the truth about electric cars

[J.R.]

3 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

It is clearly a single phase supply seeing as it is 13A plug fitted and based on 11kw then the cable and more worryingly, the cable feeding that 13A socket is actually (if the charger is being used at maximum power) is over running the cable at 3.7 times its rating, at full power it is going to get very warm to the touch. 

 

Even I in my current naivety of EV's understand that Roots vehicle has a built in 11kw charger but when a Granny Cable is used the charging will be limited to 10 amps, you claim to be a highly knowledgeably Electrical and Electronics Engineer with decades of experience but your postings often lack common sense, did you even read what he wrote?

 

1 hour ago, Rooted said:

plugged into my 3 pin wall socket & outdoor extension cable.

Max 10 amp.

 

9 kWh  taking 3 hours 41 mins.

25kWh   "         10 hours 59 min.

28kWh   "         11 hours 58 min. 

 

[Ootohere]

@Graham Butcher  You are off on a tangent.

 

7 kw or 11 kW charging to the car is from a 7, 11, 22 or 43 kW charger with a Type 2 suitable 11 / 22 kW cable.

 

The GRANNY cable providing power for charging is not even 2 kW charging with the onboard charger. 

[Graham Butcher]

Your assumption on the 3 phase is correct as to the CT, I take it as current transformers but I can't see why you need those, or indeed any data connections, it makes zero sense to me. 

[Stonekeeper]

8 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Well, if you have a look at the following website, Cable Size Calculator | Find the size of your Wire/Cable you can enter the various parameters and do your own cable calcs, but I based in on the plug in cable from socket to car being 5 metres in length. It is clearly a single phase supply seeing as it is 13A plug fitted and based on 11kw then the cable and more worryingly, the cable feeding that 13A socket is actually (if the charger is being used at maximum power) is over running the cable at 3.7 times its rating, at full power it is going to get very warm to the touch. 

 

The table below is based on the highest allowable voltage drop of 5% and you can see that it comes out at 47.73A for the cable. Then you also have to add in the total length of the cable the length of cable from the socket to the fuse or MCB which makes it worse.

 

OK, assume your house has a ring main circuit for the power sockets, it means that the total power available is going to be around 32A, but that weatherproof socket will on a spur and fed with 2.5mm cable and you can see from the attached it needs 4mm.

 

 

 

I think i have read that the maximum amperage for single phase household electricity supply is 100 amps but that would be for the whole house An electric shower can now be 40amp, so if you had a 7kw wall point for the car 32 amp. There is talk of banning gas for heating A heat pump can need up to 14kw (65amp?) and if they do that for cooking? we are up to a potential 140amp just for three events. What effect i wonder is this going to have for the national grid in planning future supply to an estate of 100 houses

 

Converting a house to three phase electricity  would cost at least £3,000

[Graham Butcher]

41 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

Even I in my current naivety of EV's understand that Roots vehicle has a built in 11kw charger but when a Granny Cable is used the charging will be limited to 10 amps, you claim to be a highly knowledgeably Electrical and Electronics Engineer with decades of experience but your postings often lack common sense, did you even read what he wrote?

 

 

Yes I did read what he wrote and found it confusing as his photos depicted a granny cable and his chart seemed to indicate a maximum of 3kwh capability per hour which is well within the rating of a 13a socket, but 11kw is not. I just revisited Rooted posting and I see that he has now added another 3 photos. When I compiled my response he was only showing the charging lead and his car plugged in, just 2 photos and hence my concern, so yes I am what I claim to be but can only re-act to the information available at the time.

Edited 23 March by Graham Butcher

[Stonekeeper]

15 minutes ago, Rooted said:

@Graham Butcher  You are off on a tangent.

 

7 kw or 11 kW charging to the car is from a 7, 11, 22 or 43 kW charger with a Type 2 suitable 11 / 22 kW cable.

 

The GRANNY cable providing power for charging is not even 2 kW charging with the onboard charger. 

 

 

Is 2kw equal to around 8mile an hour?

[J.R.]

9 hours ago, @Lee said:

 

Forgive me if I've mistaken you but I was of the belief that your next car would be a Skoda Roomster.

Have you changed your mind?

There's a lot of retro EV conversion places popping up but I've never seen an EV Roomster. Maybe you could lead the way. 

 

Future vehicle not next vehicle, that said I intended keeping the Yeti forever or until I moved on to an old EV but the Roomster is looking more and more suited to my next few years after the main groundworks are done as I currently need the 4x4 and ability to tow several tons of aggregate from the quarry and to dispose of soil and rubble using the tipping trailer.

