On 15/12/2022 at 21:45, MP1983 said:

What keeps me puzzled is the brilliantly idiotic idea to make an actively shifting active crossover.

Forgot to answer this one. There is no "actively shifting active crossover" here. Head unit only has 4 channels amp, so no active XO here. XO is actually only a cap on tweeter side, and mid-woofers act as full range speakers, which only adds to their crappiness.

Active XO for sure is used in Audi's with optional sound system, might also be in Canton, but am not 100% sure.

12 hours ago, Filternz said:

You lost me there. What speakers did you install, and do you have the basic (non-canton) system?

Can't remember if i mentioned it in this thread. I have Focal IS VW 165 in the front, and IS VW 155 in the back. With your Flax it should sound only better...

Yes, i have basic system (Columbus, but no Canton, 8 speakers).

12 hours ago, Filternz said:

And you're running an Axton DSP amp and sounds decent?

Yes, and it sounds very good. It's not high-end sound, but sounds very good.

12 hours ago, Filternz said:

Biggest issue with my setup is the factory HU doesn't seem to push any deep lows

I had that with factory speakers, but with Focals bass is deep enough for me, but this is based on my music taste (mostly rock and metal - usually bass guitar is the lowest frequency, which is around 40Hz, so seems my setup is playing it nicely).

12 hours ago, Filternz said:

and the mids from the front are so hollow and harsh sounding have the EQ at -9!!!

Nothing like that here, and i have everything set to 0 (both in HU and Axton).

12 hours ago, Filternz said:

House, pop, rap, all sound okay, anything with with a lot of clean vocals or rock music is bad.

Well, i don't know how house and rap sound, but pop, vocal music, rock and metal sound good in my case. Clear, selective sound, with good details, deep (enough) bass, very good vocals and very good sound stage.

12 hours ago, Filternz said:

I wonder if the Focal 4.320 AMP is just crap

I don't think it's crap. I think it's not connected and/or configured correctly.

12 hours ago, Filternz said:

and I need a better DSP amp

That would probably make things easier, expecially that basically all DSP amps have 4 channels of amplification, but 5 channels DSP, so that they can also serve active subwoofer.

12 hours ago, Filternz said:

I'm curious how the audio shop wired it up. The sub is active, and the ample is only 4 channels, so who knows where they took a feed for the amp form.

I'm also wondering about that. Would be good to check, as this MIGHT be your issue.

12 hours ago, Filternz said:

Might see if the AMP has any settings I can play with

Yes, it does. You can control gain (and this is one of the things i would check, based on your sound description), enable high pass and low pass filters and... i think that's it

But gain is definitely one thing to check.

Another thing you could check (but requires some work) is to set tweeter to -3dB in your crossover. But that depends on what do you mean by "harsh" sound?

Is it too much treble that is not pleasent? If so, than changing that XO setting might help. If also mid range is harsh, than it's probably something else. Might be wrong gain setting, or messed up wiring of sub.

 

10 hours ago, MP1983 said:

Why not remove the factory crossover (I`d leave a big cap there, 6.8-10uF should do fine for a 4 ohm tweeter) and instead use the DSP one in the amp? That should provide superior results (for one listening position)

Hard to say, as differences between amps can be rather big. Especially between cheap D-class amps and cheap AB-class amps. Also i'm also running rears from the same amp, so am kind 2 channels short for this kind of excersize 

Maybe in the future i'll work on that, and get another amp for rears, but for now i think i'll leave it. Noticed that biggest difference between Axton and HU is at low levels, and this is when i'm travelling with my family. So will keep it, and play with it a bit. Just need to get dummy load for Axton, so that HU doesn't complain about disconnected speakers, and run additional power cable for the amp (from fuse meant for Canton).

Edited 17 December, 20223 yr by Felix2021

12 hours ago, Felix2021 said:

Forgot to answer this one. There is no "actively shifting active crossover" here. Head unit only has 4 channels amp, so no active XO here. XO is actually only a cap on tweeter side, and mid-woofers act as full range speakers, which only adds to their crappiness.

Active XO for sure is used in Audi's with optional sound system, might also be in Canton, but am not 100% sure.

