage are just sad with too much time and crap electric cars and they should get bigger ones and park on Fast (Slow) / Destination chargers all day. 

 

Very few cars can charge at 22 kW AC, this is one list that looks quite accurate......https://www.myevreview.com/electric-cars-ac-charging-comparison

Zoes will charge on three pin, 3.6 kw, 7, 11, 16 and 22 kW AC that I have used.  Never charged on DC and hopefully will not, expensive at regular doing so damaging to the Lithium ion battery.  Some of the QC Zoes will charge at 43 kW AC, which is basically as quick as it will charge on DC, but there are not the losses and therefore the extra costs of using DC over AC.

 

1.	Lightyear 0	22 kW
1.	Lotus Eletre Eletre S	22 kW
1.	Lotus Eletre	22 kW
1.	Lotus Eletre Eletre R	22 kW
1.	Maserati GranTurismo Folgore	22 kW
1.	Maserati Grecale Folgore	22 kW
1.	Mercedes-Benz EQS SUV Maybach 680	22 kW
1.	Mercedes-Benz EQT 200	22 kW
1.	Pininfarina Battista	22 kW
1.	Polestar 4 Long Range Single Motor	22 kW
1.	Polestar 4 Long Range Dual Motor	22 kW
1.	Renault Twingo E-Tech Electric R80	22 kW
1.	Renault Zoe R110	22 kW
1.	Renault Zoe R135	22 kW
1.	Rimac Nevera 1408 kW	22 kW
1.	Smart #1 Brabus	22 kW

 

Electric guitar not gas powered....

 

 

Edited 6 June, 20233 yr by lol-lol

@wyx087  70 kWh batteries might well need 10 or 11 hours parked at a 7 kW charger, or less on a 11 kW.

But the pith take is those that only do a few miles a day and somehow need to plug in for hours on chargers not charging.

Like the ones i see, know, can check how long they are on a charger.

Like the ones near me that i happily put up on Zapmap or Plugshare.   They want to advertise their business on a company vehicle so i help them be seen by a wider public.

 

PS.

A rise from 23 pence a kWh to 41 pence seems to have them back charging at home or maybe at the workplace where HMRC / Tax payers are already subsidising their use of EV's for business use.

Just as i did, once and only once.

Edited 6 June, 20233 yr by toot

It's been an education reading others experiences over a long period, learning of those for whom it was a mistake and who are moving back to IC powered vehicles, the more vehicles there are fighting for limited charging points and the massive increases in domestic electric prices will have changed the economics for those on the fence.

 

I am once again having visits from infirmière à domiciles (having restarted the work that put me in hospital the bio-hazard has decided to take residence in my lungs this time ) I noted that many of them are driving new or newish EV's, they typically visit 40-60 patients a day within a close radius of their home, they can easily recharge if need be in the obligatory 2 hour lunch break, they  get paid maybe €10-14 each visit,  fuel and vehicle purchase & repairs are their major expense, the one today was driving a VW ID something, she says she is saving €500 a month with it.

 

It could be that her comparison was with when diesel was at its highest price, had France not renationalised EDF and allowed the electricty prices to be dictated by market forces like other countries then she would probably now be worse off with her EV.

http://falkirkherald.co.uk/news/people/disappointment-for-electric-vehicle-drivers-after-nhs-forth-valley-restricts-use-of-new-charge-points-at-falkirk-community-hospital

 

 

Loads of NHS and Social Work employees now have EV's for work and not enough workplace parking or charging.

 

Many large hospitals without EV charging for Visitors or staff with private cars. 

Dundee Ninewells teaching hospital as an example with 1 ev charging point.

Free parking now after the Scottish Government had to buy out the private operators contract for Ninewells for £35 million.

 

That should give some idea of the size and how much the operator was making annually.

Edited 6 June, 20233 yr by toot

1 hour ago, J.R. said:

It could be that her comparison was with when diesel was at its highest price, had France not renationalised EDF and allowed the electricty prices to be dictated by market forces like other countries then she would probably now be worse off with her EV.

The thing is, electricity price is more under control of government than petrol/diesel oil prices. So although it's not valid to compare running cost against highest peak oil price of 2022, I also don't believe it is also right to say electricity prices dictated by market forces will be expensive.

