Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
gewstarr

Rear track control arm bushings

Recommended Posts

gewstarr    12

Hi guys!

After (thanks to your support) successfully fixing two MOT-failing issues I've decided to also take care of something they wrote me a formal "Good to know" entry about, which is like not an actual fail, but more like a a hint about what might fail on next year's checkup. This is something Swedish "MOT" usually do, not sure if the UK has something similar or if it's just either you make it or you fail it, MOT that is.

Anyways, this "Good to know" that they wrote on the paper was about rear bushings on the control arm, both sides was apparently bad, according to the girl checking the vehicle. Now I've read a lot online about this delicate issue, and whilst some claim this is a fairly hard DIY task (if you don't have a press at home) some say it's smoothly doable, using only homemade utilities and some patience.

Now, I've decided that this will be my summer project, and I'm starting slowly by asking you guys for some friendly advice in advance. Also, I've just been out on the parking lot taking photos, then comparing and understanding the corelation between different parts online etc. As it seems, everything here (in my case) is really rusty, so I'm actually thinking about replacing the whole kaboodle; control arm, lower ball joint, and maybe(!) also the actual console. Now, is this recommended, judging from the corrosion seen on photos below? What's your stand?

I've found much interest in reading some of the step by step guides here on Briskoda (especially this one and this one), but I feel that my car is a rusty wreck in comparison. Does -03 Fabia's in the UK look this bad as well, or is it something with Swedish roads, maybe the harsh winters?

959becd02ed7dd7e11d53121f24a4e07.jpg

11074f241de8756e96eeee2ba6b8436f.jpg

Anyways, I find that when heading for non-OEM parts, I can get all these replaced kind of cheap. Quality is of course a matter, maybe this control arm for 247 SEK (less than £ 20) won't be as good as an VW original part that will probably cost me three times more. Or, who really knows?

Also, is removing the entire console (6Q0199294D / 6Q0199293D) advisable? I mean, I can't help wondering, it's not under pressure or anything, so unscrewing the four(?) bolts holding it will make some part of the suspension to take a giant dive; making reassembly more or less impossible on the parking lot, leaving me stranded? Just thought I'd ask, before attempting this.

So, you may ask, why remove the console? Well, it's just that I thought that this would ease the task of pressing in the new bushing. And if removal is really just getting ARB (anti roll bar) out if the way (a screw or so) and then losing the four(?) bolts, well then it feels kind of okey. Any input would be much appreciated.

Edited by gewstarr

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
theezenutz    683

I personally would be cautious about trying to remove the whole Console bush bracket given the level of corrosion present on your car, I believe the bracket is made of aluminum (I think) and the bolts holding it will likely be seized in there cause you to strip threads or snap bolts.

 

When I did mine I also had the bright idea of removing the Console Bush bracket, the first bolt I tried to undo was the the anti roll bar bracket which I couldn't undo because the bolt would turn but not come out. My car has no where near the level of rust that yours does.

 

You maybe better off taking it to a garage as they will have the correct equipment to carry it out.

 

By the way your front tyre needs replacing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
sepulchrave    1,464

Now, I've decided that this will be my summer project

 

Dude, this is a few hours work, even you laid back Swedish types can't string this amount of work out to last an entire season  :D

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Wino    1,871

The UK MOT system has the same notifications of things that are 'not as they should be, but not yet dangerous'. They are described as 'Advisories'.

When we bought our Fabia it had Advisories from at least the two previous MOTs about these bushes, and I had a fair job persuading the dealer who was trying to sell it that he should fix this before we paid anything for the car. He eventually did the job, moaning that it wasn't really necessary. Unfortunately, at the time, I hadn't researched the subject well enough to know that fitting like-for-like replacements was a dumb move, so we ended up with a car that needed the same job doing again two years later. :thumbdown:

 

Two years later I got a garage to do one side (RHS) for me when it failed the MOT on that one, with the better 1K0 bush part number which I had bought ready to fit myself; but I was determined to do the other side myself (it's best to have matching bush designs on both sides of the car, or it may have unpredictable handling behaviour).

I made a big mistake, because I didn't think about it, and either hadn't read about it, or had forgotten the advice that says "Make sure you spray penetrating oil into the thread where the long front-bush bolt goes into the aluminium console/subframe, before you try to undo it". The only way to get the spray where it's needed is to jack up the car, remove the road wheel, and then find the end of the threaded hole, which goes right through the alloy of the console, (leaving an open end for water and salt to get in... :swear: ) and spray as much lubricant as you like in there. It's best to do this some hours before trying to undo those front bolts.