 

But for living in France I would be converting a Roomster to EV power right away, but here even changing a steering wheel is pretty much impossible hence why a Frenchman of my age has an orgasm when they see a MK1 Escort with bubble arches and Carlos Fandango wheels!

[Ootohere]

@Stonekeeper 

 

2 kW would only equate to 8 miles an hour if the car gets or has been getting 4 miles a kWh. 

 Since i got 3.1 miles a kWh yesterday and maybe i will today then it would be 6.2 mile an hour.   

12 hours 87 miles.

 

28 kWh / 12 hours.   

 

  So that will be 2.3 kW an hour is it. 

But then 28 kW taken in the car but it might be 32 kWh that is used from the house. 

 

PS

Last night.    added 83 miles guesstimate, 

 

Started with 23%, 22 miles range.  Fully Charged 100%, 105 miles.   Near 7 miles an hour. 

When unplugged 104 miles. 28kWh / 11h 58 minutes. @ 22 pence a kWh.   Actually 33 kWh electricity used & to pay for.

Edited 23 March by Rooted

[J.R.]

7 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

 

I think i have read that the maximum amperage for single phase household electricity supply is 100 amps but that would be for the whole house An electric shower can now be 40amp, so if you had a 7kw wall point for the car 32 amp. There is talk of banning gas for heating A heat pump can need up to 14kw (65amp?) and if they do that for cooking? we are up to a potential 140amp just for three events. What effect i wonder is this going to have for the national grid in planning future supply to an estate of 100 houses

 

Converting a house to three phase electricity  would cost at least £3,000

 

Where do you get that idea from, you can use all the existing circuits and a standard fuseboard the only additional component is a 3phase residual current device, the individual phases being protected with their own standard single phase RCD's and circuit breakers, you only run 3 phase wiring to the new circuits like the heat pump and EV charger, everything else remains the same. A standard 2 or 3 row fuseboard can be configured for single or 3 phase, granted our fuseboards (tableau électrique) tend to be much bigger than yours as we have far more circuit protection and all circuit isolation is double pole.

 

I could request a 12 or 15KVA 3 phase supply and ERDF would come and replace the 2 wire overhead cable witha  4 wire one, the Linky meter with a 3 phase one and the 650ma single phase main circuit breaker with a 3 phase one, it would cost me €140 and be done within a month.

[J.R.]

11 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

 

Is 2kw equal to around 8mile an hour?

 

Mon Dieu! I do double that on my pushbike!

[Stonekeeper]

37 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

Mon Dieu! I do double that on my pushbike!

 

8 mile an hour was the charging rate.

 

You are free to use the 2kw in 8 minutes on the motorway

[Graham Butcher]

People with home chargers need to check this with some urgency and make sure if their home installation actually complies or not. The guy in this video is a professional installer of chargers and has passed all of his training courses and only to be informed after a few years that some of the installations do not comply with the regulations, it is it seems a bit of a minefield.

 

 

[J.R.]

1 hour ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

8 mile an hour was the charging rate.

 

You are free to use the 2kw in 8 minutes on the motorway

 

I know, it was a failed attempt at a joke!

[J.R.]

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

People with home chargers need to check this with some urgency and make sure if their home installation actually complies or not. The guy in this video is a professional installer of chargers and has passed all of his training courses and only to be informed after a few years that some of the installations do not comply with the regulations, it is it seems a bit of a minefield.

 

 

 

An electrician that does not keep up with the changes to the IEE regulations is not an electrician but a bod who has been on a day or few days manufacturers training course.

 

The UK regs are rubbish compared with what France had even 40 years ago, that is why our tableau électriques are so much bigger and expensive when populated, each row of breakers must be protected by a type A or type AC double pole RCD, none of this single pole MCBO rubbish, each circuit breaker has to be double pole, they manage that within a single module so there is no excuse for the single pole switching that the UK does, nowhere in our installations can you switch off a live without disconnecting the neutral, I admit that this was probably necessary in the first place by peoples stubborn refusal to respect polarity, my Hôtel had the live and neutral transposed to the incoming ERDF fuse and neutral blade from day 1, it predated double pole switching and had ceramic cartridge fuses, isolating a circuit or removing the fuse disconnected the neutral and left everything live and the only protection was the 650ma RCD in the main ERDF breaker.

 

Worse still when I bought it the power had been disconnected for years, EDF reconnected me and did not even check or realise the reversed polarity.

