Just won a Neuspeed RARB

[Golden]

Classic cut and paste responses...classic!

If you think they're cut and paste responses maybe you could find them on Google, couldn't be that hard if I just searched topics and found them?

Alternatively try pasting chunks of my text in Google, see if that works?

Shouting liar liar pants on fire with a smiley isn't really a good come back.

I really don't know how this thread degenerated into this when I only made a few relevant, helpful comments.

[demonufo]

Except for you were accusing everybody of potentially handing out dangerous advice, when in fact, EVERYBODY was erring very heavily on the side of caution.

[Golden]

I did go into it a little...

In this instance, the problem we have is a floppy as hell rear axle with p!$$ weak ends. These ends flex about because of the grip strangely caused by the tyres which are designed to, ooh, guess what, yup, that's right, GRIP. The hubs aren't stable, they are actually wobbling about causing the rear end to roll an awful lot because the body is constantly loading and unloading, especially when changing direction. As you know only too well (I hope) the rear bars primarily provide rigidity between these two axles massively reducing the flexing action towards each other. The next thing to happen as a result of this is the suspension loading less as a result of this action. Next thing is a reduction in rear grip because the car has loaded less, as the tyres aren't forced into the road as hard as a result, since they are now nicely in line (in comparison), and the walls aren't flexing as much either.

I see no point in making it any more detailed than that, since this has become nothing more than a p!SS!ng match, and you seem completely determined to make yourself look an even bigger ar$e than you have already.

The anti-roll bar is not an axle brace.

Look at how it mounts, on this Neuspeed, it's on circular bushes in the middle and bushed drop links on the end. Any lateral (sideways load) would simply cause the bar to move sideways in the bushes, there's nothing to stop it.

Stiffening the rear end doesn't decrease rear end grip, it improves front end grip. The stiffer end of a car will always break away first because the car pivots or yaws around it's center and the first wheel to lift and loose traction will be the inside wheel on the stiffest axle. Modern cars are designed with a fairly stiff front end in comparison to the rear to induce understeer as understeer is far more easily controlled by a mediocre driver. By fitting a stiffer rear bar you alter the handling balance, pushing it towards a neutral handling setup. A properly set up performance car should drift or slide equally on all four wheels in corner. This is the fastest set up but requires a far more aware or skilled driver, as either end could break away first. If you continued to stiffen the rear end you'd push the balance past neutral and start to induce oversteer. Great fun but requires a lot more skill to control than understeer which is why manufacturers build in understeer when they design suspension. It's also not the fastest way round a corner.

On a road car as well doing what I've mentioned above the anti-roll bar does exactly what the name suggests because it limits body roll. The reason for this is most productions cars do not have room for a suspension design that allows for minimal camber change when the body rolls. We all know that a tyre generates maximum grip when its surface is flat against the road, or to put it another way, when it's upright. If you look at this picture of an Alfa you can see that the outer wheel, doing most of the work, has gone way past upright, seriously reducing its grip.

If you wonder why manufacturers don't just fit stiffer springs to do the same things, it's because an anti-roll bar allows them to limit body roll but keep a much more acceptable ride quality. To limit body roll with springs (as they do with race cars) the ride would shake the fillings out of your teeth. An anti-roll bar only resists body roll when one wheel moves differently to the other, like when you're cornering. If the car goes over a rut in the road or over a sleeping policeman the bar simply moves up and down in its bushes, having no effect at all and giving a much softer ride.

I hope that all makes sense.

[Oet]

Except for you were accusing everybody of potentially handing out dangerous advice, when in fact, EVERYBODY was erring very heavily on the side of caution.

He seems to forget that..

[Guest BigJase88]

Cheers guy lots of good info

Stop arguing now you all know vastly more than i do

Briskoda is a happy place

[Oet]

If you think they're cut and paste responses maybe you could find them on Google, couldn't be that hard if I just searched topics and found them?

Alternatively try pasting chunks of my text in Google, see if that works?

Shouting liar liar pants on fire with a smiley isn't really a good come back.

I really don't know how this thread degenerated into this when I only made a few relevant, helpful comments.

You are assuming i care enough to do that...but i don't. it was just a cheap laugh tbh!

Irony is, i think you do know what you are talking about on the whole, its just your attitude and approach that sucks, thats why we are all flaming you...your 'i am right' attitude and posts, put most of our backs up!

[Oet]

Cheers guy lots of good info

Stop arguing now you all know vastly more than i do

Briskoda is a happy place

its your fault lol!