 

I'll try to get a photo up later, showing the location of this hole, viewed from the rear of the wheel-arch, looking forwards. It's a bit awkward to access but definitely worth the trouble. It's almost visible in your first picture, but just obscured by the wishbone from that angle. You just have to follow the line of the bolt. Spraying lube near the head of the bolt will be totally futile.

 

Anyway, if you haven't already guessed, on my left wishbone, that bolt picked up enough aluminium into the (corroded, rough) steel threads of the bolt, that it jammed up so tight it wouldn't move in either direction after a few turns. I knew I was in trouble within seconds of it moving for the first time, because instead of the load disappearing almost completely, it was still rather resisting my efforts to turn it (even going back the other way).  I should have thought 'lubricate' right then, and it might have been rescue-able, but I carried on blindly hoping for a miracle (or at least to be able to remove the bolt so I could get the wishbone out from the car) but it didn't happen, and I ended up having to snap the bolt.

 

Then I had to buy a new console in a hurry, because my partner needed the car the next day, which meant it was a rather expensive, and embarrassing mistake.

 

Recently I did the same job on the right side of my Polo (identical in this respect) and it went smoothly, but I still need to do the left side one (soon...), and that's the side in the UK that gets more puddle-splashing from the edge of the road, so I'll be even more nervous about that front bolt. I may even purchase a spare console 'just in case'; and if I don't need it, know that sooner or later there will be a Briskoda member glad to buy it from me in a hurry.

 

So I'm not trying to put you off having a go - which style of replacement bush are you planning? - but take every precaution you can to make the job go well, new bolts, lubricant, safe supporting of the vehicle, good solid tools (you really need a torque wrench to do the balljoint bolts and especially the front bolt correctly). 

 

Here's the (rather poor, stolen) picture with some notes added. I hope it is useful:

The%20dreaded%20console.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
sepulchrave    1,464

You certainly wouldn't get away with that tyre on a UK MOT :D

 

Wouldn't be much use during a Swedish winter either.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
gewstarr    12

First, I want to say big thanks for all your input guys, highly appreciated!

 

@theezenutz:

 

This is indeed a rusty wreck, but this fact is just giving me more pep to do something about these — at least theoretically — removable parts. Indeed, as you say, the housing / console is made of aluminum, which (according to Wikipedia) can resist corrosion in a different way than other hard metal. However, the bolts is of course steel, and these are probably badly seized due to this. I'm still not 100% sure about whether to remove the console, or just leave it in situ, as suggested.

 

Oh, the girl who did the MOT actually told me that the tires is just on the edge of the Swedish thread depth limit (1.6 mm for summer tires; 3 mm for winter tires), and she showed me that the indicators had shown themselves on just about all four tires. I asked her if she thought it'd be cool if I kept them for this final summer. She told me that she for sure wouldn't do so, and then we spoke no more. However, this didn't even go down the "Advisories" path, but remained as a verbal non-formal caution.

 

@sepulchrave:

 

Hehehehe, yeah you're probably right. Anyways, I'm just preparing myself that I will put the car on axle stands on our parking lot, start the project, only to fail miserable halfway in there, e.g. so that I can't get the wishbone(s) back thus not being able to get the car moving, being to cheap to call for tow truck assistance, so that the car will be stuck out there on it's axle stands for the remaining summer; hence the use of the term summer project! :D

 

@Wino:

 

Big thanks for your very detailed explanation of your own experience. I've picked up everything and shall take it with me when I get down to business. Great sketch work with the console, I find this _very_ useful. I will spray WD-40 / 5-56 in long intervals even days before I dive in, just to assure that I've ]at least] done pretty much all I can to prevent a backlash that could have been avoided. The last thing I want is to approach worn out threads. I have a fresh memory from just the other week of how much extra work just a rounded inner head of the Allen key holding the rod end caused me; i definitely don't want to go down this road again.

 

Also, I find it very interesting that you ask about what kind of bush I'll be going for. Well, actually I've not made up my mind yet. Honestly, I'm a cheap ******, so I could (stupid, yeah) be looking at some cheap replacements. Just the other night when surfing around, I found this item, which almost seems like one of those to-good-to-be-true kind of deals. I mean, 706 SEK is roughly £ 55, which seems like a pretty damn cheap melody to get a whole new _pair_ of control arms with both bushings included, plus lower ball joints, with securing plate. You know, there is an old saying; "If it seems too good to be true, it probably is", and I can't help wondering, hrhr.

