I remember as a child going on Holiday to the IOM in the 1960s

 

We went on the Train/foot/ferry the luggage was sent via parcelforce/post office two weeks before and we got it back two weeks after we came home.

 

 

Those were the days.

 

I was the first in my immediate family to have a car, i know which i prefer.

3 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

But having experienced modern and efficient mass transit elsewhere in the world, I honestly don't think going to train travel for longer distances, underground/bus/tram for built-up areas is going back in time. I think it is actually the next stage of civilisation. Mass transit can be easy, fast, frequent, efficient and effortless.

But still suffers from the drawback that it doesn't take you from where you are to where you need to be when you need to be there at an affordable cost.

 

When I lived in South Molton the nearest mainline station was Tiverton Parkway which was a 40 minute drive away with infrequent buses to get there and parking fess so high that even with a Senior Citizen railcard it was cheaper to drive to London for a weekend visit to family. For mass transit to be a realistic option for many people it needs to provide more frequent services at more affordable prices and be part of an integrated travel network of trains and buses.

 

The severe cutting back of HS2 and the lack of willingness to integrate mass transit systems means that it cannot become a viable alternative to personal transport without a total change in mindset in the UK.

The big mistake was made by Beeching, instead of using the local lines to create his Intercity network, knocking many local services to hourly and less, they should have built the High speed networks when they had  the room. we could now have trams on all the old lines.

 

This is a map of Railway lines in my local area. The green  (L&YR) and purple(LNWR) lines are Historic the red are today

 

 

You can have a look where you live

 

https://www.railmaponline.com/UKIEMap.php

Edited 23 August, 20241 yr by Stonekeeper

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

I'm saying in order to feel the freedom to travel, one should not require use of a car.

After that change of mindset, banning cars or restricting cars is no big deal.

 

As I mentioned earlier, UK rail infrastructure is severally lacking. It was built before cars became wide spread. Combined with the fact it has had poor investment in recent decades. As such (UK) people do think of rail travel as going back in time, which is justified. This is symptom of UK's emphasis on cars over many decades, and as a consequence, people without cars are put at a huge disadvantage.

 

But having experienced modern and efficient mass transit elsewhere in the world, I honestly don't think going to train travel for longer distances, underground/bus/tram for built-up areas is going back in time. I think it is actually the next stage of civilisation. Mass transit can be easy, fast, frequent, efficient and effortless.

Well I and a good few other people are going to have to continue to disagree with you. This country and quite a few others around the world all operate on a for-profit basis and if that profit is not there except for certain times of the day, then those services are simply not being offered outside the lucrative times, full stop. Our rail network was destroyed many years ago by the Beeching cuts when large chunks of the infrastructure were removed and disconnected from the system, leaving people living in the areas served by the trains no other options but to either move to a large city (not at all easy or possible for many people) or go and get themselves a car and join the car set. Buses in these areas is also not an option as I know from actually working in that sector when they were nationalised that rural parts of the country would get a limited bus service at certain times of the day, again not ideal, but better than what they get today, with zero bus services. Since they were denationalised it is run as profit centre, no profit, no service. When that happened the publicly owned Royal Mail decided to operate a fleet of mini-buses in the rural areas but was only operating when the post was being either delivered or collected from post boxes or village post offices, the later of which have now largely been axed. The Royal Mail is now a privately owned business focused on profit only, so these services now no longer run.

 

 

 

Even in some large towns and cities the bus service is woefully inadequate and offers only a partial solution with large chunks of real estate not being covered and the areas that are covered only operate between certain times and when you get things like flu, or covid etc, then they operate like massive conduits to pass it onto the population in vast numbers because that the only transport available.

 

No I'm sorry, but mass transit systems are not the solution, they are part of a solution if you happen to live in the right area, which London is just about the best connected city in the UK but even then it does leave a lot to be desired. You happen to live in London and I have heard the arguments that you present many times before and almost certainly it is repeated by people like you who live in London and can take a reasonable level of service for granted, those less fortunate cannot see the logic in your thinking. 

 

To advocate dropping the car and using mass transit system is like it or not going backwards, a bit like taking away your UHDTV and giving you back in its place an old black and white TV with just 3 programs, BBC1 BBC2 and ITV in 405 lines transmitted via the air and if you again happen to be in the right location, you can get a picture. You would not be happy with that, I'm sure.