[Silver Bullet]

Cheers guy lots of good info

Stop arguing now you all know vastly more than i do

Briskoda is a happy place

+1

The thing I find weird is, (if the Brisky database is accurate), he joined in 31st July 2004, so why now??, ARBs seem to be a subject that surfaces on a regular basis?.I wouldnt respond to him anymore, just wish him well and goodnight Gracie.

I like many others trust empirical data gained by members practical experience, not just theoretical but opinions/feedback based on real events

.

NB: OET empty your mail box I tried to send you a message but its full

[Golden]

+1

The thing I find weird is, (if the Brisky database is accurate), he joined in 31st July 2004, so why now??, ARBs seem to be a subject that surfaces on a regular basis?.I wouldnt respond to him anymore, just wish him well and goodnight Gracie.

I like many others trust empirical data gained by members practical experience, not just theoretical but opinions/feedback based on real events

.

NB: OET empty your mail box I tried to send you a message but its full

I am a member of lots of different forums and sometimes I just read and don't post.

The fact that I belong to and read many different forums is why I felt I'd say something having read this thread.

On many, many occasions I've seen people make regrettable decisions based on forum recommendation. People mean well but sometimes a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing and those that know even less, trustingly follow suggestions and recommendations that aren't always suitable for their car.

In car tuning or modifying some things are a matter of opinion and some are just engineering fact. If something is fact I'll say so, if you just my opinion I'd also say so.

[Lofty79]

Aye but on here we know what we're talking aboot so you can be reassured, and read from the background again.

[Oet]

+1

The thing I find weird is, (if the Brisky database is accurate), he joined in 31st July 2004, so why now??, ARBs seem to be a subject that surfaces on a regular basis?.I wouldnt respond to him anymore, just wish him well and goodnight Gracie.

I like many others trust empirical data gained by members practical experience, not just theoretical but opinions/feedback based on real events

.

NB: OET empty your mail box I tried to send you a message but its full

just realised my freedom membership has run out, and am lazy so have a massive inbox full of mail, just deleted a LOAD! you can pm me now:>

Edited 11 January, 2013 by Oet

[Silver Bullet]

whooo hoo just sent you pm "it works" lol

[Oet]

whooo hoo just sent you pm "it works" lol

lol received:>

[Bowders1]

If you wonder why manufacturers don't just fit stiffer springs to do the same things, it's because an anti-roll bar allows them to limit body roll but keep a much more acceptable ride quality. To limit body roll with springs (as they do with race cars) the ride would shake the fillings out of your teeth. An anti-roll bar only resists body roll when one wheel moves differently to the other, like when you're cornering. If the car goes over a rut in the road or over a sleeping policeman the bar simply moves up and down in its bushes, having no effect at all and giving a much softer ride.

I hope that all makes sense.

"on messageboards? Anytime you notice a poster's inflated sense of intelligence and rationality, his next paragraph will always reveal explicitly that he's an engineer. You'll never miss them, they'll always let you know.

I did do a cut and paste here, sorry could not resist buddy.

You do speak factual information , and thank you for that it is all informative and I would agree with your points.

It was just the way you bounded in to a thread that put people out of joint joint.

You see most folks if not all on this thread are regular guys that have discussed stuff and we may not deliver a full technical data sheet of the characteristics of handling when discussing what works well, but have done in techi section of threads. This does not mean we do don't know what we are talking about that's all and this ARB topic is well covered on this forum and many other VAG forums.

We are a good friendly bunch, it was just the way your first post of response triggered the mass or replies. There is a way to state your point without pushing the emotion button.

Kind rgds

[Bowders1]

just realised my freedom membership has run out, and am lazy so have a massive inbox full of mail, just deleted a LOAD! you can pm me now:>

Oh yeah so is mine , I just realised why i can't store messages now. Must update my membership

[Jonneh]

Golden has helped me with cars for many years now and is a very nice guy to boot. He's basically just misunderstood. Haha.

[Lofty79]

Misunderstood is another word for unlikable.

When you are the only one among hundreds acting differently, maybe consideration of the fact that you are in the wrong.

Principally you may have valid points - but delivering them in this manner is knowing your clutch is slipping but driving off a cliff to fix it.

[demonufo]

The anti-roll bar is not an axle brace.

Blah blah blah.