 

Finally, I'm thinking about ways to remove and install the big bush into the console. In one of the two tutorials linked in my original post, Briskoda member @vrsfab is using a innovative method for pressing the new bushing in — a ratchet strap. Really impressive thinking there. However, he openly states that it will a tough task ("It will be difficult and a few more taps with the mallet may help the process.") so therefor I've been looking into some options. In fact, last night I surfed around eBay and eventually landed on this item, actually sold from West Bromwich the U.K. I think that if this utility actually makes the work so much easier, then it's a great way to spend € 32, plus shipping of course. Any input on this? Anyone here with real life experience with tools like this one?

 

@TMB:

 

Hehehe, well, according to research you have in fact the same thread dept limits as ours, and like stated above, the girl leading the investigation did actually check the tires, only to conclude that they were more or less exactly at the limit, so I passed. Or well, erhm, actually, to be honest, I didn't exactly see her use a measuring tool of any kind, but only performing a visual inspection. Perhaps tires was in reality slightly below the 1.6 mm limit, and she was just being friendly; or not-friendly, since it's really a matter of road security. I'll never know for sure! :|

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Wino    1,871

In your 706 SEK kit of bits, I can't see which type of rear bush that is, does it tell you anywhere? Not sure if it's because I'm outside on a small screen, but I just can't tell from that photo. The reason I asked which bushes you plan on fitting is because the degree of difficulty in fitting them varies quite a lot between the different types, and the advice on which is the best tooling and method will vary depending on your choice.

 

I don't think I would personally be concerned about removing the consoles from the car, I think all the bolts that hold them to the car go into steel threads after passing through generous-sized clearance holes in the aluminium casting, so no galvanic corrosion and seized bolts there I don't think, but it would be easy enough to try to undo one bolt at a time to check whether they will free off OK, if you did want to know that you have that option available.

 

You could do the same check on the long bolts that hold the front of the wishbone onto the console, a preliminary investigation to see if they will come out OK (but don't forget the penetrating fluid first!).  You only need to undo them a couple of turns to feel whether they are turning freely or not. If they are not, you can probably do them up again safely, knowing that at worst only two turns of aluminium thread have been damaged. Make sure you torque them up correctly again though, if you don't carry on and complete the job at that time. 70Nm plus a 90-degree turn, which is quite tight, and ideally is done from out in front of the car with a very long socket extension, or multiple extensions. This gives safer, better access than trying to work under the car, and for the final tightening, the weight should really be on the wheels anyway, so that the front bush is fixed in it's untwisted lowest-stress position.

 

Treat yourself to some new tyres soon though. That will have a much bigger impact on your safety than slightly degraded console bushes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
gewstarr    12

Actually, I think it's generic manufacturer BOLK/BÖLK that is behind track control arm as well as it's incl. bushings and lower ball joints. Just found out that Mister-Auto isn't Swedish but has business in GB as well; I found the same link but UK list prices, here. Says nothing except BOLK/BÖLK written across it, so I'm guessing that's about it, when it comes to label. I've sent an e-mail to these guys asking if it's really everything (x 2) included in this kit, and not just some demonstrative product photo i.e. showing bushings (not incl.) mounted. Waiting for an answer, when (if*) I receive green light on this I'll probably order it, since it was so damn cheap. Perhaps it'll only last for a year or so before bearings are worn, control arms all rusty, and/or ball joint ripped in pieces, but then at least (I'm guessing) it will be easier to loosen the stuff. Because now, I'm guessing these parts have been sitting tight ever since April of 2003, when this car first rolled out from the factory.

 

As soon as I get thumbs-up on the cheap kit I'll probably go ahead and order that bush remover/installer from eBay. Like I said, it feels like it'll definitely be worth the money. Also, when it comes to — definitely more expensive — true OEM parts, I think I've got a lead on the actual part numbers of the stuff involved in this project. I'll post these, in case they'll come in handy to anyone else, although I'm not 100% sure that the part numbers are the same for all Mk1's. Also, the long bolt (M12X1,5X100) seems to be assigned part number N10640301. I'll probably try and order a couple of those as well, since the old ones might (if I even manage to get 'em out, that is) not be so fresh looking.
 