Felix, VW uses an active crossover in all of its cars that have tweeters - the cap is there for DC protection hence the big value of 10uF as its put not to interfere that much with the active crossover. The use of it is not so much to achieve good results as in an Audi (quoted above) but to add variable protection as the speakers are 20W only and sealed (in a ported enclosure or a horn the port/terminus controls the movement of the cone down to the tuning frequency) and the tweeters are 3/4" ones. So, when you turn up the volume - it shifts the crossover point higher and trims bass output (hence many users describing sound as changing). The active slopes used were measured in a diymobileaudio post concerning a vw passat if I remember correctly and were confirmed for many VW cars. Indeed. I have a Rigol DS1074Z (hacked to get to 150Mhz :D) but don`t want to fiddle with the car now as its too cold .

 

However, I am planning to do some work to the back speakers (replace the stock units with Peerless SLS 6.5" run as subs +/- (so single channel) and add a DSP amp, maybe either a Match DSP5 or DSP8) so can then take a sample of the signal.

Edited 18 December, 20223 yr by MP1983

2 hours ago, MP1983 said:

Felix, VW uses an active crossover in all of its cars that have tweeters

Interesting. So how are those speakers powered, since head unit only has 4 channels of amplification?

Answer is: in basic systems XO is passive, and tweeter and mid-woofer are powered from the same amp channel. In such case there's no way to use active XO.

Active XO is only used in some cars with optional audio system, which have more amplification channels.

 

2 hours ago, MP1983 said:

So, when you turn up the volume - it shifts the crossover point higher and trims bass output (hence many users describing sound as changing).

No. They are simply using EQ dependant on volume level. You can check link i have provided earlier, wich has examples or parametrization for MIB2.

Out of interest the current Octavia brochure doesn’t show any sound upgrade available - in fact it doesn’t mention the speaker system at all?

 

Im looking to join the long queue of VRS orders and interested to know the sound set up. 

There is Canton system for O4, but currently it's not available due to chip shortages. It was available for only about 1 year since car launch. At the moment Canton can only be ordered for Superb and Kodiaq.

So if you want upgrade, you need to do it on your own, as we did. Depending on the setup it can cost roughly the same (or a bit more) than Canton.

In my case it was more or less 20% more, but sounds much better than Canton to my ear.

On 18/12/2022 at 13:06, Felix2021 said:

Interesting. So how are those speakers powered, since head unit only has 4 channels of amplification?

 

Never thought of it as never got out the radio but looking at connector diagrams - you should be right. So if anything it would only protect low end (if applied). Indeed the guys at diymobileaudio had measured few cars but maybe these were stock DSP cars. I`d still hook it up maybe in spring to see if they have a low excursion transfer curve or not on this one as I plan on upgrading the rear and adding a small DSP package (for bass only).

Edited 8 January, 20233 yr by MP1983

1 hour ago, MP1983 said:

I`d still hook it up maybe in spring to see if they have a low excursion transfer curve or not on this one as I plan on upgrading the rear and adding a small DSP package (for bass only).

Haven't checked the rear, however looking at how my front Focals now sound with Axton A592DSP, i highly doubt there is such curve. To me it seems at least fronts are full range, maybe with some subsonic filter. By me ear currently i'm getting roughly 40Hz, maybe lower, with all settings flat (on infotaiment and amp DSP).

When installing the amp, did you run a separate power cable or just used the stock wiring? Any idea what the fuse on the stock unit is? I don`t want to run a separate power cable and there`s a tiny Pioneer GM-D1004 (which indeed sounds pretty decent) that runs directly from the hunit power.

No, didn't run it (yet).

Axton can be powered from plug&play ISO harness, taking power from car's Quadlock connector (same as head unit), OR using separate connection.

Haven't seen separate fuse for ISO harness power, separate power connector has own fuse, 20 amps.

Thing is, that when powering it from ISO, it has (according to spec) 50W per channel RMS. When powering it using separate connection however, it has 76W RMS (again - spec, cause it doesn't really sound right, if you think of 20A fuse - it would have to have nearly 100% efficiency, which is not possible even with class D). Additionally when powering it with separate power, it has a built-in step-up converter, which allows power amp to use higher supply voltage, but i don't know what that voltage is.

Anyway, there is no need for separate power, and it sounds really good (+has DSP).

But i'm plunning to run additional cable in some time. Will take power from fuxe box, from connector meant for Canton AMP. This way it will be a simple run inside of the vehicle.

 

Edit: Just checked. Stock head unit uses 20A fuse.

