I think swapping them around is false economy.With the different suspension set-ups front and rear, the wear rate on the rears will go uo for a short period after a change round, as the wear pattern adjusts to the rear suspension set up. So, you could loose another 1mm to 1.5 mm straight away as this adjustment is effected. And during the adjustment period, you are going to have less grip on the backs. Also bear in mind, that, because of the pivot effect acting from the front to the rear of the car, rear suspension probably requires more resistance to sideways movement go ensure stability, so putting worn fronts on the rear axle may not be a good idea as the sidewalls of those will already have been bent out of shape by the heavier cornering forces on the front of FWD cars.

I do low mileage in my 100 BHP Fabia but still managed to get 50,000 out of a set of tyres using Continentals . When it came to the change, although there was still 4 - 4.5mm on the rears I got new tyres all round because by that time they were 8 years old. I have to say that my decision to change all the tyres was substantially motivated by my experience with the worn fronts, which even though they had 2.5mm - 3mm left on them still let go under moderate braking on a smooth tarmac surface and n light rain whilst I was approaching an uphill junction - as far as I coukd tell, a diesel spillage wasn't involved.

My driving experience, which also ncludes an Alfa Sud and Golf is that its more often than not, it is a slide at the front that promotes a consequential tail swing and that this is exacerbated by uneven application of the rear brakes caused by problems with the rear brake cylinders or brake force distribution system.

Whilst ABS and ESS will help to limit or prevent a tail swing, this result depends on both systems being fully operational and acting in concert. Hand-on-heart, and knowing how susceptible to faulting cylinder based hydraulics are, can anybody say that their brakes, particularly the rears, are in good working order, particularly under heavy braking, and even after a service ? Or that there are not people out there running around, unknowingly or otherwise, with Electronic braking assist systems on the blink.

Given the current litigous state of the public, the fitters have probably had it drilled into them to follow the manufacturers line.

Nick

Edited 19 June, 201213 yr by Clunkclick

I think the point is if, "you do not think", or "you do not believe" then do not do it!

If others do or have and have different experiences or beliefs then that surely is why life is full of choices, un-informed or informed choices.

If you ever work in a Tyre Fitting centre or 2 you will find out just what Training and Knowledge many 'Fitters get or have'.

Often they do not even know what a vehicle is or has.

Now with a Range Rover Evogue or Freelander, or a Yeti you have little idea if it is 4 WD, Part time 4WD or even just 2wd.

Same with an Octavia, it could be 2wd front or 4x4 part time and you can not always believe the badge.

Front Wheel Drive only,

Maybe an electric or mechanical LSD

Rear Wheel Drive only,

Maybe with a Mechanical LSD or Lockright or Spool.

Part Time All Wheel Drive, With Front Wheel drive and a part time select or automatic Rear drive at times,

Like a Yeti or Freelander.

Part Time All Wheel Drive ,

with Rear wheel drive and a part time select Front wheel drive like a Suzuki or Daihatsu.

Full Time All Wheel Drive, with a centre differential.

Full time All wheel drive with LSD's.

There is so many different 'Drivetrain' & gearbox or engine combinations, before even getting into tyre choices.

I certainly am happy to listen to the View of a 'Tyre Fitter' and if they work for a 'National' they might have to follow some Rules or Guidlines,

but if it is some guy that has not a clue about tyres or cars, then i think i would rather listen to the man down the pub.

Worth using specialist tyre suppliers and fitters if you need something special or someone that has knowledge, but then thats not guaranteed.

Life is like an Ashtray, full of Little Doups.

george

Edited 19 June, 201213 yr by sk4gw

So you were braking heavily in the wet while steering?

Just wondering if you've ever tried that in the dry in a car with perfectly good tyres and no ESP? It doesn't take standing water or bald tyres on the rear to spin a car with that method.

Yes - Have done that in the dry many times with no issues. Obviously not while on opposite lock, just a little bit of steering input.

Back wasn't actually breaking away, but you could feel it wanting to, well before the front felt like it was going to give.

Probably doesn't help having a RARB fitted on the stiffest setting.