 

    6Q0 407 183A    LOWER WISHBONE ARM REAR BUSHING
    6N0 407 175A    SECURING PLATE, BALL JOINT
    6Q0 407 151L    FRONT SUSPENSION ARM WISHBONE
    6Q0 199 293D    CONSOLE (LEFT)
    6Q0 199 294D    CONSOLE (RIGHT)

 

 

Also, speaking of tires, I'm actually on it. I've ordered four brand new Goodyear EfficientGrip Performance with the specs 195/60 R15 88H just a couple of days ago, so they should arrive any day now. Oh, I'm aware that these figures are way above the 195/50-15 specified by Škoda (at the inner side of the gasoline lid), but I've tried 195/50 R15 and speedometer was showing like >10 km/h under real speed (read by GPS). Now I'm on 195/55 R15 and speedometer is still showing slightly (~5 km/h or so) under real speed. I've had the honor of discussing this matter with Briskoda member @Alexandru in another forum thread, and he claims that 195/60 R15 gives spot on accurate speedometer reading, plus a more comfortable ride in general. So, now I'm about to give it a go. Also, well worth noting, here in Sweden insurance companies aren't that zealous when it comes to tire sizes. Also, when it comes to pure law, here it's stated that tires shall not exceed +/- 5% from OEM size. I think I've read somewhere here that the UK has only half (2.5%) of that tolerance, and stricter insurance rules in addition. Anyways, this was an slight off-topic siding, I'm sorry about that. It was just so much talk about my worn tires! :p

Edited by gewstarr

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Wino    1,871

The 6Q0407183A bush is the original design bush that has such a dismal record of longevity. (I think?) Only fit that part number if you wiah to repeat the job quite soon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
gewstarr    12

Thanks for the hint, since 6Q0407183A also seems to be horribly expensive (in comparison), I'll probably never touch those anyways. Now, I just called our local Skoda reseller here in town, and asked for the bolt (N10640301). They had it in stock and these would cost me 45 SEK (> £ 3,5), a piece. Not to be cheap or anything, but paying more than £ 7 for two damn bolts feels like a bit of steal or ripoff. I mean, how good could they possibly be? I'm looking on the item from VAG sketches, and by the looks it seems to be just like any hex cap screw. I'm now looking at a general hardware website, where a bag (5 pieces) of M12x100 hex cap bolts will cost me much less than only one bolt (electroplated), or less than a quid more for a bag (5 pieces) of such bolts in stainless steel (class A4; good stuff) and acid resistant. Best of the best, more or less. Now, according to Wikipedia M12 thread pitch is either 1.25 or 1.50 (both being used). I'll look into this before buying a bag of those. But anyways, I should be cool with generic bolts, shouldn't I? I can't find any info on what stainless steel class the OEM # N10640301 is made of. Who knows, maybe it's even worse than the ones that I'm looking at. I mean, given the fact that the OEM rear bushing is obviously crap, who knows squat about the wishbone/console bolts, other than stories (like yours, @Wino) around here about these being seized, causing secondary faults. Anyways, maybe I should worry more about getting the damn wishbone loose than what type of bolts to use. I have yet not received a reply on my e-mail to Mister Auto about that kit. As soon as I do, I'll order that install/removal tool from eBay. Or wait, what the heck, I'll do it right away, since I'll be buying all the mentioned parts for the front suspension in one way or another, soon anyways. Here goes nothing. Oh, I also just found a nice thread about removal of the console, if I chose to go down that road!

Edited by gewstarr

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Wino    1,871

Stick to genuine bolts there. I'll pop a picture of one up in a minute, but they're not really that generic, the head has a wide contact area for a start. They are 10.9 grade.

 

20150504_145456-1.jpg

 

20150504_145509-1.jpg

 

Those two pics above are of the genuine bolt N10640301, bought this year from VW.

 

Below is a comparison side-by-side with the bolt (on the right in the picture)  that was fitted previously in the Polo, not sure how significant the differences might be:

 

20150504_145702-1.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TMB    970

^ The bolt on the right is the same as the original ones I removed from my Fabia. The new ones I got from Skoda were the same as the left one - threaded nearly all the way down.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
fabdavrav    922

I did my console bushes with the unit on the car, just put a hacksaw blade through the holes/gaps & cut the plastic outer sleeve & hammered the old bush out. I then fitted new powerflex console bushes which just push in as a two part item

 

my info linky here

 

http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/200949-upgrade-the-bushes/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
gewstarr    12

Finally, parts has arrived. Took Mister-Auto a couple of weeks from said shipping till I had the (big) package ready for pickup at our post office.