Edited 9 January, 20233 yr by Felix2021

Not sure if it will make that big of a difference. 26W in this case is 1.6db extra...That besides the facct with math - Pioneer claim the GM-D1004 to be 4x50W when the fuse they require is 15A. The only way to explain this is the old approach used by marketing departments of companies selling av receivers - 7x100W but  on the back it says consumption is max 230W for a class A/B. And then there was a tiny print somewhere in the booklet that this is output when a single channel is working. So maybe what they do here too.

Not expectng big difference, and it's not about this 1,6dB extra. Additional power can help with even better speaker control. Also in this case it's not only additional power, but also higher supply (hence output) voltage, which might make yet another small difference to sound quality.

Good thing is, that i have this option and it's rather simple, so why not? It will definitely not make things worse

About power handling, you might be right, although in the spec they do not say it's with one channel driven (which they should, if this is the case). In reality for me it makes little difference, i was rather just pointing it out

I'm anyway (for now at least) using sound focus for front seats, which means rear is much more quiet, hence not using same power as front. Besides i have never went past 2/3 of the scale, which is loud enough for me, so will probably never use full power of the amp.

Edited 14 January, 20233 yr by Felix2021

On 16/11/2022 at 21:58, Felix2021 said:

Have completed IS VW 165 installation in the front.

Difference is quite big. Bit better bass extension, better mid range and highs, much better decays/reverbs (like guitar strings) and details and better sound stage (git some depth to it). I like it.

That again makes me think, that @Filternz should review amp settings, as there has to be something wrong. Flax + amp should be MUCH better than stock, unless something is messed up.

 

Hello there. I am thinking to do the same think. I have some questions, I would appreciate it if you could answer them.
1st, the height of the factory speakers is about 48 mm. The height of the Focal IS VW 165 is approximately 38mm. Did you add extra spacers to reach 48mm?
2nd did the 165 fit normally? I ask because Focal recommends 155 at least for the Golf 8.

Edited 17 January, 20242 yr by Giannis20

On 17/01/2024 at 09:33, Giannis20 said:

1st, the height of the factory speakers is about 48 mm. The height of the Focal IS VW 165 is approximately 38mm. Did you add extra spacers to reach 48mm?

No, i haven't used any spacers, but i have added some self adhesive foam to the edges of the speakers, same way as in factory speakers, but it's it's a bit longer, so it still touches the door card.

On 17/01/2024 at 09:33, Giannis20 said:

2nd did the 165 fit normally? I ask because Focal recommends 155 at least for the Golf 8.

Yes, 165 fit without any problem. I had same doubts, so i got 155 and 165. Plan was to use 165 in the back, if they do not fit in the front. However it turned out, that 165 fit perfectly in the front, so now i have 155 in the back.

 

One note about Focal speakers: i recently found out (own experience) that they tend to "freeze" during heavy winter. They play very well, but seemingly the air gap in those speakers is not really suitable for car audio. Smaller air gap improves sound, but in case of low temps (recently we had -11 where i live) speaker stops working most probably due to voice coil shrinking and touching the magnet (my assumption, as it\t not related to water freezing). So something to consider, but you live in Greece, so you should have no problem  Guys living in Finland should avoid Focals 😁

8 minutes ago, Felix2021 said:

No, i haven't used any spacers, but i have added some self adhesive foam to the edges of the speakers, same way as in factory speakers, but it's it's a bit longer, so it still touches the door card.

Yes, 165 fit without any problem. I had same doubts, so i got 155 and 165. Plan was to use 165 in the back, if they do not fit in the front. However it turned out, that 165 fit perfectly in the front, so now i have 155 in the back.

 

One note about Focal speakers: i recently found out (own experience) that they tend to "freeze" during heavy winter. They play very well, but seemingly the air gap in those speakers is not really suitable for car audio. Smaller air gap improves sound, but in case of low temps (recently we had -11 where i live) speaker stops working most probably due to voice coil shrinking and touching the magnet (my assumption, as it\t not related to water freezing). So something to consider, but you live in Greece, so you should have no problem  Guys living in Finland should avoid Focals 😁

 

Thank you for answering. 

I will buy the IS 165's and install them myself since you say they fit perfectly.
I'm a little worried about the 10mm gap, but the solution you made is good and easy.
I also read that the plugs don't match, so I've already ordered matching ones for the Octavia to modify.
The cold doesn't bother me because, as you said, in Greece we don't have very low temperatures.

