Clutch Eats Gearbox and Bank Balance!

[williamshatnerspants]

The phrase "good luck with that attitude" comes to mind.

[Richardmmm]

Just found this having recently replaced the bell housing on a scout 6 speed, sachs  clutch had worn through the front end just the same. The shock to me was when I pot the gearbox type in gumtree / ebay to see if it would be cheaper to put in secondhand, there were two available- one was for sale described with the same damage, the other had a clearly visible ring worn on the box by the clutch and must have been close to failing. My advice is is to get those clutches changed if you know you have one, the work cost me £1600 all in and that was parts only and £200 for my mate that gave up 2 Saturdays to help me. 2011 2.0tdi octavia 6 speed in case it helps. RM

[Ryeman]

Deleting the manual as an option seems to be the future.

The new 8 speed auto looks a safer bet if VW want to compete with a half decent 5 year warranty.

[Roots Supercharger]

When I drive my EOS and SUPERB I push the clutch pedal down to the bump stop. This is far too far past the clutch bite/release point and must put stain on the clutch diaphragm spring etc.. Therefore when the cars were newish I glued half an inch of rubber to the face of the bump stop to limit clutch pedal downward travel. I think there is now an adjustable bump stop on the market that does the same thing. This mod. must take a lot of wear and tear off the clutch clamp spring parts.

[Shaunieboy]

3 hours ago, Roots Supercharger said:

When I drive my EOS and SUPERB I push the clutch pedal down to the bump stop. This is far too far past the clutch bite/release point and must put stain on the clutch diaphragm spring etc.. Therefore when the cars were newish I glued half an inch of rubber to the face of the bump stop to limit clutch pedal downward travel. I think there is now an adjustable bump stop on the market that does the same thing. This mod. must take a lot of wear and tear off the clutch clamp spring parts.

Is this a thing? Interesting.. 

[DEL80Y]

 

[Jayelem]

Interesting point.  As I've said many times, this is a fatigue failure, and as such, a lower stress could help, but only if the part has been incorrectly designed.  Look up "S/N curve, fatigue" and you'll see a graph with a decreasing straight line that, at a certain point, levels to horizontal.  This means if the stress (S) is below this point, the number of cycles to failure (N) will be "infinite" (meaning generally more than 10^7 cycles.)  Above this stress, the cycles-to-failure rapidly decrease, so for these clutches to fail, they are operating on the slope of the S/N curve, ie. a poor design.  Reducing the pedal travel (hence S) would help, but as the clutch wears, it would likely become crunchy, and of course, the main point is you shouldn't have to do that. It's just a bad design, with Skoda in denial and sometimes offering customers "help" with a built-in, day one problem that the customer cannot influence at all.

[Ryeman]

^^^^^^VW “in denial”?

[Jayelem]

31 minutes ago, Ryeman said:

^^^^^^VW “in denial”?

I asked formally: "This cannot possibly be a one-off,  do you have in your warranty records multiple failures of this type?"  Answer: "We are not aware of it"

[Ryeman]

Just now, Jayelem said:

I asked formally: "This cannot possibly be a one-off,  do you have in your warranty records multiple failures of this type?"  Answer: "We are not aware of it"

I doubt that Skoda can say much else as they are simply handmaidens of Wolfsburg.

The oily bits come in a box from those of a flexible disposition when it comes to inconvenient facts........now including Takata airbags too.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20180315/OEM10/180319820/automakers-knew-earlier-of-takata-airbag-issues-plaintiffs-contend?cciid=email-autonews-daily

[Jayelem]

No, I'm sure they can't.  I was just answering your question about denial.  It's inconceivable, though, that SUK don't have chapter and verse on this years-long problem, and I was annoyed the best they could do was "it's news to us"

[Donbrig]

The Sachs clutch scandal continues to claim victims - pity this poor sod with a bill of £5327 for his Audi - link.

 

To follow up on my case, in short SUK continue to point blankly deny that there is any issue with the Sachs Clutch even when Motorcodes agreed with me that there were too many incidents being reported for it to be just a case of "normal wear and tear" and that my case should be reconsidered.

SUK response was basically, if you believe there is a case, we'll see you in court and you better have some independent engineering analysis to back up your allegation.

That I could not pursue based on advice I got from the CAB as I made the mistake of accepting out of ignorance their goodwill offer of a "donation" to the cost of the gearbox replacement at the end of 2016 (still leaving me over £1k out of pocket).

Apparently though, if VAG are forced to do a recall on the Sachs clutch due to safety there is then an opportunity for compensation - this is the site where people should report the issue and the clutch failure can be dangerous with at least one report of a Audi losing the clutch and gearbox whilst travelling at high speed on the motorway.

