Central heating annual boiler servicing. Vital? or Cash cow?

[Jono]

 

So, what do you reckon, is an annual cursory inspection and wipe with a duster worth £60+, or is that money best being put to one side in case of a problem actually happening?

 

In much the same way as hairdressers recommending a cut every X weeks, and opticians always having brand new glasses, because of motivated reasoning and it being cheap for them , I reckon most heating engineers are going to look somber and say it's absolutely vital to avoid greater costs in the long run.

 

But what is the reality?

 

What if I said the boiler had an annual landlords gas safety check anyway, so the safety and inspection aspect was covered?

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

[cheezemonkhai]

Having seen the effects of a lucky escape from CO poisening due to a lack of correct servicing, I'd say if it involved gas or any other fuel combusion then it's essential. What saved the people in question was that the house was a draughty as anything student house and that the bedroom windows were open due to the time of year.

 

The service isn't about checking for parts that fail (not really), it's about cleaning the combusion areas, making sure there are no leaks and that everything is burning cleanly. If you're a landlord you have to do it by law.

 

If by your service, you mean an additional service plan where they check it (beyond the safety checks), then that's a purely budgetary consideration.

Eg, can you afford to sort it if something big goes wrong early on. If you can, then service plans are expensive and if you can't then they're probably a good investment.

 

Again however, I'd never ever skip a safety service.

[J.R.]

Can they actually be accessed on a sealed condensation boiler?

 

On my 60's or 70's boiler a service was a real service with cleaning, ash removal and adjustment of the burners, all I have ever seen these days is a gas detector inserted into the service port of the flue.

 

Granted they would check that the flue is connected, that the wall seal around it is intact, that it is not under a window or air vent of a habitable area.

 

I was doing work on the blown air heating system of the caravan that I recently bought to live in, first thing I did was to buy a C0 detector but I can now see that everything is sealed, the combustion chamber can be considered to be outside, other than the flue pipe becoming broken or disconnected I can't see any risk compared to gas heaters of old.

[Jono]

Cheezemonkhai, To avoid any confusion, Boiler "service" =/= "Landlord's gas safety check".

I'm not sure if you are conflating the two in your post.

 

I'm pondering if the "service" is worth doing in addition to the LGSC or not, or if it's just a cash-cow to reassure punters, 

 

Is saving the £600/decade for repairs and eventual replacement is a better use of money?

 

Must be said that anywhere I burn stuff has a working CO detector (three in the case of my house).

[MATT0693]

I stick with an annual service to make sure it is functioning as it should, the safety aspect is key, but if there is a failing part it could be costing more in energy use than needed and could save a huge bill.

[PetrolDave]

In a previous house we had a service contract with British Gas, every year the engineer would come and clean the burner area then comment that he really had nothing to do (one year he needed a new part that he said he couldn't get, and was very surprised when I said I had found it in stock .... at British Gas!) - then he would write his report and EVERY year say the Gas Regulations had changed so unless we changed (something different every year see below) he would then have to condemn the boiler.

 

I found the whole thing more an excuse for British Gas to rip me off and attempt to scare me into replacing a perfectly serviceable boiler, so I will never have a service contract with them again.

 

List:

- need access above the ceiling to the flue

- need the flue to be supported by rods not wires

- need a new outside 'basket'

 

EDIT: totally agree that CO detectors around the house are an absolute must have.

Edited 31 January, 2022 by PetrolDave

[cheezemonkhai]

We get a guy out, he cleans, replaces a combustion seal and gas checks.

 

That bit is £60 and non negotiable in my book.

 

The bit I am saying is non essential is the just in case a bit goes wrong service plans.

 

Not sure how you’re taking the landlord gas safety test as different to what I call the essential service as both require the gas analysis and leak testing etc.

 

Edit: 

 

Cant say I have a high opinion of some of the sales people ^H ^H I mean technicians employed by some of those companies mentioned by others.

