Ukraine - war ? UK only economic sanctions or military action too ? Is the Ukraine issue simple or complex ?

[@Lee]

8 minutes ago, xman said:

 

Ursula has composed a letter to send to Putin. It now has to go through the commission approval process and put to the vote where all members have to agree. Also needs translating into the several languages of the EU.  I believe they hope to have it approved before the end of this year, but may be delayed due to Covid, other pressing business such as the UK punishment program and an extended summer recess which starts next month.

 

 

I'd ask for a source for all that but seeing as it's all complete *******s I won't bother.

[xman]

Lee sense of humour fail yet again

[Ootohere]

@Lee Many a post in jest is nearer to the truth than the spin from nations or the EU.

Edited 12 February, 2022 by roottoot

[@Lee]

2 hours ago, roottoot said:

@Lee Many a post in jest is nearer to the truth than the spin from nations or the EU.

AFAIK the EU's imposing sanctions like many other countries.
From what I've seen Liz Truss is popping back and forth creating a bigger mess than needs be. See my post from Thursday at 18:00.
And let's not forget the many members of Cabinet and the Conservative party accepting money from Russia. I doubt they give it freely accepting nothing in return. 
London as well being one of, if not the biggest laundromats of Russian money.
Here's Truss being a Poundshop Thatcher  

Edited 12 February, 2022 by @Lee

[xman]

As usual lee on his anti government high horse again. Like listening to a broken record as the saying goes.

 

 

Edited 12 February, 2022 by xman

[@Lee]

20 minutes ago, xman said:

As usual lee on his anti government high horse again. Like listening to a broken record as the saying goes.

 

 

Call it what you like. It doesn't alter the facts. And don't forget there's now the son of a Russian spy in the Lords   
https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-report-donors-boris-johnson-conservative-party-2020-7
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-58711151
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/clean-up-london-laundromat-to-ease-growing-geopolitical-crisis-fz8hl6dnh
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8546531/Londongrad-laundromat-Putin-allies-used-London-wash-illicit-Russian-money-report-warns.html
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/21/london-is-a-laundromat-for-russias-dirty-money-uk-report-warns.html

Edited 12 February, 2022 by @Lee

[cheezemonkhai]

Considering people are having their lives affected by this far more than anything the EU or UK government can do (and that’s before any formal invasion or otherwise), I think it’s fair to remind people the thread is a Ukraine thread in roadside.

 

I’ve said it once before, but if this points scoring/bickering or dragging other contentious topics into discussion continues, then action will be taken.

[Ootohere]

All that Biden so the USA which is a Superpower can threaten Putin with is sanctions as there can not be World War 3.

 

The sanctions and actions that Russia can take against the EU / Ro Europe will hit the countries and populations hard as the Gas is stopped flowing.

Not that he will cut off Belarus  or Hungary and maybe Germany / Austria will be getting a special arrangement.

Not such a hit on the USA as to bother it's population. 

[@Lee]

53 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

Considering people are having their lives affected by this far more than anything the EU or UK government can do (and that’s before any formal invasion or otherwise), I think it’s fair to remind people the thread is a Ukraine thread in roadside.

 

I’ve said it once before, but if this points scoring/bickering or dragging other contentious topics into discussion continues, then action will be taken.

I'm more than aware of what this thread is about if that's directed at me. I'm not sure enough people are aware of the Geopolitics and large sums of money that are involved behind some decisions and posturing on the global stage. IMO Liz Truss is one of them.

I'm also more than aware of what Putin invading Ukraine could potentially mean.  Knowing a few Ukrainians and having Ukrainian neighbours gives one some insight.

 

Just double checked the past two pages. I'm comfortable I never mentioned the EU or tried some OT 'humour' in Roadside.

Edited 13 February, 2022 by @Lee

[xman]

Sadly it seems that Putin holds all the cards and is and has been playing the long game very wisely.

 

He visited Beijing last week, not to have a jolly at the Olympics, I believe he found it quite boring and fell asleep, but to finalise a strategic and trade agreement with President Xi of China. Among many things agreed was mutual agreement on territorial sovereignty, Russia recognises China's claim on Taiwan, and China recognises Russian claims on Crimea and no doubt other territories. Mutual cooperation on a wide range of issues.

 

Putin agreed to significantly increase the supply of gas, needed for China's booming economy and their move toward a green economy.