 

The other bad thing is that the manufacturers are refusing to warrant their equipment failure when it was not as a result of the non conformity to the regulations, the French are terrible for that, perhaps there is some liability on their part if a non conforming installation caused an electric shock from the supply cable but if that were true they would have contacted all their installers telling them to redo the installations.

[@Lee]

3 hours ago, J.R. said:

But for living in France I would be converting a Roomster to EV power right away, but here even changing a steering wheel is pretty much impossible hence why a Frenchman of my age has an orgasm when they see a MK1 Escort with bubble arches and Carlos Fandango wheels!

 

I take it from that that it's a PITA to modify vehicles in France? Here it's possible but they modifications have to meet strict criteria and insurance can get very expensive.
Come the bi-annual TuV (MoT) if the testers aren't happy they'll certainly let you know and you could find yourself walking home.

Edited 23 March by @Lee

[J.R.]

Impossible, "Tuning" here means a Kevmobile with a sunstrip and every other kind of stick on accessory, it 100% does not mean engine, suspension or brake system work to increase performance and roadholding, "tuned up/modified"  is préparation (verb) or préparé.

 

People with remapped vehicles have put them into the main dealers for a service or even recall and warranty work only to find they have reinstated the manufacturers map and are charging them €350 for the priveledge or they wont get their car back

Edited 23 March by J.R.

[Graham Butcher]

1 hour ago, J.R. said:

 

An electrician that does not keep up with the changes to the IEE regulations is not an electrician but a bod who has been on a day or few days manufacturers training course.

 

Agreed, but in his defence, the manufacturer had repeatedly stated no need for a Type A RDC upstream as the charger had one built in. Now I would have automatically installed one as the feed cable, if it gets damaged would have zero shock protection, but the cable from charger to car would have been protected by the internal protection.

 

Surely in this instance, the manufacturer should not have been doing training courses of any sort without having the content of the courses checked for correctness and approved.

[Winston_Woof]

6 hours ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

 

I think i have read that the maximum amperage for single phase household electricity supply is 100 amps but that would be for the whole house An electric shower can now be 40amp, so if you had a 7kw wall point for the car 32 amp. There is talk of banning gas for heating A heat pump can need up to 14kw (65amp?) and if they do that for cooking? we are up to a potential 140amp just for three events. What effect i wonder is this going to have for the national grid in planning future supply to an estate of 100 houses

 

Converting a house to three phase electricity  would cost at least £3,000

some (mainly older)  houses only have an 80Amp main fuse on the inbound

[J.R.]

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Now I would have automatically installed one as the feed cable, if it gets damaged would have zero shock protection,

 

Not to mention the termination inside the outside charging unit.

 

Its time the UK got its act together and ensured that all electrical circuits are protected, that fuseboards have multiple RCD's including type A and type AC, then maybe it might be tolerable for unqualified people who have been on a short manufacturers indoctrination training course to make mains connections to exterior equipment.

 

If there had been a single electrician on any one of the training courses or even a competent thinking person they would have challenged the tutor who will not have been qualified himself.

[J.R.]

7 hours ago, Stonekeeper said:

A heat pump can need up to 14kw (65amp?) and if they do that for cooking?

 

Heat pump power ratings are normally expressed as the output so you have to divide by the COP (if its to be believed) to arrive the input current, I have never heard of one used for cooking.

 

If households do start reaching their current limitations do not worry, mainland Europe is decades ahead of you because the maximum a household can have even a chateau on a single phase supply is 12kva = 52 amps, din rail mounted délesteurs (load shedding relays) are commonly fitted which selectively cut off electric heating, hot water etc when something like a kettle takes the current to the assigned limit.

 

The smart meters cut the current before the main fuse would blow, I'm pretty sure the UK ones will have that functionality, less desirable for the consumer is that the energy supplier can remotely cut you off or reduce your current to 3kw if you are in arrears or there is a billing dispute, that functionality if agreed by law statute can also be used to limit all or certain households supplied current if the grid reaches capacity, France is doing a trial which means it is going to happen, they are just going through the motions.

Edited 23 March by J.R.

[cheezemonkhai]

23 hours ago, J.R. said:

 

The cabling side of things I am completely familiar with although some of your acronyms mean nothing to me:

 

3PH - 3 phase?

 

CT clamps??????????

 

2CT, 4CT clamps?

 

I think I am correct in the first oine as you speak of 3xL + N + E, I am not trying to create a rapid high speed charging station for the public but simply want to charge my own EV in the future overnight like Root but with a dedicated higher ampere circuit, our plug circuits are 20 amp anyway and the commercially available single phase charge points are 3.7 and 7.4 kw.