I think swapping them around is false economy.With the different suspension set-ups front and rear, the wear rate on the rears will go uo for a short period after a change round, as the wear pattern adjusts to the rear suspension set up. So, you could loose another 1mm to 1.5 mm straight away as this adjustment is effected. And during the adjustment period, you are going to have less grip on the backs. Also bear in mind, that, because of the pivot effect acting from the front to the rear of the car, rear suspension probably requires more resistance to sideways movement go ensure stability, so putting worn fronts on the rear axle may not be a good idea as the sidewalls of those will already have been bent out of shape by the heavier cornering forces on the front of FWD cars.

Sorry mate, not buying any of that.

The most important thing with tyres is to know how they are going to react. If you have tyres that have little grip in the wet, then drive more carefully in the wet. If you have hard wearing long life tyres then don't expect them to grip like soft and sticky ones.

If you have soft and sticky fast-wearing tyres, then remember, they are only rubber and can't bend the laws of physics. Especially diagonal weight transfer.

Yes - Have done that in the dry many times with no issues. Obviously not while on opposite lock, just a little bit of steering input.

Back wasn't actually breaking away, but you could feel it wanting to, well before the front felt like it was going to give.

Probably doesn't help having a RARB fitted on the stiffest setting.

The only reason to fit a stiffer rear sway bar is to make the car oversteer more easily. If you've done that, then all the sideways action has already been bought and paid for. Hope you enjoy it when it arrives. Just don't blame it on the tyres if it all ends badly.

Edited 19 June, 201213 yr by Kiwibacon

Sorry mate, not buying any of that.

The most important thing with tyres is to know how they are going to react. If you have tyres that have little grip in the wet, then drive more carefully in the wet. If you have hard wearing long life tyres then don't expect them to grip like soft and sticky ones.

If you have soft and sticky fast-wearing tyres, then remember, they are only rubber and can't bend the laws of physics. Especially diagonal weight transfer.

Wasn't asking you to buy anything

Try driving a right-hand drive car on a left hand drive road system, as many of the UK do when on their annual continental holidays, and you'd soon appreciate the difference.

The majority of people on here are 2WD/ FWD. The average "Her-in-doors" won't know the difference between a steel belted radial and a Playtex girdle and probably won't be exploring the limits of adhesion (For tyres that is) whilst labouring under a subconscious desire to seek a tragic early death in a ditch.

Nick

Edited 19 June, 201213 yr by Clunkclick

Yes - Have done that in the dry many times with no issues. Obviously not while on opposite lock, just a little bit of steering input.

Back wasn't actually breaking away, but you could feel it wanting to, well before the front felt like it was going to give.

Probably doesn't help having a RARB fitted on the stiffest setting.

I'm sorry, not trying to get into a slagging match here but if your driving fast around Alston, crummock etc in the wet and breaking on corners it has nothing to do with the tyres or stiff suspension, it's driver inexperience and that's why your back end try trying to step out. I've grown up driving around crummock etc and I've never had my car 'stepping out'

Try driving a right-hand drive car on a left hand drive road system, as many of the UK do when on their annual continental holidays, and you'd soon appreciate the difference.

What has this got to do with anything? We're talking about best tyres on the front v best tyres on the rear.

I'm sorry, not trying to get into a slagging match here but if your driving fast around Alston, crummock etc in the wet and breaking on corners it has nothing to do with the tyres or stiff suspension, it's driver inexperience and that's why your back end try trying to step out. I've grown up driving around crummock etc and I've never had my car 'stepping out'

Yes I agree, but it's a fact that the tyres with the least grip will let go first if you go into a corner stupidly fast or swerve to avoid something.

If these are on the back, the back will step out easier.

If best tyres are on the rear, you'll tend to understeer.

Yes I agree, but it's a fact that the tyres with the least grip will let go first if you go into a corner stupidly fast or swerve to avoid something.

If these are on the back, the back will step out easier.

If best tyres are on the rear, you'll tend to understeer.

However the front tyres have thier traction traded off between steering, acceleration and breaking forces whereas the rear tyres don't and require less traction (hence why they wear less)

I swap mine about but that because I like to have all 4 tyres the same. I guess its all down to personal choice. The world would be boring place if we all did and thought the same.

On the subject of tyres why is it so hard to pick which to change to next? You read one review such as http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/2012-EVO-Max-Performance-Tyre-Test.htm and that will say tyre A is the best then another review will put tyre a as the worse and tyre b as the best.