 

Think about that for a moment. What that might mean for Europe.

 

At the same time, China has agreed to a massive financial support package for Argentina and has given full recognition to the Argentinian government's territorial claim on the Malvinas and that the UK are illegally occupying them.

 

Convenient timing?

 

Gas, coal, oil are all things that Russia can and will control to exert economic and political pain in Europe. Putin knows virtually all Western leaders are in a pickle domestically and are desperately looking for quick and easy ways to boost their popularity at home.

 

What better way than try to impress through the media. The grand diplomat (Macron) maybe or do a Margaret Thatcher (Boris) remember how she went from zero to hero over the Falklands? Maybe time to start rewriting one of Winston's famous speeches...

 

But when push comes to shove, no-one will have the stomach or the resources to call Putins bluff. The West is in deep doo doo economically. No match militarily. Especially if China lends a hand.

 

Putin wants to see Europe and the US squirm and reassert his control over world matters, along with the new found friend China and the madman Bielorusian henchman Lukaszenko

 

Taiwan controls a massive percentage of the worlds chip making capacity (anyone still waiting for a new car?)

 

Ukraine is still a massive player in the world market for grain, steel and other material.

 

Putin knows there will be headlines, anger, shouting at the UN. But little else, look at Crimea.

 

Ukraine is a divided country, there is still widespread Russian sympathies particularly east of the Dnieper river and Russia will have done their homework and knows how easy or difficult it will be. Like he did with Crimea.

 

The EU will do nothing bar threaten some sanctions, so Russia won't be able to buy some German cars, except of course they are already made in Russia, oops.

 

In reply he'll say, ok, turn down the Gas, oil and coal and send it to China instead along with the grain from annexed parts of the Ukraine. Lets see if that changes minds.

 

Biden won't dare get involved militarily, as that would risk an immediate escalation to possibly WW

 

It will blow over quickly, Europe can't starve or freeze or stop the factories and power stations. And the US can't send whats needed by ship to fill the gap. Europe will have to meet Putin's demands, maybe not all at once, just trickle them in to keep the public from objecting too much. The EU is good at spin.

 

Russia has historically started major military invasions during past Olympic games. This may just be following tradition.

 

Feb 16 Wednesday sees a full moon in the Ukraine, and the time for optimum hard frozen ground conditions, needed to avoid armies getting bogged down like Hitler did during WW2.

 

As one diplomat said, Russia's position is what's theirs is theirs, everything else is open for negotiation.

 

I may be wrong though and sleepy Joe will pull the proverbial rabbit out the hat.

 

One thing I do note there is plenty of money being offered by the EU to help the Ukraine, appealling to their appetite for free stuff. Whether that makes matter better or worse I don't know.

 

I've rattled on for far too long now ....

[@Lee]

Everyone's entitled to their opinion I suppose. Even if it is laden with guesswork, speculation and borderline conspiracy theories.

And no sources. 

[J.R.]

Well it engaged me and got me thinking far more than any perpetual anti-UK government/Boris contributions.

[xman]

Correction to my previous post, I used the word invasions, it should have been interventions, but it was late at night when I posted..

 

Here is a little light reading for Lee

 

https://qz.com/1203504/2018-winter-olympics-russia-probably-wont-start-a-war-during-this-years-olympics/

[xman]

As I speculated earlier, at the 11th hour, the EU dominoes are starting to fall.

 

Olaf Scholz has appeared to rule out any prospect of Nato membership for Ukraine after talks with Vladimir Putin.

“The fact is that all involved know that Nato membership for Ukraine is not on the agenda,” the German chancellor said, in the clearest comments yet by a Western leader on the question.

 

One of Putins demands met.....

 

 

 

[@Lee]

42 minutes ago, xman said:

As I speculated earlier, at the 11th hour, the EU dominoes are starting to fall.

You speculated a lot in your post. If Russia had invaded when there's a full moon in Ukraine on Wednesday you could also have said 'As I speculated earlier'.  

 

We already knew NATO membership wasn't on the agenda. Olaf Scholz has just reiterated what we already know .

 

What was the source for your quote? I'm only asking as people want sources these days. A bummer I know but that's what some people want nowadays. 