Step No1 done. I bought the kit.

 

On 19/01/2024 at 15:54, Felix2021 said:

Smaller air gap improves sound

😁

In what way?

On 09/03/2024 at 20:48, MP1983 said:

In what way?

I'm really not an expert on this, and dynamic speakers in all their theoretical simplicity are actually quite complicated...

I know for sure that smaller gap provides higher magnetic flux, thus increasing speaker efficiency, but also it's dumping so control. It can be of course to some extent compensated by using a bigger, stronger magnet.

In TS parameters air gap is directly impacting B, so magentic flux, which is part of Bl. Indirectly it impacts Qes.

You can check those parameters in Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiele/Small_parameters

Asked because it was a bit irrelevant. Airgap height is one thing that affects sound but air gap width is mostly dependent on coil used (i.e. up to four layer may require larger) and has little if any effect. Flux density has little effect on sound in conventional drivers besides if higher, ceteris paribus, making the driver more efficient and as a byproduct with higher Fs. Flux modulation is an entirely different animal and here saturating the gap (with a very strong magnet, pole plate design and usually underhung, one such driver is the JBL 2225H) or placing copper/aluminium rings (most used approach, Scanspeak, Peerless, SB Acoustics come to mind) aims to stabilize the field when the coil is moving hence modulating the flux (i.e, also visible on Klippel as BL curve).

Edited 12 March, 20242 yr by MP1983

18 hours ago, MP1983 said:

Flux density has little effect on sound in conventional drivers besides if higher, ceteris paribus, making the driver more efficient and as a byproduct with higher Fs.

Not only that, but also helps with better control of the speaker, thus providing better transients, tighter bass etc.

As said - you can overcome that by using stronger, bigger magnet, but if for any reason you cannot or don't want to do that, making a narrower gap makes sense.

But again - this is just my understanding. I'm not an expert on this, just know a bit more than nothing on this topic really

All i know for fact is that:

1. Focal's sound terrific at this price range

2. They tend to "freeze" when it's very cold

Knowing it's not the water freezing that's preventing speaker from playing, i can only assume it's because of the air gap. And considering they know how to design good speakers (and they do), i can only assume that they made this for a reason. But those are only my assumptions, you could call it "educated guess".

Finally i made the installation. 

 

the process is straightforward. 

For the mid-bass range speakers the only matter is the connector. 

 

 

 

I bought 2 connectors with 4 pins to make the installation easy. 

 

I removed the pins from the original connector and i istalled them in the new one. 

 

 

 

 

The new connector in its place:

 

 

 

And some sound insulation

 

       

 

 

Finally, I put a soft material around the speaker to fill the gap between the speaker and the door cover.

 

 

 

I still have no idea about the performance of the speakers. I'll work on them for a few days and then come back.

I was faced with a strange situation.
The subject of the speaker's positive and negative pole.
In the photo 1 is the electrical diagram, in the photo is the actual situation.

 

Photo 1

Photo2

 

it looks like there is a reverse connection from the factory. Unless the pole marking on the speaker is wrong. (it isn't i tested it)
I can't figure out what's going on.

That's interesting. Need to check my photos if it's also reversed polarity.

In some applications actually reversed polarity is done on purpose, however i don't think it's the case here.

 

After 3 days and almost 6 hours of operation I can say that I am disappointed with the sound result. The treble has almost disappeared and the sound in general is dull, without any tone quality or resolution. Something definitely went wrong. I don't know if it has to do with the polarity of the speakers or my installation.

Well, something definitely went wrong than. Have you connected cables as they were, or have you reversed the polarity when swapping the plugs?

Focal's are usually rather on the "bright" side of sound, so if you say you lack treble, something is not right.

3 hours ago, Felix2021 said:

Well, something definitely went wrong than. Have you connected cables as they were, or have you reversed the polarity when swapping the plugs?

Focal's are usually rather on the "bright" side of sound, so if you say you lack treble, something is not right.

 

I connected the cables exactly as they were. 

 

 

I didn't check the polarity on the tweeters, I didn't think there would be a problem, so i didn't have any photos. 

 

I should check the connections and reverse the polarity on the mid range speakers just to test the sound quality. I have to undo the door panels, i am not like it. 

Edited 21 March, 20242 yr by Giannis20