As it turns out, this cheap kit's brand is "Mapco", which despite it's cheap price seems to have — at least some — reputation on car parts.

Also, guys at Mister Auto answered my e-mail saying that the kit included control arms and ball joints, and that only. So, because of this i ordered two pieces of bushings from manufacturer "TRW", which I know has a part of the whole VW steering linkage, so I'm hoping it holds descent quality.

30e42839cbb133c96e3cbf7f5c3c787e.jpg

However, it turns out the Mapco kit in fact included two bushings as well, so now I have more than I need. I don't know which to choose, really.

Anyways, today is the big day when we're pulling this off, and I'm truthfully scared of all the rust we'll meet along the way. Actually, don't ask me how/why (I'll take it in another thread / another day) but I have an old knuckle lying around at home so here I've put the pieces together on our living room floor.

32ed5f776299c12828be89c0ac9d22aa.jpg

One weird thing though, in the Mapco kit, there are 3 pcs of steel coloured bolts per ball joint included, and the locking plate of course, but also another 3 pcs of black bolts, plus 3 pcs of locking washers. See here?

e2ff78c7b807d27d422476353b4261bc.jpg

They are all 13 mm and by looking on official documentation (blueprints) on the front suspension I'm guessing I should use only the non-coloured, and no locking washers, just like I've done in my "in-door-on-carpet setup", seen above. I'm not doing it entirely wrong here, am I?

Oh, finally, if anyone else pushes through this, note that the two ball joints are different. At first glance they looked the same, but there is a slight difference in their geometry. I'm not sure if you even can assembly them the opposite (wrong) way around, and how messed up the steering would become of that, and I for sure won't even try it.

Wish us good luck, and feel free to drop any hints you have in stock. Especially interested in knowing about the excessive amount of 13 mm bolts (plus locking washers that I don't even think should be there) that came with the Mapco kit. We'll probably just get started today, 'cuz'cuz I start work at 2. Anyways, hope we'll at least get the car on axle stands and that we get that long and — from what I've heard here often painfully seized — bolt (console to front bushing) drowned in WD-40.

Cheers! [emoji1]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
gewstarr    12

Big thanks for the advice @theezenutz! Unfortunately, it will take some time order till arrival so I'll try with some generic WD-40 / 5-56 copy that I had lying home. At least for now, hopefully it'll do.

Anyways, we've getting started. Tried undo the hard one with a regular 18 mm spanner, just for kicks. No **** it wouldn't move. I'm probably bend the spanner mouth. So. Tried the nut (also 18 mm) holding the lower ball joint instead.

81c12cd116d265cd35fa51fabfa3027f.jpg

This got loose pretty much instantly. Sweet. I have a ball joint separator for later, hopefully it will be a straight forward process. Currently taking a quick break, getting my telescoping breaker bar and a 18 mm power socket.

Just thought I'd ask you, is it enough undoing the dreadful one and the lower ball joint, or will i need to undo the rod end as well? I mean, is the suspension on some final sort of pressure so that the steering rod end will get snatched hence damaged if not disconnecting it before proceeding with the rest?

Probably not, just though I'd ask. Better safe than sorry, right? [emoji1]

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
VWD    858

You don't mention the year/type of your Fabia. My SIL & his mate changed one of mine last year as it was an MOT fail. The original bush is of metalistic construction on mine, but with the outer being of plastic. There's talk of pressetc, but mine came outwith a tap from a hammer and replaced with a powerflex one ( bit of a struggle to get it back together though). But i remember seeing at least one guide/ discussion on here ( look in the useful guides section) on replacing this bush.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TMB    970

Big thanks for the advice @theezenutz! Unfortunately, it will take some time order till arrival so I'll try with some generic WD-40 / 5-56 copy that I had lying home. At least for now, hopefully it'll do.

Anyways, we've getting started. Tried undo the hard one with a regular 18 mm spanner, just for kicks. No **** it wouldn't move. I'm probably bend the spanner mouth. So. Tried the nut (also 18 mm) holding the lower ball joint instead.

81c12cd116d265cd35fa51fabfa3027f.jpg

This got loose pretty much instantly. Sweet. I have a ball joint separator for later, hopefully it will be a straight forward process. Currently taking a quick break, getting my telescoping breaker bar and a 18 mm power socket.