[xman]

3 hours ago, @Lee said:

You speculated a lot in your post. If Russia had invaded when there's a full moon in Ukraine on Wednesday you could also have said 'As I speculated earlier'.  

 

We already knew NATO membership wasn't on the agenda. Olaf Scholz has just reiterated what we already know .

 

What was the source for your quote? I'm only asking as people want sources these days. A bummer I know but that's what some people want nowadays. 

 

Are you using the royal "we" Lee? It certainly sounds like it.

 

I was unaware that Nato had dismissed any talk of membership when only the previous day Ukraine's foreign minister was talking about the need to seek membership.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/14/ukraine-quashes-suggestion-it-could-drop-nato-plans-to-avoid-war-with-russia-putin

 

It looks like Herr Scholz has taken it upon himself to talk for Nato, or is it the EU and its 26 member countries or perhaps just Germany?

 

There is definitely a full moon in rhe Ukraine tonight but I didn't speculate there would be an invasion or as I later corrected the term, an intervention, which is not the d

same thing. I was merely adding some historical context.

 

What is it with you and your I'm always wiser than you attitude and your incessant need to put people down if you believe they have different politcal views than yourself.

 

Can nobody express an opinion without you giving a smart alec or hateful response.

 

The quote came from the telegraph which is paywalled so not much point in posting the link

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/02/15/russia-ukraine-crisis-putin-nato-boris-johnson-invasion-news/

 

And someone as smart as you could google the quote to find its source in a matter of seconds

 

Obviously you want to own this thread and control it, you are welcome to it. I don't have any reserves of courtesy left to discuss things with someone who never listens or responds courteously never mind the anti uk rants you seem to regularly go off on.

 

Some would call it trolling.

[@Lee]

11 hours ago, xman said:

 

Are you using the royal "we" Lee? It certainly sounds like it.

 

I was unaware that Nato had dismissed any talk of membership when only the previous day Ukraine's foreign minister was talking about the need to seek membership.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/14/ukraine-quashes-suggestion-it-could-drop-nato-plans-to-avoid-war-with-russia-putin

 

Ukraine and NATO have been in discussions for years but as yet they aren’t a member. I was unaware until I watched Newsnight this afternoon that in the past thirteen years, NATO has only admitted Monenegro and North Macedonia and the last big set of admittances was in 2004. That was said by Simon McDonald, head of the diplomatic service from 2010 – 2015. Kirsty Wark also used the Royal ‘we’ at the opening of the discussion. Basically ‘in talks about joining’ which could go on for many years to come.



It looks like Herr Scholz has taken it upon himself to talk for Nato, or is it the EU and its 26 member countries or perhaps just Germany?

I strongly doubt Olaf Scholz said what he did without first clearing things with top brass at NATO/ other Heads of State

 

11 hours ago, xman said:

There is definitely a full moon in rhe Ukraine tonight but I didn't speculate there would be an invasion or as I later corrected the term, an intervention, which is not the d

same thing. I was merely adding some historical context.
 

Funny. Lately if I’ve added some historical content to a post, people complain about it. Not having a go at your point here.
 

 

11 hours ago, xman said:

What is it with you and your I'm always wiser than you attitude and your incessant need to put people down if you believe they have different politcal views than yourself.

 

 

What do you mean by your point “wiser than you attitude”? Can you point to something I’ve said that’s ‘put people down’. Recently on here, not by you I must add, I’ve been told to ‘shut up’ and to ‘stop being a ****’. My contributions to the site have been used as a way to try and attack me, again, not by you, by saying I don’t contribute anything helpful on numerous occasions. I’ve also had digs made at me simply because I now live in Germany rather than the UK. I recall one petty dig, something about a bloke on ‘Hamburger Strasse scratching his balls’ I think it was. Things cut both ways and I try not make the same error of ‘playing the man rather than the ball’. I can’t think of when I’ve attacked anyone on here without provocation but I’ll give as good as I get. Perhaps doing so is an error on my part and I should report comments rather than bite back.

 

 

Can nobody express an opinion without you giving a smart alec or hateful response.

 

Of course they can. I’m straight talking and say it as I see it – maybe sarcasticly sometimes I’ll admit.   I’m not a hateful person though and I can’t think of a time when I’ve given a ‘hateful’ response.