Edited 31 January, 2022 by cheezemonkhai

[Jono]

2 hours ago, cheezemonkhai said:

The service isn't about checking for parts that fail (not really), it's about cleaning the combusion areas, making sure there are no leaks and that everything is burning cleanly. If you're a landlord you have to do it by law.

 It's this bit that seems confused to me. The LGSC does all this, but a "service" is extra,

 

 

The LGSC is ~£60 and seems to include all the "safety" aspects of a service .

 

So, if the boiler is working well and there are no basic external signs of a problem, or things an engineer would note as advisory or work-needed, what added value does the extra £60 for "service" on top of a LGSC get you exactly?

 

Out of interest I've just checked my boiler manual. For the annual service, It advocates checking the venturi and heat exchanger for debris and removing them - which may or may not get done as part of a LGSC?

Plus emptying the condensate sump (30 seconds, user accessible) and only cleaning the hot water filter if there is a problem. It doesn't even suggest checking the expansion vessel pressure unless there is a problem.

 

I really do suspect that if already doing a Landlords Gas Safety Check, a "service" on a modern boiler adds little benefit and likely only takes an extra 5 minutes to do!

 

Obviously this is motivated reasoning and I'm prepared to be convinced otherwise!

 

 

[cheezemonkhai]

2 hours ago, Jono said:

 It's this bit that seems confused to me. The LGSC does all this, but a "service" is extra,

 

 

The LGSC is ~£60 and seems to include all the "safety" aspects of a service .

 

So, if the boiler is working well and there are no basic external signs of a problem, or things an engineer would note as advisory or work-needed, what added value does the extra £60 for "service" on top of a LGSC get you exactly?

 

Out of interest I've just checked my boiler manual. For the annual service, It advocates checking the venturi and heat exchanger for debris and removing them - which may or may not get done as part of a LGSC?

Plus emptying the condensate sump (30 seconds, user accessible) and only cleaning the hot water filter if there is a problem. It doesn't even suggest checking the expansion vessel pressure unless there is a problem.

 

I really do suspect that if already doing a Landlords Gas Safety Check, a "service" on a modern boiler adds little benefit and likely only takes an extra 5 minutes to do!

 

Obviously this is motivated reasoning and I'm prepared to be convinced otherwise!

 

 

 

I'd ask what is included in the LGSC and what is included in ther service and see what extra's you're getting.

If the parts that are cleaned then you will get better performance/efficiency from your boiler, which at least in current times may save you a fair bit.

That plus any problems are identified earlier so you don't end up in a no heating situation.

 

I'd say the expansion pressure check is kind of important (IMHO), but I may just be being a stickler and our service person does this.

 

If all of the essential and safety bits are included in the LGSC then I see your confusion and if they're not that asks some questions about what's actually done in it.

[Jono]

 

I remembered that I knew a couple of heating engineers (other end of the country sadly) and picked their brains.

 

LGSC unlikely to open the sealed firebox as usually needs a new gasket afterwards (and you don't usually know what the boiler is gonna be), so no vacuuming out that space.

 

The details of a service is non-standard and varies in scope and cost and by engineer. Anywhere up to cleaning all filters and pumps, regreasing o-rings and replacing igniters after 5 or so years. Checking gas and water pressures, radiator temps, expansion vessel, checking the service log and looking for unexplained changes in values. Depending on scope is usually at the lower end of 30-90 min, quicker with LGSC.

 

I'm skeptical that unless something has *gone wrong* a service will do much for efficiency in the real-world and pay for itself.

 

When pressed about what he would do if it was his time and money, he suggested a big service, gaskets new igniters and so on ever 5 years but not much in the between-times unless a problem was evident from inspection.

 

That fits with my preexisting biases and worldview, so sounds about right to me...

[cheezemonkhai]

As long as the safety side of it is met, I think that’s the common Theme.

 

My view of £60 a year is that as well as the cleaning etc it includes safety checks fir the home.