I didn't describe it as an axle brace. I describe it more as a hub brace, to keep the hubs inline. You are describe a perfect corner force, which simply does not happen. The reality is a lot more wobbly than that. The forces aren't always even on the hubs, and aren't constantly forced in the same direction, unless you haven't stiffened the car to an impossible degree. The hubs are often trying to meet in the middle, and this is the job these particular aftermarket bars correct the most.

If they were "purely" to do the job you've described, then the structure is wrong, and the angles are all in the wrong place.

[MR G]

Think this is getting old now,just seems to be point scoring,this thread started well got funny and now is pointless.move on as said this should be a happy friendly place! Gentle men put your willys away!

[Lofty79]

Gentle men put your willys away!

Unecessary comment that! and as antagonistic as anything else written, put yours away! Im still learning, and useful info is still being brought to the fore.

Edited 12 January, 2013 by Lofty79

[MR G]

It was meant in a light hearted way,apologys if it came across different,and your right there is still some info brought to the fore,but I wish people would stop the bickering

[Lofty79]

It was meant in a light hearted way,apologys if it came across different,and your right there is still some info brought to the fore,but I wish people would stop the bickering

Aye I know what you mean mate, it happens too much agreed. Usually by ones unfamiliar, which in truth we would all do well to ignore, myself included. This time I fell for it and responded, which I don't normally do.

After all its only opinions on handling - not exactly a matter of national security.

I probably should have seen your lightheartedness buddy, I normally notice these but the nature of this thread made me miss it.

Onwards to more upbuilding discussions

[Bowders1]

It is all too chintzy for me...................lol

On another note latest part I just bought is a rear strut brace that will keep the rear towers upright and from moving inwards. Just playing with it to see what effects it has..

[MR G]

Got any pics? I made a brace which fits above to standard ones,looks good but don't think it does anything,what make is the brace?very interested in how you get on

[Golden]

Blah blah blah.

I didn't describe it as an axle brace. I describe it more as a hub brace, to keep the hubs inline. You are describe a perfect corner force, which simply does not happen. The reality is a lot more wobbly than that. The forces aren't always even on the hubs, and aren't constantly forced in the same direction, unless you haven't stiffened the car to an impossible degree. The hubs are often trying to meet in the middle, and this is the job these particular aftermarket bars correct the most.

If they were "purely" to do the job you've described, then the structure is wrong, and the angles are all in the wrong place.

I'm going to try and respond to this factually and politely.

I didn't describe it as an axle brace. I describe it more as a hub brace, to keep the hubs inline.

we have is a floppy as hell rear axle with p!$$ weak ends. These ends flex about

Firstly, the ARB bolts to the axle, not the hubs, so when you incorrectly describe it as an axle brace...

the rear bars primarily provide rigidity between these two axles

How on earth is it supposed to have any effect on the hubs independently?

This of course is completely wrong as not only does the bar not bolt to the hubs, or have any indepandant effect them, but the axle is also not in two halves.

Here's a picture to show it's one solid piece.

You are describe a perfect corner force, which simply does not happen.

The centrifugal force on a car cornering is the centrifugal force on a car cornering, please describe what 'perfect corner force' is?

I'm guessing from this comment:-

The reality is a lot more wobbly than that.

And

The forces aren't always even on the hubs, and aren't constantly forced in the same direction

You feel there are cyclic forces acting on a flexible hub as you corner, now we all know that there's lateral load placed on the tyre contact patch by the centrifugal force of cornering, where is the opposing force operating in the other direction coming from?

The hubs are often trying to meet in the middle, and this is the job these particular aftermarket bars correct the most.

Firstly this is obviously not true as if it were it would be equivalent to driving along with massive toe out, which would scrub the inside edges of the rear tyres bald in just a few miles.

Secondly, if this were true then your car would be in a ditch already, if you think that your hubs flex that much going round a corner, think about what happens when you move the steering wheel a tiny amount at 70mph.

Now consider how your car would react if the rear axle flexed as you state, and how the rear would violently steer, throwing you into a spin.

If they were "purely" to do the job you've described, then the structure is wrong, and the angles are all in the wrong place.

This is so wrong I'm trying hard to be factual, maybe a picture will help.

This is why your suggestion is fatally flawed.

The rear ARB on a our example Leon works only in torsion (twisting), not laterally (sideways) or compression/tension (squeezing/pulling).

The entire rear axle of a Leon is one big ARB. The axle doesn't flex sideways but does twist in the middle.

When you fit an aftermarket ARB you are supplementing the roll stiffness already in the rear axle, nothing else.