 

The quote came from the telegraph which is paywalled so not much point in posting the link

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/02/15/russia-ukraine-crisis-putin-nato-boris-johnson-invasion-news/

 

And someone as smart as you could google the quote to find its source in a matter of seconds

 

Thanks for the link. We’ve been told many times from various moderators that if you’re going to quote from something then a link must be provided. I didn’t make that rule nor did I request it as far as I remember. IIRC it started when one or two people who no longer post kept asking for links in some now closed topics.

 

Obviously you want to own this thread and control it, you are welcome to it. I don't have any reserves of courtesy left to discuss things with someone who never listens or responds courteously never mind the anti uk rants you seem to regularly go off on.

I have no interest in ‘owning or controlling’ threads. That’s not up to me. And as for ‘anti UK rants’, I’m not ‘anti UK at all. Far from it.
 

Some would call it trolling.

Trolling can go both ways. Some people like to jump into any topic or thread I’m on and have a dig.

Personal opinion – There seems to be a lot of anger in the UK at the moment. I can only guess as to the reasons why and perhaps my thoughts on that are best kept to myself but I bet they wouldn't be far off the mark.. As they say though, don’t shoot the messenger.

Apologies for the formatting error. Not sure how that happened.

Edited 16 February, 2022 by @Lee

[Ootohere]

@Leewhat leads you to the opinion that there is lots of anger in the UK and who exactly are these angry people, and what is their anger directed at?

Edited 16 February, 2022 by roottoot

[skomaz]

2 hours ago, roottoot said:

@Leewhat leads you to the opinion that there is lots of anger in the UK and who exactly are these angry people, and what is their anger directed at?

 

 

With you there George...   I'm not at all sure what anger he's on about? 

 

As for his comment re not attacking anyone without provocation he must have a selective memory...   As I recall being on the receiving end from a combination of him, lol and ryeman in one of the infamous 'B' threads

Edited 16 February, 2022 by skomaz

[J.R.]

There has been anger festering in another country since 2016.

[@Lee]

3 hours ago, roottoot said:

@Leewhat leads you to the opinion that there is lots of anger in the UK and who exactly are these angry people, and what is their anger directed at?

Like I said, George, it's probably for the best if I don't elaborate. 

I did say the other day though one person is 'soooo predictable'. I knew he wouldn't be able to not give a groan reaction. In fact I was so confident, I wrote my prediction down after posting. If you want the lottery numbers just ask  

[@Lee]

1 hour ago, skomaz said:

 

With you there George...   I'm not at all sure what anger he's on about? 

 

As for his comment re not attacking anyone without provocation he must have a selective memory...   As I recall being on the receiving end from a combination of him, lol and ryeman in one of the infamous 'B' threads

I admit I had to have a look so unhid your comment. Wow. You're going back a bit. That's over three, perhaps four years ago. 

I was happy to just leave things there and move on hence my reply to George but some people just have to keep things going.
@J.R. would you consider your reply 'helpful'? It's something you keep accusing me of not being. To me it came across as a pointless comment just to have yet another dig. FYI, I haven't been in Germany since 2016. You're about three years out.

I'll leave it there but I felt I had a right to reply. 

Edited 16 February, 2022 by @Lee

[skomaz]

8 minutes ago, @Lee said:

Like I said, George, it's probably for the best if I don't elaborate. 

I did say the other day though one person is 'soooo predictable'. I knew he wouldn't be able to not give a groan reaction. In fact I was so confident, I wrote my prediction down after posting. If you want the lottery numbers just ask  

 

Have a laugh instead 🤣

 

Like you I'm straight talking! 

Edited 16 February, 2022 by skomaz

[skomaz]

7 minutes ago, @Lee said:

I admit I had to have a look so unhid your comment. Wow. You're going back a bit. That's over three, perhaps four years ago. 

 

Probably yep...   But glad to see you finally acknowledge it👍

[@Lee]

8 minutes ago, skomaz said:

 

Probably yep...   But glad to see you finally acknowledge it👍

I acknowledge there was some sparring from all sides. I can't recall your discussing in them much to be honest. I recall Ryeman was hounded as he lived in Oz and lol-lol regularly gets called a champagne socialist or whatever. I remember the most prolific posters in those topics were myself, Moley, CWard, George, Gadgetman and a few others.

Like I said I say things as I see them. As a self described straight talking Yorkshireman I thought you'd appreciate that.