 

No way do I want to go to a 3 phase supply, the property had this when I bought it but overcurrent on one phase results in all 3 phases being tripped, I had 9kva Triphasé which would trip at 3kw on one phase, now I have 6KVA Monophasé which has a much lower standing charge and double the tripping current, I can go up to 9KVA (at a higher standing charge) on the existing overhead wiring, they will change it FOC to larger coductors if I choose to go to the maximum monophasé supply of 12KVA, they replaced the cables a year ago when I went from 3 phase to single phase.

 

Both you and Winston Woof advocate having Ethernet cabling, I have the same question for you both that I asked earlier, why would I need or have to have data communications to put a battery on charge overnight?

 

Who is it communicating with? The power company or me? If the latter I cant see any reason why I would want to be disturbed but maybe I am missing something.

Your assumption are correct.

 

Addressing your questions, I suggest running that 3 x L cable and a cat6 because it covers all eventualities and if I live was damaged on a single phase install you have a spare. Lifting the floor is the expensive and messy but vs an extra few £/€ per M. (You could even connect a house battery or a solar inverter on the 2 spares with correct markings.)

 

So 3 phase cable is more about never needing to dig it up again.

 

CT - At lease one is required by many chargers so they can monitor the pull from the grid. Many won’t charge without this as it’s a safety feature.

 

If you were to add a battery, solar or similar you’d need a clamp to measure those. Not saying you will, but we’re back to cost of cable vs work.

 

Ethernet cable… it’s cheap and many chargers take software updates or you can set/monitor them to only charge In discount periods. WiFi is often unreliable in remote locations, so why chance it.

 

Essentially if you run 3L+B+E with comms and an additional cat6 cable, no currently possible proposal would require you to dig it up and add to or replace it.

 

I’m more a do it once, don’t have the cost/mess of redoing it mindset.

 

 

Edited 24 March by cheezemonkhai

[cheezemonkhai]

23 hours ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

 

I think i have read that the maximum amperage for single phase household electricity supply is 100 amps but that would be for the whole house An electric shower can now be 40amp, so if you had a 7kw wall point for the car 32 amp. There is talk of banning gas for heating A heat pump can need up to 14kw (65amp?) and if they do that for cooking? we are up to a potential 140amp just for three events. What effect i wonder is this going to have for the national grid in planning future supply to an estate of 100 houses

 

Converting a house to three phase electricity  would cost at least £3,000

On new build estates many are 3Ph or have the three phases run right up to a break out only a few meter from the properties.  I think there might be a plan to move properties to 3Ph 60A or 80A

[cheezemonkhai]

18 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Agreed, but in his defence, the manufacturer had repeatedly stated no need for a Type A RDC upstream as the charger had one built in. Now I would have automatically installed one as the feed cable, if it gets damaged would have zero shock protection, but the cable from charger to car would have been protected by the internal protection.

 

Surely in this instance, the manufacturer should not have been doing training courses of any sort without having the content of the courses checked for correctness and approved.

Surely you’d use armoured cable and RCBO or if the device has an RCD built in an MCB or better still an RCBO with suitable delay?

 

Edit: To be fair to the guy, I do seem to remember documentation saying something along the lines of built in so you should use an MCB some time back.

Edited 24 March by cheezemonkhai

[Graham Butcher]

7 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

Surely you’d use armoured cable and RCBO or if the device has an RCD built in an MCB or better still an RCBO with suitable delay?

 

Edit: To be fair to the guy, I do seem to remember documentation saying something along the lines of built in so you should use an MCB some time back.

That is what I'd have expected as well. This person is not a nobody but is a professional electrical contractor who specialises in car chargers and you would expect the manufacturer's to be giving out factual training and guidance in full compliance with regulations. 

[Graham Butcher]

31 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

On new build estates many are 3Ph or have the three phases run right up to a break out only a few meter from the properties.  I think there might be a plan to move properties to 3Ph 60A or 80A

I'm not sure if that will ever happen in domestic dwellings as there exists the possibility of having 2 or more phases within the same room even at adjacent aplliances/switches etc. It always used to be the case that where where this occurred in situations where you'd normally only expect 230v to be present, you'd have add warning signage to make users aware of the extra danger. I doubt normal people would accept such signs in their house. Different dwellings are often on different phases to balance loadings as much as possible though. 

Edited 24 March by Graham Butcher