 

For example, highest diesel price was £2 a litre in 2022. Highest electricity price in UK, where a higher percentage of electricity is gas powered than France, in late 2022 was going to be 51.8p/kWh  under market conditions. Running EV is still going to be cheaper without government intervention.

 

52p/kWh translates to 17.5p/mi, when 3.33 mi/kWh.

£2 per litre diesel translates to 18p/mi when 50mpg.

2 hours ago, J.R. said:

It's been an education reading others experiences over a long period, learning of those for whom it was a mistake and who are moving back to IC powered vehicles, the more vehicles there are fighting for limited charging points and the massive increases in domestic electric prices will have changed the economics for those on the fence........

 

It could be that her comparison was with when diesel was at its highest price, had France not renationalised EDF and allowed the electricty prices to be dictated by market forces like other countries then she would probably now be worse off with her EV.

 

Many who moved to EVs it is ethical not just economic.  I have a petrol fuel card but still have an EV and use it particularly for London where pollution is a massive problem ie circa 10,000 lives shortened due to air pollution.

 

UK charging stations are being rolled out faster than ever, there are now over 70,000 public charging connection and it can be a great money earners for those who do it right.

EV owners and the PCP holding car companies, I suspect, concern will be the recent rapid fall in EV values and most have made the acquiring of an EV a financial good thing. My experience is my PCP payment is well under £300 pm and running cost on energy about 2p a mile.  Service costs are about a third of ICE service, what is not to like ?

Nearly 40% more chargers in the last year.

The EV guts in hybrids has helped them improve their fuel consumption by a good quarter if the Arkana, Clio and Kadjur are typical examples, a few thousands more to buy and was not worth it for me as I do motorway driving rather than town driving but many swear by them.  Latest ZAP figures...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How many public charging points are there in the UK?

At the end of May 2023, there were 43,626 electric vehicle charging points across the UK, across 25,413 charging locations.This represents a 38% increase in the total number of charging devices since May 22.

Last month, 1,628 new EV charging devices were added to the Zapmap database.  These figures show how many electric charging points in the UK there are that are part of the country’s public EV charging infrastructure. However, they do not include the many charge points installed at home or at workplace locations, which are estimated to be more than 400,000. Some of these EV charging points are available to the public in some form via community or visitor charging.

How is the UK charging points network growing over time?

As the chart reveals, the past few years have seen a significant increase in the number of public EV charge points in the UK. Between the end of 2016 and 2022 the charge point network grew four-fold from 6,500 to more than 37,261 devices and in the last 12 months between end of 2021 to end of 2022, over 8,600 charge points were added to the UK network, a growth of 30%.

Number of public UK charging points by speed (2016 to date)

Type	Slow	Fast	Rapid	Ultra-rapid
2016	910	4663	823	150
2017	968	6002	961	262
2018	1297	7846	1571	340
2019	3366	10718	2411	476
2020	4570	12464	3142	788
2021	7247	16047	3874	1290
2022	8932	21427	4607	2295
2023 (YTD)	10699	24443	5182	3302

 

Source: Zapmap database. Updated: 31st May 2023

     

2 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

UK charging stations are being rolled out faster than ever

But according to reports not as fast as the rate of increase of EV sales, which is why some EV owners are finding it so difficult to charge they are switching back to ICE or PHEV.

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

The thing is, electricity price is more under control of government

 

That depends on what government you are speaking of.

 

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

For example, highest diesel price was £2 a litre in 2022. Highest electricity price in UK, where a higher percentage of electricity is gas powered than France, in late 2022 was going to be 51.8p/kWh 

 

I'm not sure what our highest diesel price would have been without the governments 30cts rebate at the pump intervention and the 15cts they managed to persuade Total Energies to deduct as well under threat of windfall taxes.

 

Our electricity was allowed to go up by 5% rather than the 34% that EDF wanted which was still far less than the market rate would have been, we now pay 20.62 cts per kwh = about 18p, off peak is relatively expensive at 16.15cts = 14p, these prices are fixed for a year, future increases are not likely to be any higher as 5% was far more than any previous increase and brought the strikers to the streets.

 

Did the UK government subsidise the cost of road fuel during the high period and also the cost of electricity?