Inside Canton Amplifier

[spacelord]

I do not have time and need to search all your "comments". There was the same "conversation" on the previous audio topic I was involved in.

 

4 hours ago, numskull said:

I think I’ve been around a little longer than you, and I when I was in my mid 20’s, I used to goto many HiFi demonstrations and there was alway car HiFi demos too, built by companies like Pioneer, Alpine, Kenwood, Sharp, Blaupunkt, Technics and JVC, all of whom produced aftermarket HiFi. And yes, the sound was good…ish…. with the doors and boot open, so not that practical. So I do have a clue. 

So you must be an old man with no clue I'm not sure you are much older, but anyway, the technical progress didn't stop in your mid 20ies.

regarding your question about power - due to limited space the speakers are designed to work in small enclosures, so you need normally a little bit more power to operate. You can go loud, but mostly it is about impulse response. More power to control the membrane.

I'm curious, if your high quality efficient home speakers can produce significant output below 40 Hz and your 70ies amp doesn't have significant noise and distortion levels messing up the highs. Checked for the TEAC: 0.1% on 100mW and 0,25% on 30W like new. Don't know what's like 50 years later, but I bet, not better. The AMP I'm using has distortion level down to 0,0025%, and 106dB signal to noise level, it produces chrystal clear sound.

https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/af428c4b-c71c-442d-98a7-f9ad190f0b10/ve1300.11sp_ch.de.en.pdf

[spacelord]

35 minutes ago, brettikivi said:

at 800W and 3 8" subs? nah. At 85dB/W/m, no, really, no. Could run WinISD and do the math, 30 sec with an online calc says 115dB max.

exactly. The point is not being loud, but going deep, and this already on small signal level.

 

Excelent reply and explanations, by the way.

[ZacDaMan72]

22 hours ago, spacelord said:

In my opinion the issue is not the BT codec but the Canton amplifier. It has some compression/noise filter

I wonder what work can be done with this as it appears you can change compression per channel https://mqb-blog.com/en/2023/04/17/sound-settings-editor/

 

No clue if it works for Canton though

Edited 9 January by ZacDaMan72

[brettikivi]

1 hour ago, spacelord said:

exactly. The point is not being loud, but going deep, and this already on small signal level.

 

Excelent reply and explanations, by the way.

Danke! Muttersprachler haben hier generell 'nen Vorteil... aber es ist ja ein Bereich die ich relativ gut kenne. Hab' ja meine Hausaufgaben gemacht

 

1 hour ago, ZacDaMan72 said:

I wonder what work can be done with this as it appears you can change compression per channel https://mqb-blog.com/en/2023/04/17/sound-settings-editor/

 

No clue if it works for Canton though

This looks interesting. As said, I don't hear anything on my system that says there's a filter, but I may be wrong. Need to test thoroughly elsewhere and I don't have time for that right now.

I suspect it's intended as a "subsonic" to stop the sub bottoming out, as it's probably a ported enclosure and under tuning excursion is not well controlled. Tuning is likely IMO to be at 45-50Hz to get thump.. but there's cheating going on anyway. Carmody commented that tuning a speaker to have a mild hump at 60-70Hz makes it sound like there's more bass than there actually is, and oh look what those curves imply...

Are there any settings in VCDS that state "Canton" vs "normal"?

Edited 9 January by brettikivi

[numskull]

2 hours ago, spacelord said:

I do not have time and need to search all your "comments". There was the same "conversation" on the previous audio topic I was involved in

So that’ll be two then, not “always”. You really should be more specific before chucking insults around. 
 

2 hours ago, spacelord said:

So you must be an old man with no clue

Ahhh right. Go ahead with another classy insult. 
 

Unfortunately, specifications only ever tell half the story. Impulse response is pretty irrelevant as the speakers you’re using are so restricted in their operation due to their location. Additionally, you’re in a confined space with your head less than a metre from a speaker. My home speakers are renowned through the world. The Tannoys have a maximum load of just 30w, but they are highly efficient. I have no idea if they can produce “significant output below 40hz” because A. I don’t care and B. music in the real world, isn’t all about ground-moving bass. You’re obviously still in the upgrade insanity I was in when I was a kid in the ‘70’s, when I too was deeply impressed with spurious manufacturers specifications. Unfortunately, you’re so obstinate and naive to even consider that people with more practical life experience might actually know what they’re talking about. Seeya….