Just thought I'd ask you, is it enough undoing the dreadful one and the lower ball joint, or will i need to undo the rod end as well? I mean, is the suspension on some final sort of pressure so that the steering rod end will get snatched hence damaged if not disconnecting it before proceeding with the rest?

Probably not, just though I'd ask. Better safe than sorry, right? [emoji1]

 

 

 

You can remove the balljoint without disturbing the track rod end.

 

The two sets of bolts you have are just alternative ones for the balljoint to arm. The black bolts, nuts and spring washers are the alternatinve to the Skoda type bolts and plate with captive nuts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
gewstarr    12

Time for a nightly follow-up. I came to realize that 18 mm is a quite uncommon socket, or well at least it wasn't included either in my cheap Chinese 120 pcs toolbox (a 18 mm fitting 3/8" ratchet was there though, however I didn't even think of using it for a second) or in my more — recently bought — 92 pcs Kamasa box. The first toolbox had three 1/2" power sockets though, 17/19/21 mm, but no 18, sigh. Damn it. I went to work meanwhile my lady went and bought a 18 mm power socket.

Tonight we continued the project. I had found some cheap spray that is told to loosen up stuff that has seized due to corrosion, plus X4, a cheap substitute for WD-40 / 5-56. Sprayed pretty much a ton of this inside the back of the console hole. Eventually I found a fitting red straw for the X4 can (absent in the photo below since I had not found it yet) so I got the penetrating stuff right in where it was supposed to go.

9aed5b3caa872dac65af9b9fa7e9cc72.jpg

Now, I prepared the "breaker bar" (which is i fact a cheap telescopic tool to ease seasonal wheel changing) but soon found that the dumb angle the tool's hook got the grip to fall of under pressure. I got scared that I'd mess up the bolt head, so I switched to a regular 1/2" ratchet, the one from my cheap toolbox. Felt like the project was doomed, since I hadn't even gotten the thing to move yet. However, I used full force and guess what, it started moving. A while later it was out on the asphalt with me.

f3b3989ad8c7f169a69b0b7bd09a2cdd.jpg

I also unscrewed the nut on the ball joint. Now, next step would be to get the ball joint out. This showed to be easier said than done. At first I tried to be methodical and all, but given that there is no room for the ball joint removal tool (the one with a force screw) I soon found myself hopelessly banging the entire thing.

 

 

Then it got dark and I had reached nowhere, so I gave up and called it a night. Since I'll be replacing everything with my new kit I don't really care about the old ball joint. Tomorrow I'll go and buy a slimmer fork, and maybe give it another attempt before I go to work. So, right now pretty much stuck. Any ideas would be much appreciated. I searched around this issue and gladfully I don't seem to be the only guy in the world that has had similar problems with stuck ball joints.

Tonight I compared the new versus old bolt, and like you guys said earlier here, design is changed. The new bolt has threads all the way.

8083d7322e87ea38113a5e757bf66765.jpg

Oh, by the way, look at my old bolt. Why does our look like that in the bottom? I'm guessing this isn't some weird technical design of the bolt. No, seriously, it's more like I started eating aluminum from the console at the very last threads I unscrewed, right? How bad is this, really? Anything to think of when installing the new bolt? Should I use copper paste? Aluminum paste? I have a tube of each. But wouldn't greased threads mess up the accuracy of the set torque when tightening? Am I thinking wrong here? Any hint or advice is much appreciated.

 

@VWD:

Sorry, I should have. It's a 2003 Estate with the BBY (75 hp / 1,4l / 16v) engine. I have watched a few threads around here discussing such (Powerflex) bushings. I guess I could do them too, but since this isn't much of a sports vagon, I'm not sure how much I would benefit from them. Of course, it would be nice, but they would also cost me more than these standard ones that I have gotten for now.

 

@TMB:

Thanks for the heads-up! Nothing weird happened after fully undoing either the long bolt or the nut on the ball joint, but I must admit I was a bit shaky, since I hadn't read your answer by the time I was there on the ground doing them. And thanks for the clarification on the extra sets of bolts / washers / nuts, now it all makes sense. I'll probably stick to using the classic fitting with the locking plate and blank bolts.

Edited by gewstarr

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
sepulchrave    1,464

Use the aluminium grease, it will make torqueing up easier not harder.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Wino    1,871

If you remove the three bolts that hold the wishbone onto the balljoint, you can then get the wishbone off. This will give you more room to work around the balljoint, and allow you to continue with the rest of the job. If the balljoint really won't come off, you can still put everything together re-using the old one.