Edited 23 August, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

1 hour ago, PetrolDave said:

The severe cutting back of HS2 and the lack of willingness to integrate mass transit systems means that it cannot become a viable alternative to personal transport without a total change in mindset in the UK.

Exactly, it's the mindset.

 

This country's mass transit system is very bad outside central London. Too much money had gone into short sighted car centric development. Projects like HS2 should never be cut back.

 

2 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

To advocate dropping the car and using mass transit system is like it or not going backwards,

But I'm not advocating dropping cars. I'm saying 

On 22/08/2024 at 12:36, wyx087 said:

as long as there is actual viable transport option for all abilities. In the end, there should only be vans remain on the road.

 

Pick the right tool for the right job.

 

Translation, in areas that have viable transport options, change the mindset away from "car is first option, car is king of the road, car equals freedom".

Further translation, doesn't apply to areas that currently have poor alternative transport options.

 

Actually, my TV is around 10 years old now and not UHD 😛  It gets use so little these days not worth creating e-waste by upgrading it.

 

Disagreeing is okay, I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm just saying UK public have an obsession with cars and it's not sustainable. Mindset need changing.

When the Beeching axe fell i doubt London noticed

 

Coloured lines Historic red today

 

On 22/08/2024 at 13:08, wyx087 said:

 

But selfish people in cars make it really slow.

 

 

Not wishing to cause offence but in my neck of the woods it's invariably the buses that slow all other traffic down with their antics at stops (not wanting to pull in / rivals blocking each other in at the stop etc.).  At work we have the analysis from the bus GPS trackers and video and it's quite clear...

Edited 23 August, 20241 yr by skomaz

3 minutes ago, skomaz said:

 

Not wishing to cause offence but in my neck of the woods it's invariably the buses that slow all other traffic down with their antics at stops (not wanting to pull in / rivals blocking each other in at the stop etc.).  We have the analysis from the bus GPS trackers and video and it's quite clear...

 

That together with the planning going into creating congestion on the roads.

29 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

 

Projects like HS2 should never be cut back.

 

 

As someone who has a degree of involvement in the scheme I disagree - the economics are flawed and, for the money, a large number of other schemes could be progressed that would provide more benefits to the population on both  a local, reginal and national scale - be that Public Transport related or not.

 

As you yourself pointed out - pick the right tool for the job...

Edited 23 August, 20241 yr by skomaz

12 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

That together with the planning going into creating congestion on the roads.

 

Oh yes - I can name a number of locations both local and further afield where traffic lights have been deliberately set to hold back traffic and meter the flow.  A prime example being a particular local authority where one of the local Councillors lived on a side road that fed into a major road on the strategic road network.  The Council and Councillor had been campaigning for a bypass for years but analysis of the traffic signal specification and timings clearly showed they had been set to give priority to the side road even when no traffic was waiting on it - thus artificially holding back traffic on the SRN, thus creating congestion to back up the request for a bypass.

 

Sorry but that is just wrong on all counts and not uncommon.

 

I've managed the installation of traffic lights that have special 'MOVA' control systems (effectively they self-manage and optimise the signal timings to maximise operational capacity) that have been designed, set and refined on-site whilst live by our staff but, on revisiting to check their operation at a later date as part of the set-up regime we've found that the MOVA control system has been turned off by the Local Authority...

Edited 23 August, 20241 yr by skomaz

7 minutes ago, skomaz said:

Not wishing to cause offence but in my neck of the woods it's invariably the buses that slow all other traffic down with their antics at stops (not wanting to pull in / rivals blocking each other in at the stop etc.).  We have the analysis from the bus GPS trackers and video and it's quite clear...

The thing is, if we take away the problematic buses, a portion of those people would drive, increasing amount of cars on the road.  Would that make overall traffic flow better or worse?

On the other end of scale, if we take away car traffic for that area. Forcing people to use the buses. Would that speed up the said buses and allow more people to get places?

 

Just a simple thought exercise. I know reality can be different.

 

4 minutes ago, skomaz said:

 

As someone who has a degree of involvement in the scheme I disagree - the economics are flawed and, for the money, a large number of other schemes could be progressed that would provide more benefits to the population on both  alocal, reginal and national scale - be that Public Transport related or not.

Fair enough. I agree economics were flawed and ever worsening. But what big infrastructure project isn't?

 

UK is in dire need of rail upgrades and whole thing restructuring. A useful HS2 could have been the start and the backbone.