 

[spacelord]

well, what about this one? so there are already three discussions about sound in a car with your judgement on car hifi systems

 

1 hour ago, numskull said:

music in the real world, isn’t all about ground-moving bass.

okay, the lowest note on a grand piano is 27,5Hz, biggest pipe in a church organ is 8Hz. Real world.

[Wacholek]

7 hours ago, ZacDaMan72 said:

I wonder what work can be done with this as it appears you can change compression per channel https://mqb-blog.com/en/2023/04/17/sound-settings-editor/

 

No clue if it works for Canton though

That might be a game changer for all canton users. I will try to contact with the developer, but those mods are good only for the head-unit, not for canton/dyna audio

[Wacholek]

I just wonder, is it a real DPS is in canton amp? Or is it just a digital amplifier connected to the head unit which is the true DSP? That might be true since the equalizer is the same in MIB3 even without Canton. I do remember that in my Octavia III I was able to switch the head-unit to canon even when I did not have one. Only deference was lack of sound but all other options was left untouched.  

[brettikivi]

8 hours ago, numskull said:

Unfortunately, specifications only ever tell half the story.

*IF* we are talking science, they are the only story in town. Everything else is conjecture and hearsay. Like directional cables can't be proven and character and emotional conjecture can't easily be measured... they may be real, but they're personal and perceived.

 

Impulse response, Waterfall diagrams and reflections tell a very pretty story which we can start to fix with DSP or better installation positions. There's a reason all three of my cars have tweeters on the dash.. first, path lengths and second, directivity. I can read the diagrams with the falloff at 30 degrees off-axis. They're all silk tweeters, too, because as a a rule I prefer the way they sound. Doesn't mean I don't like the titanium ones in my home-built floorstanders.

 

Don't need bass?

Low E on a contrabass / double bass is 41Hz. Fundamentals are therefore 20.5 and 10.25Hz. without those, you're not getting the full picture. This is really clear with the above mentioned floorstanders. They weigh 40kg+ each side, they are tuned nicely but they simply can't drop below around 40Hz with authority. Not enough cone area and below tuning.

8 hours ago, numskull said:

Unfortunately, you’re so obstinate and naive to even consider that people with more practical life experience might actually know what they’re talking about. Seeya….

It's also unclear how many years I've been dealing with DSPs, speaker design and / or car hifi, whether I'm 30 or 50. Let's not talk about attaching external speakers to a ghettoblaster at age 15, eh? Or whether I've spent too much time dealing with monitoring, PA systems and the problems that come with live sound, never mind the big collection of caps and coils in the cellar.

You have your opinion and it differs from that of a couple of us, as noted in this particular thread.

 

[JR RS]

15 hours ago, Wacholek said:

I just wonder, is it a real DPS is in canton amp? Or is it just a digital amplifier connected to the head unit which is the true DSP? That might be true since the equalizer is the same in MIB3 even without Canton. I do remember that in my Octavia III I was able to switch the head-unit to canon even when I did not have one. Only deference was lack of sound but all other options was left untouched.  

 

Speaking of Canton DSP.....

 

[spacelord]

17 hours ago, Wacholek said:

I just wonder, is it a real DPS is in canton amp? Or is it just a digital amplifier connected to the head unit which is the true DSP? That might be true since the equalizer is the same in MIB3 even without Canton. I do remember that in my Octavia III I was able to switch the head-unit to canon even when I did not have one. Only deference was lack of sound but all other options was left untouched.  

Canton is a DSP amp. Previously you switched only the output of the MIB to the internal amplifier or the DSP.

With MIB2 and 2,5 this should be still possible. Users on MIB3 cannot switch for some reason as the connection is via Ethernet

[brettikivi]

9 hours ago, JR RS said:

 

Speaking of Canton DSP.....