However the front tyres have thier traction traded off between steering, acceleration and breaking forces whereas the rear tyres don't and require less traction (hence why they wear less)

But that's the whole point, the front can be controlled through several methods, but the back has nothing, give it the best grip so as not to lose it because you'll never get it back !!!!!

so putting worn fronts on the rear axle may not be a good idea as the sidewalls of those will already have been bent out of shape by the heavier cornering forces on the front of FWD cars.

Out of interest, what make of tyres have you had this happen to?

But that's the whole point, the front can be controlled through several methods, but the back has nothing, give it the best grip so as not to lose it because you'll never get it back !!!!!

I've always managed to correct oversteer, easyer in a RWD through. .

I swap mine about but that because I like to have all 4 tyres the same. I guess its all down to personal choice. The world would be boring place if we all did and thought the same.

On the subject of tyres why is it so hard to pick which to change to next? You read one review such as http://www.tyrerevie...e-Tyre-Test.htm and that will say tyre A is the best then another review will put tyre a as the worse and tyre b as the best.

As with most reviews, you dont always know if sponsorship has an influence. Like who owns the comparison sites for insurance etc...

I haven't met many tyre fitters who understand physics that well. My car, I make the decisions and I pay them to do what I want. I rotate my tyres to try and wear out a set evenly. This also involves swapping wheels from side to side which most tyre fitters also hate.

But if I don't rotate tyres, I have to replace them sooner. Which is where the tyre industry makes more money.

Been thinking a bout this.

So you're tyres arent directional or marked with OUTSIDE when you diagonally swap?

Yes I agree, but it's a fact that the tyres with the least grip will let go first if you go into a corner stupidly fast or swerve to avoid something.

If these are on the back, the back will step out easier.

If best tyres are on the rear, you'll tend to understeer.

Other than hydroplaning through standing water or being in gravel/mud/snow the depth of tread =/= grip.

Cars are setup from the factory to understeer, because it's safer for the average driver. Fitting a stiffer rear sway bar undoes this factory tune and tunes the car towards more oversteer.

As you have a stiffer rear sway bar on the stiffest setting and you brake into corners I am hoping you have the driving skill to correct over-steer.

The average driver doesn't think at all about limits of adhesion or where their car will go when it runs out of grip. Until it's too late, they have run out of grip and are sliding towards a car/pole/ditch.

Been thinking a bout this.

So you're tyres arent directional or marked with OUTSIDE when you diagonally swap?

Correct. The only directional tyres I have ever owned were offroad mud tyres. They don't do enough miles to wear out.

Other than hydroplaning through standing water or being in gravel/mud/snow the depth of tread =/= grip.

^^ is correct. tread depth has nothing to do with grip until it has standing water to deal with. In standing water, the tyres with the least tread will let go first. That is the only reason for putting the fresh tyres on the back.

Cars are setup from the factory to understeer

I really can't see manufactures setting a car up to understeer, not when they spend £'s reviewing very slight tweeks to try to eliminate understeer and provide the perfect handling. Audi are now even moving their engine's to try to overcome their understeer problems, they fit their press cars with wider front tyre's in order to try and hide the problem. BMW still aim for near 50/50 weight balance. Porsche still advise a full tank of fuel in the 911, but out if interest, which manufactures cars are set up to understeer?

I really can't see manufactures setting a car up to understeer, not when they spend £'s reviewing very slight tweeks to try to eliminate understeer and provide the perfect handling. Audi are now even moving their engine's to try to overcome their understeer problems, they fit their press cars with wider front tyre's in order to try and hide the problem. BMW still aim for near 50/50 weight balance. Porsche still advise a full tank of fuel in the 911, but out if interest, which manufactures cars are set up to understeer?

You're talking about performance cars.

"Normal" cars are setup to understeer rather than snap into oversteer as it's a much safer scenario for most drivers.

You're talking about performance cars.

"Normal" cars are setup to understeer rather than snap into oversteer as it's a much safer scenario for most drivers.

Audi & BMW make many none performance "normal" cars.

If a car is understeering, most normal drivers will either brake causing the rear to lift which may kick it into oversteer, or they will turn the wheel further onto a tighter lock, which will continue the undrsteer untill enough speed has been scrubbed off and then also may cause oversteer if they have not taken any lock off, or of course they may just close their eye's, either way manufacture's still make fine tweeks to eliminate understeer, half the time it's down to poor tyre's anyway, but what do I know. .