 

That plus it’s not worth it for me to not have heating/hot water. 😂😂

[Jono]

18 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

That plus it’s not worth it for me to not have heating/hot water. 😂😂

 

Yeah I agree, especially if there is no LGSC on your home boiler. But the £60 isn't actually a guarantee that nothing will fail.

 

Yeah *maybe* they would spot something on the way out and replace preventatively (which would be an additional cost anyway, but most likely things will still break, and I'd argue that in most cases they would spot the same problem during a LGSC and advise a paid repair anyway.

 

 

[cheezemonkhai]

12 hours ago, Jono said:

 

Yeah I agree, especially if there is no LGSC on your home boiler. But the £60 isn't actually a guarantee that nothing will fail.

 

Yeah *maybe* they would spot something on the way out and replace preventatively (which would be an additional cost anyway, but most likely things will still break, and I'd argue that in most cases they would spot the same problem during a LGSC and advise a paid repair anyway.

 

 

They spotted a failing expansion tank (which was), plus if I get it serviced and it fails it’s not automatically my fault. Fail to service it however… 😂😂😂

[310golfr]

On 31/01/2022 at 17:29, Jono said:

 It's this bit that seems confused to me. The LGSC does all this, but a "service" is extra,

 

 

The LGSC is ~£60 and seems to include all the "safety" aspects of a service .

 

So, if the boiler is working well and there are no basic external signs of a problem, or things an engineer would note as advisory or work-needed, what added value does the extra £60 for "service" on top of a LGSC get you exactly?

 

Out of interest I've just checked my boiler manual. For the annual service, It advocates checking the venturi and heat exchanger for debris and removing them - which may or may not get done as part of a LGSC?

Plus emptying the condensate sump (30 seconds, user accessible) and only cleaning the hot water filter if there is a problem. It doesn't even suggest checking the expansion vessel pressure unless there is a problem.

 

I really do suspect that if already doing a Landlords Gas Safety Check, a "service" on a modern boiler adds little benefit and likely only takes an extra 5 minutes to do!

 

Obviously this is motivated reasoning and I'm prepared to be convinced otherwise!

 

 

The average lifespan of a modern combi is 10 - 12 years, 

nowadays new  boilers generally have long warranties out the box, typically 5 - 10 years and an annual service is a requirement to keep the warranty.

if like most landlords, you go with the 5 year warranty boiler,  servicing and lgsc for the first 5 years would then be virtually compulsory.

 

After that,  [ lgsc obviously required],  To answer your question, what should i do, is down to how you feel about risk and  the extra £££ required   ie  [ a bit like extended car warranties]

 

All modern boilers are $hee-ite nowadays,  but  some are more $hee-ite than others,  and as a gas engineer you get a feel for boilers,  what i do servicing wise depends on the boiler and whether the landlord is willing to pay extra,  some boilers need opened up every year or problems are likely,  but others can be left a bit longer, however some landlords dont want to listen , as too much ££££££  😂

 

ps as a landlord myself, i always install a boiler with a 10 year warranty in my rentals, yes it  costs extra to buy, but remember lgsc & servicing has no cost to me,  only my time  😁

 

 

[Jono]

On 01/02/2022 at 22:30, 310golfr said:

ps as a landlord myself, i always install a boiler with a 10 year warranty in my rentals, yes it  costs extra to buy, but remember lgsc & servicing has no cost to me,  only my time  😁

 

That's a really helpful post, thanks!

 

As you say, a lot of the ongoing costs are really small to you, so the maths is different.

 

 

Out of interest - which boilers do you rate as sensibly priced long-game workhorses? and which are Over-marketed crap? An extra £200 up front is only one repair during it's lifetime I guess.

 

 

I guess there is some kind of conflict of interests or self-protectionism where engineers are more prone to selling boilers that keep them in work, so Mfrs have an interest in making boilers and guarantee clauses appropriately.