 

That 'picking-up' of aluminium from the console into the threads of the bolt is exactly the problem that causes these bolts to sometimes seize in the console, or strip the thread in the console. 

I guess you had to keep using quite a bit of effort all the way to unscrew it?, instead of the usual experience with 'good' threaded joints where the first half-turn is the only time there is any  resistance during undoing.

 

With a little luck, those two end threads filled up gradually and progressively along the full length of undoing, rather than early in the process, so damage to the console thread may be minimal. 

I would be reasonably confident of it holding OK. I would just use about two drops of engine oil as lube on the new bolt, to offset any roughness in the aluminium thread caused by that 'picking up'. Too much lube will result in your initial 70Nm pre-torque causing higher axial pre-load than intended, and make it more likely that the final 90 degree turn will strip the console.        

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
vzo25    39

If you search youtube for fredintheshed1

Hes done a great video on the bush replacement for seat ibiza polo fabia.

I highly advise checking out.

It wont let me post a link sorry.

Preparation is the key

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
gewstarr    12

@sepulchrave:
Yeah I get it that tightening will be easier, it's more (like Wino here suggested) that I'm worried about the risk of felt resistance being less than actual torque due to lubricating, hence suddenly breaking it due to having put too much actual force on the threads; if I recall correctly you are supposed to use torque wrench on non lubricated bolts/nuts for result to be correct. Big thanks for the tip, anyways. Much appreciated.

@Wino:
Yeah, it was exactly like you describe it, every turn of the bolt was really heavy. I almost thought that it was pressurized somehow so I prepared myself for the suspension to suddenly pop when the bolt did. However, last (three-four or so) turns where really loose (like supposed to), so by then I had stopped worrying. Actually, it wasn't until later that night when I inspected the bolt more thorough I found the outer threads filled with torn aluminum. As for the three 13 mm bolts holding control arm to ball joint, since I've decided to replace this old (probably since 2003 when car rolled out from factory) piece I haven't bothered even considering this. Also, "giving up" and refitting the old one is unlikely a reasonable option, since I've probably damaged the seized ball joint more than plenty with all my hammering with the fork on and around it. But hey, perhaps there is some pressure coming from the control arm, i.e. so that the ball joint would come of easier from the knuckle if I first removed bolts and let it slide out? I haven't though about that. Perhaps I'll give it a go tomorrow, but I have a feeling that getting those (3 pcs) bolts out and then getting the (probably seized as well) metal to separate could be almost as much of a project as just proceeding with the actual big connection that I'm so eager to break down.

@vzo25:
In fact now after having seen it I can even link it.

 

 

As for preparation, I did actually order an exclusive utility box (from West Bromwich in the U.K. actually) with a big force screw and three big cups in different sizes for removal plus installation of the bushes in Fabia / Fox / Polo,. This item I have received and have lying prepared now, waiting to be used. So, the part with mounting the bushes will hopefully not be so painful, it's just getting there that seems like a bumpy road, at least for the moment. Big thanks for the video!

 

So, the story today?

Before I was off to work early today I went out to the parking lot, and re-started just where I left off yesterday. After some hammering on my fork one of it's teeth suddenly broke. The natural quality of a really cheap utility, or just me mishandling it? I dunno, perhaps a little of both.

a194ef192851611fe8c9d9d7aaa8b870.jpg

However, I then tried a new method, introducing a stiff wooden plank. Actually I wouldn't call it a plank, being >1 meters long and ~8x8 cm in thickness; we're talking solid wood here.

 

 

Unfortunately, like you can see, this wouldn't do me no favor at all. I soon broke the other teeth of the fork as well. Sigh. Later on the day, while being at work, my sweet lady went and bought another type of fork, longer and sharper teeth; i.e. less blunt teeth, hence these are probably also more likely to snap. I guess I'll have to be methodical and think twice, to avoid mishandling this utility as well.

e85665fabd84b42eb4537b75a8fc2de7.jpg

However, it was so late (dark) when I got home, plus I was dead tired after putting the six year old to bed, but tomorrow I'll give it a go for sure. I've really sworn that I will get that stubborn ball joint of, no matter what it takes.

To be continued. And thanks for all your input/advice so far.

Edited by gewstarr

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
sepulchrave    1,464

Try the hot spanner since you're throwing the old ball joint in the bin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×