 

this makes sense. My A2 gets a reindeer fur cover in the sunroof each winter and it changes the sound signature in the car significantly if it's there or no. If this works out with the car change, I'll maybe try to do some white noise tests at speed (with a passenger) to get some hard datapoints. But just turning the audio off should indicate if some active NC is being used, maybe. Or pulling a fuse.

[spacelord]

On 10/01/2024 at 22:37, brettikivi said:

reindeer fur cover in the sunroof each winter and it changes the sound signature in the car significantly if it's there or no.

Reindeer fur?? LOL

Fur sure it changes the sound. Reflections  and dampening. Nothing to do with noise cancelling. The sound ingeneer who designed the accoustic Canton setup in the Superb is a good friend of mine. He would know if there was any NC.

[brettikivi]

yep, it gets cold up here..

 

the concept of "noise cancellation", even "active noise cancellation" does bring a couple of interesting questions. First is the big one: what could that actually mean?

So, thinking about it, an "active noise cancellation" could just mean that the base noise of the car - has been recorded, inverted, and used with the speed compensation (for example) to change the noise profile that's being reproduced, to actively cancel - but without using a mic array to analyze in real time, just using a couple of standard profiles to improve NVH.

Truly active NC would be with a mic in the car (for example the mobile phone one) and actively inverting this and inserting it into the signal chain, rather than having this defined one time.

 

Anyways, as said, my switch is now a way off and might not happen - I will have to look into some other stuff anyway.

that sub doesn't do much, does it?

[spacelord]

Which one?

 

You cannot do NC on random noise even with mics. It would work only in ear/Headphones where the inverted signal can be produced in time when the noise is passing the sound actuator. In a car you'd like to foresee the noise, as the inverted  signal has also the traveltime to our ears so it is for predictable noise like engine sound.

[Paikesejanku]

Some cars actually have noise cancellation:

https://www.autobytel.com/10-cars-with-active-noise-cancellation

 

[spacelord]

If you read the article, every car there has quite the same:

 

"Of course, another strong contributor to a quiet cabin is the Active Noise Control. It generates noise-canceling sound from four door speakers and the subwoofer to reduce unpleasant engine harmonics."

 

 

Edited 13 January by spacelord

[Paikesejanku]

57 minutes ago, spacelord said:

If you read the article, every car there has quite the same:

 

"Of course, another strong contributor to a quiet cabin is the Active Noise Control. It generates noise-canceling sound from four door speakers and the subwoofer to reduce unpleasant engine harmonics."

 

 

And your problem is?

[spacelord]

No problem this is what i'm all the time talking about. ANC in the car is about engine noise

[Paikesejanku]

30 minutes ago, spacelord said:

No problem this is what i'm all the time talking about. ANC in the car is about engine noise

In Superb I find wheel road noise the loudest. 

[brettikivi]

one thing that could be done is a standard recording of road noise at, say, 80km/h. Invert and add to the input ahead of amplification. That's not just engine noise. Dirac-live seems like it would be capable of this.

Tempted to test convolving a phase-inverted standard 80km/h recording with a FLAC file and see what happens. But that's a bit silly at some levels.

 

ANC should be possible in real time for the car as well, I'm wondering why it hasn't been done? If Dirac live can do it, why isn't it in the car?

[Chazzy]

But a phase inverted signal looks the same as the original signal after a delay of half a cycle. Ie its the timing of the signal that matters otherwise you could end up with twice the noise.  (If the signals are in phase)

Lotus played with active noise cancelling back in the late 80's for the road cars. Never made it to production. 

[KoenG]

On 29/12/2023 at 20:09, Sanju said:

I have a Sportline - which does not come with the Canton system. It comes with an 8-speaker setup - 4 tweeters, 4 mid-range. Am exploring the following possibilities:

 

1. Cheaper option : Just swap out the OEM speakers with FOCAL VW IS 165s

2. More expensive but better experience ofcourse : Add a DSP [Match 5.4] + Subwoofer [Focal psb 200] + Replace OEM speakers with Focal VW IS 165s

 

Any thoughts or suggestions, specially for #1? How much of an audio experience enhancement do you think this will give over stock setup?

 

Rgds,

Sanju

woofers front are 8 Ohm, that would be no option to replace them with the Focals..