Just now, wyx087 said:

The thing is, if we take away the problematic buses, a portion of those people would drive, increasing amount of cars on the road.  Would that make overall traffic flow better or worse?

On the other end of scale, if we take away car traffic for that area. Forcing people to use the buses. Would that speed up the said buses and allow more people to get places?

 

 

On the first point - Probably better given that most of the time the buses had minimal usage due to the unreliability they created in the first place...  free flow traffic would be the result with the potential capacity to flow 1860 cars or more an hour through the same point.  Allow for the two minutes or so the buses caused an issue and that equates to 62 cars roughly...   so probably a balance if the bus was totally full.

 

As for the second - yes it might speed up the said buses but, as has been pointed out - the network outside of London isn't suitable for a large part of the population and even if it was providing a regular (10 minute) service throughout the day on routes that have minimal usage (eg rural ones) would require massive subsidies.

 

I do agree with your point re a change in mindset though - but it needs to encompass all modes and be reflective of need - unfortunately most people are too blinkered one way or the other

Railways are OK if you live in a town or city, but if you live way out in the sticks with minimal or no bus service the car is your only option. Then there is the cost of using a train. If I drive to Manchester and back it would cost me around £60 in diesel. If I use the train I would have to  walk 1 1/2 miles to the station,then a train to Waterloo, tube to the embankment, tube to Victoria, Victoria to Manchester, cost of more than £120 return. I could have 4 people in the car and luggage. On the train the cost would be x4 and luggage would have to be carried from train to tube etc.

Railways have their place, but so does the car.

Chargeplace Scotland join Octopus Electroverse I see.

 

Just need Gridserve and Tesla public charging to do so also and very happy days.

 

Edited 23 August, 20241 yr by lol-lol

& Electroverse can not get the tariff correct at Chargers administered by Charge Place Scotland.

............

I see that the HMRC have changed the AFC on electric cars to 7 pence from 1st September.

...........

Today as i hear about Energy Prices rising again next quarter i am pleased to got my tariff up till next July at 22.03 pence a kWh.

...........

Had the Smart Meter fitted today.

Car was at 90%. 100%-90% was 13 miles driven in town, 4 trips. It was 4 kWh to charge back to 100%, 

 

 

Electricity (single charge rate) cap to rise by 9 9% in less than 40 days time.

 

Gas price to rise by 14%, ouch.

 

Both standing daily charges to only go up a percent or so.

 

Yet to see what Octopus, the UKs largest energy supplier is going to do.

 

The extension of the super low price time period from 4 to 5 hours was and is fantastic.  Had to reprogram some of the Zoes time slot charging profiles to just grab 1,2,3 or 4 hours so I just get the a nidge over 80% charged ie 200 miles range rather than change its lithium battery too close too 100%, or 103% where it actually goes I reckon with the 1.5 kwh hour extra buffers at bottom and top of reported.

 

Real World.

ElectroVerse App is no better than the CPS App for getting chargers started in areas with weal Mobile / Internet connections.

 

 

I call them Tom (Jones)

It is not unusual.    To have this. 

1 minute ago, Ootohere said:

Real World.

ElectroVerse App is no better than the CPS App for getting chargers started in areas with weal Mobile / Internet connections.

 

 

I call them Tom (Jones)

It is not unusual.    To have this. 

 

They need to use satellite tech, have a word with Elon.

 

Here in my city, the railways used to have a pretty large goods yard and also small branch lines that used to run into local factory sites that are now large housing estates in the red square number 1 to the side of the station can be seen the old goods yard with small lines that used to go to Hoffman Ball Bearings factory, Marriages the flour millers and also Marconi's radio and TV transmitter factory, all now have gone and huge estates built. In the red square 2, there was another great big factory Crompton and Parkinson who made electric motors, electrical test gear, control panels and also did some electrical fit outs on diesel locomotives.

When I was working on the engineering side of the then nationalised buses (Eastern National) who had the main garage and station on the other side of the road by the train station I often had to go and meet trains that were also carrying urgent spares for the buses, from the Coach Builders in Lowestoft (Eastern Coachworks), or parts from Bristol who made the bus chassis and from Gardeners who made the engines or even CAV who made the electrical parts. When Beeching made his cuts, all of those items were transferred to road transport and the diesel locomotives went up north somewhere to be fitted out.