 

[Rustynuts]

Any customer who gets an annual boiler service from me takes priority if / when it breaks down in the depths of winter. Customers who choose to call me out only when it breaks down sit at the end of the queue and invariably the bill is more than if the boiler had been serviced regularly.

[AnnoyingPentium]

We had a small gas leak at the back of the cooker that wouldn't have been picked up otherwise on the boiler's service.

[Jono]

13 hours ago, Rustynuts said:

Any customer who gets an annual boiler service from me takes priority if / when it breaks down in the depths of winter. Customers who choose to call me out only when it breaks down sit at the end of the queue and invariably the bill is more than if the boiler had been serviced regularly.

Yeah, I totally get that, you are going to prioritise them as more profitable customers and you know what you are walking into.

 

I get that the bill is going to be higher too, as you might price the job less favourably, more likely to need parts that might have been replaced routinely at the same time as a service etc.

 

I guess, my point still is, does this effect save more than the servicing costs over the lifespan of the boiler. We tend to count and remember the instances where something did go wrong better than when everything was fine.

 

I'm assuming you would discount one or both of a service and a LGSC when done together? 

[Rustynuts]

44 minutes ago, Jono said:

 

I'm assuming you would discount one or both of a service and a LGSC when done together? 

I only work on oil, so no safety certificate.

[Jono]

19 minutes ago, Rustynuts said:

I only work on oil, so no safety certificate.

 

I imagine they are a lot more sensitive to needing servicing too!

Debris in the burners etc.

 

[Rustynuts]

Yeah, oil filters need changing / cleaning, nozzle change, rubber hoses every 3 years (some types only 1 or 2 years), condensate traps cleaned, and soot deposits etc cleaned from heat exchangers,

[VWD]

Definately worth it, but then I'm a LA place ,where landlord has a statury duty to service. Last system wqas a Baxi, which had developed minor combustion problems . We had a CO2 detector in room where it was fitted and it showed no problems, but a service showed burner was developing problems, not bad enough to cause problems, but bad enough for the engineer to fail it. Shows the value of a bloke looking to prevent problems.  But the system has failings on use and common sense. At this time I had a gas fire fitted in lounge, and a ceiling fan/light. One engineer ( quite with in his rights IMHO) disconnected the fire as a safety risk as the fan could be run with fire on. The reason we had the fan was that in summer the lounge gets too hot. Problem s that regulations do ot allow fro common sense. Who would have a gas fire on in winter when the purpose of fan is to cool room.

Those inforcing regs have a hard time.

[Rustynuts]

Regulations cannot take common sense into account, because that changes things from anyone's perspective. The reason regulations are Draconian is because some idiot somewhere will have killed themselves with carbon monoxide poisoning by turning the fan on and pulling fumes back down an open chimney thereby increasing carbon dioxide in the room. This causes incomplete combustion and in turn produces carbon monoxide. And people do die as a result of just this sort of scenario unfortunately.

 

Common sense is unfortunately lacking in so many people these days, so regulation is required to be black & white.

[cheezemonkhai]

I see it that if it's serviced small things get picked up before they become big things.

Because you have a relationship with the gas engineer, then you get bumped up the queue as a regular customer.

 

It's cheaper because what is broken is likely to be a single part and not require as much checking to find out what it is.

Essentially you're pre-paying into the breakdown, by spending money on the service and picking things up whilst they are small and cheap.

 

When a big thing is starting to go and it's picked up in a service, you have time to get a good deal on a boiler, fit it in around other jobs and the house still has heating/hot water. When a big thing goes wrong, you've got nothing and it needs fixing now... well that's always going to cost more.

[EnterName]

On 31/01/2022 at 13:29, Jono said:

So, what do you reckon, is an annual cursory inspection and wipe with a duster worth £60+, or is that money best being put to one side in case of a problem actually happening?

I get mine serviced annually by the guy who installed it.

He cleans the Magnaclean, he pressure checks the gas supply, checks the burn is okay and generally makes sure it's running okay.

£60 well spent, IMO.