Audi & BMW make many none performance "normal" cars.

If a car is understeering, most normal drivers will either brake causing the rear to lift which may kick it into oversteer, or they will turn the wheel further onto a tighter lock, which will continue the undrsteer untill enough speed has been scrubbed off and then also may cause oversteer if they have not taken any lock off, or of course they may just close their eye's, either way manufacture's still make fine tweeks to eliminate understeer, half the time it's down to poor tyre's anyway, but what do I know. .

Audi and BMW make road cars sold to normal people. Same rules apply. They are tuned to understeer because it's bad press to be killing your customers.

It is very easy to retune the suspension to make the car more neutral or even oversteer, any motorsport suspension outfit can do this. But unless it's for a track car, it's dangerous.

Yep. Manufacturers do try not to have excessive understeer, but when the grip runs out they would rather have understeer than oversteer. So, even the likes of BMW and Porsche will set up the suspension on a road car so that the front lets go first when the limit is reached. It's much more predictable to deal with as you know where the car will go, and if you crash you will tend to hit nose first where all the crumple zones are and where the airbags will help you. If the back lets go first, you have a spin, and the car could go anywhere and crash at any angle, airbags are sod-all use if you go sideways into a tree.

With any decently balanced car, the driver can make it behave how he wants, it's not too hard to induce some oversteer in my Fabia. I'm not talking sliding the tail wildly, just a small slip to keep the car neutral. Used to do it with my first Octavia too, it's all about controlling the cars weight and loading up the right tyres at the right time.

UK National speed limit on a single carriageway is 60mph,

there are not many cars that can not get around a corner at 60mph or even 70 mph on the tyres that it comes fitted

with or tyres within the legal limit,

They will even get around a corner at 60 mph in the wet without requiring Advanced Driving skills.

Well a FWD car will mostly manage to get around a corner.

A dual carriageway that has a 70 MPH max limit is liable to have curves and bends that Car Tyres can handle in the dry quite safely at that type of speed..

This Understeer & Oversteer stuff is getting totally away from the majority of people requirement to run a Commuter or Family car safely up a road on a daily basis.

Sporty driving or more extreme styles of driving & the equipment set up and is surely a specialised thing to suit individuals choice rather than something you are having a Tyre Fitter @ Kwik Fit etc tell you what to do,

or somebody that does not know you from Adam or how you are going to drive.

george

That is true, the only concern at normal speeds is standing water.

& its amazing even if driving safely but caught out by an amount of surface water,

its not a drama in something like my Picanto on winter 195's

but something on cost a fortune tyres can get all scary.

I know how good my narrow tyres can be & how risky wider tyres i have used can be.

Always makes me watch the Sporty cars flying passed me on surfaces with a chance of an aquaplane as tho

the little car can not do any more.

I spotted 2 such cars in ditches last night in really heavy rain (Both local Boy racers, Mini Cooper S driven around by an 18 yo, & a Fast Civic)

& did not really think 'what a shame', just 'what ****s there dads will be annoyed and mum will blame the Roads Department',

glad they never took out somebody else.

george

Edited 22 June, 201213 yr by sk4gw

Yeah, people forget that really wide tyres are great for grip in the dry, but horrible for aquaplaning in the wet! A friend of mine was travelling down the motorway in heavy rain when he spotted a TVR coming up behind him. As they went round one of those long motorway bends, they hit a big patch of deeper water. The normal car went through it without any drama at all. The TVR spun off the motorway

Edited 22 June, 201213 yr by Mike Wrightson

Yeah, people forget that really wide tyres are great for grip in the dry, but horrible for aquaplaning in the wet! A friend of mine was travelling down the motorway in heavy rain when he spotted a TVR coming up behind him. As they went round one of those long motorway bends, they hit a big patch of deeper water. The normal car went through it without any drama at all. The TVR spun off the motorway

Those wide tyres are awful in the snow too. Years ago a classmates brother bought a brand new WRX with I think 18's and they took it skiing. They got stuck on the access road where 2wd family cars with normal tyres were driving past them.

IMO wide sticky tyres are only any good on clean, dry and warm tarmac. Skinny tyres are way under-rated.