 

So that was a shot in the foot because look at the problems we have today with roads and the pollution from the exhausts, CO2 nox etc, which ever you look at it, many of the problems we are facing today are the direct result of poor political decisions taken years ago.

9 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

& Electroverse can not get the tariff correct at Chargers administered by Charge Place Scotland.

............

I see that the HMRC have changed the AFC on electric cars to 7 pence from 1st September.

...........

Today as i hear about Energy Prices rising again next quarter i am pleased to got my tariff up till next July at 22.03 pence a kWh.

...........

Had the Smart Meter fitted today.

Car was at 90%. 100%-90% was 13 miles driven in town, 4 trips. It was 4 kWh to charge back to 100%, 

 

I only know one person with an actual company car which is a skoda nyak. He would get the 7p a mile I suppose. Have not seen he has a type 2 charger. Might have them where he works. His BIK is super low, £60 a month think he said. That will increase to £90 next year and then £120 year after that.

 

Most people get a car allowance and claim the 45p per mile I would have thought, for the first 10k miles and then withdraw their car until it resets on April 6th we would do in HMCE.

25 p per mile is only enough if you have a Dacia or the like IMO.

 

7 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Electricity (single charge rate) cap to rise by 9 9% in less than 40 days time.

 

Gas price to rise by 14%, 

Only if you haven't fixed your tariff.

Maybe Charge Place Scotland will take some money from me this month, then again maybe not.

They really are a crap set up.

But better money in my pocket until needed to pay them.   Still no reply about the £15 charges that should be cancelled though. (Pity i can not just not use them and cancel the DD.)

Different from the Utilities that think you should sit in credit with them.

6 minutes ago, moley said:

Only if you haven't fixed your tariff.

 

Don't think companies do fixed rate on these EV tariffs which are charging well less than 10 per kwh and probably will be in Q4, we tend not to hear until mid last month of the quarter.

 

I think there might be capped rates for dual tariffs like Economy 7, 10 but they are not in the same league for cheapness as Octopus Go and intelligent Go and a couple of other similar tariff to those.

 

3 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Disagreeing is okay, I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm just saying UK public have an obsession with cars and it's not sustainable. Mindset need changing.

That obsession with cars has largely been driven by governments and the lack of joined thinking. When I worked on the buses, they used carry large posters on the back of them saying something along the lines of "its me or upto 70 cars, which would you rather have" Also there was some hard effort put into the timetables to ensure that when the trains pulled into the station from London, as many of the local bus services were due to arrive about the same time at the station in order to take the commuters onwards to their homes. That does not happen any more. 

 

The buses when privatised almost immediately started switching to OMO buses (One Man Operated buses) so that then meant that buses spend more time stationary at the stops as the driver took fares and as @skomaz said rival buses would block others in at stops in an attempt to scoop up the others passengers and make more profit. The government sold it to the public as giving the consumer greater choice and a better service etc, (now where have I heard similar before), when in reality it was the reverse, services chopped, fare rises and poorer bus services and poorly maintained buses as well, not to mention increased traffic jams as a result of the loss of bus conductors took its toll.

When I was working on the buses, my estate was on the very edge of town and at peak periods mornings, lunchtimes and evening when people finished work and headed home it was very common to see 3 or 4 of the double-decker buses in convoy from the train station to my estate, full of passengers, 4 time an hour, each bus could carry up to 80 people. 

 

Compare the with the buses we have these days 3 times an hour and a further 3 large estates have been built after mine and the bus also goes onto the large hospital at the very edge of the city and it is these small single deckers which are never even anywhere near half full. 

 

 

And this video shows one of them running from my Skoda dealer into the city centre, with a handful of people on board.

 

So tell me again just how buses are the answer, and who was it that drove people into car ownership, and who is it that now wants to separate us from our cars?

Edited 23 August, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

^^^^ England.

Scotland has similar but different, and cities and towns is very different from rural.

As it is the Limit Timetables of trains in Scotland and the new announced price rises goes with Trains and Stations that get to places where there are no busses to onward travel.

Bus routes being cut around Scotland but very much so north of Perth. That is a big part of the UK. 

 

..................

The Great Divide. Home / Work place charging EV owners.

 I wonder if a Socialist Government or the Champagne Socialist Government the UK has might start to think the Haves are having it just a bit too good with off peak tariffs and special deals from some Utility Providers. 

Edited 23 August, 20241 yr by Ootohere