[Jayelem]

Donbrig:  At the risk of repeating myself, it's worth going over the "normal wear and tear" point again.  As a Chatered Engineer with thousands of metallurgical failure analyses under my belt (including my own Skoda, as above) I feel well-qualified to comment, but actually, this is a very simple situation.  I would be very sure that your failure, and all the others, would, like mine, show "beach mark" striations on the spring fracture faces, and any first year metallurgy student will tell you that this is the definitive symptom of a fatigue failure.  At this point, it's game over, because we have a major transmission part that fails (with no possible input or contribution from the driver and with disastrous consequential effects) at an unrealistically low 40K miles or so.  In or out of warranty, that's clearly unfit for purpose. 

 

If you wanted to go further and say why it failed by fatigue, then the operating stress/fatigue limit, as in my posts above, has to be a prime contender.  Another possible contribution is the "fretting" (micro- welding) I saw between the diaphragm spring and its retainer, which can initiate fatigue cracks.  What didnt cause it, at least in my case, is faulty heat-treatment of the spring, which looked absolutely fine. 

 

There's no doubt in my mind that the most basic metallurgical analysis would prove to a court's satisfaction that this was an original, inherent fault that is totally outside any influence of the customer.  For reasons I've already explained, that person isn't me, but with the multiple failures of Skoda, VW, Audi, and probably others, my feeling is that this surely is within the remit of Motorcodes as an industry regulator and consumer champion.  Why should us minions have to take the fight as individuals to a global conglomerate with massive power and finances behind it?  Why do we have to scramble for tenuous safety links?  Why are they allowed to blithely ignore obvious OE failures, hiding behind passive threats like "so sue us"?  This is not only unfair, but is also willingly deceitful and completely immoral.  We need US-style consumer-protection laws!

 

You got a much better response from Motorcodes than I did, but I wish someone would ask them to read this thread in detail and explain their inaction.  I think it would also be good if Audi, VW and other owners who have found this thread could join forces somehow.  How many cars, at what cost, have failed, and how many are yet to fail?  All in all, a disgraceful situation

Edited 2 May, 2018 by Jayelem
Typo

[Ryeman]

It’s VAG’s attitude that lingers!

[Richardmmm]

You can see why the VAG attitude is what it is looking at the Audi string as well- one one hand they have a poor component, in fact a gift that keeps giving in respect of dealer work, spares sales etc but, if they did admit it is the problem, they would have to put their hands quite deeply into their pockets. The financial difference between those two scenarios would generate big numbers across the affected models so I do not see that happening anytime soon especially while it is just us minions discussing this on individual car and company forums. Shocking attitude but the more I deal with big companies the more common it seems to be, never any movement until they are finally called out. RM

[Jayelem]

Richard:  Two things in your post ring true:  "it's just us minions discussing this..." and  "until they are finally called out..." 

 

In my view, the technical liability of VAG is beyond doubt, and it's very obvious that it's  not in their interests to accept liability.  If it was a couple of cases, it would be different, but this must be hundreds of customers significantly out-of-pocket for the same provable OE fault that is actively, if not dishonestly, denied ("Not aware of this problem"  "no component fault" etc)

 

I think we are well past the point of debating IF or HOW, and with the multiple, repeated, provable failures, it's time the industry bodies, trading standards or consumer groups stepped in.  Its very clear that Joe Public Vs the world's biggest motor manufacturer is simply a no-contest.  We need support.

[cheezemonkhai]

I had a noise very much like this appear just before I traded in the 2.0 tdi when I traded it in.

 

i remember when the DMF problems were everywhere, people wanted the LUK out and replaced with a Sachs due to the perceived better reliability of the DMF.

 

what a mess. Does anyone know if this issue is present in the mk3 cars?

 

 

[Jezzam]

Thanks for the information on this thread.  My 2011 skoda superb had clutch failure at 35000 miles in December 2017 which hit and destroyed the gearbox as you described.  Just wonder how many more are out there.  I took my car to a non dealer garage but still costly to repair.

Edited 30 June, 2018 by Jezzam
Wrong year

[SkudMissile21]

I’ve just had my car back from a 3 week trip to the garage (local trusted not main dealer!) for the same issue. Noticed a small oil leak around the service a few months back which he checked the level and topped up a bit but as we were unaware of this problem I wasn’t too worried (big mistake but the damage was done by the time it was leaking oil anyway....)

fast foward a few months and it started jumping out of 6th gear when coming off the throttle so was rushed in for a big top up and then shortly after scheduled for investigation. The results were identical to this thread, pressure plate failed with a piece stuck out having machines it’s way through the bell housing. As second hand gearboxes are stupid money (£750 upwards) and the car is low mileage (56000 on a 60 plate) I felt I had no option but the rebuild so gearchange were employed for the job at a cost of £1326 inc vat plus around £600 for an LUK clutch, flywheel and fitting. I’m still waiting for the complete invoice but don’t expect much change from £2000.

not sure if I’ll get anywhere with the main dealer as it was independently done but I’m gonna try once I have the invoice and a report from the garage and gearchange.

 

[Jayelem]

SURELY we are now at a point where Trading Standards, Motorcodes or some formal legal challenge is mounted to this known, original, and cynically-denied problem?  Blameless owners have shelled out millions to pay for a fault that was built into their cars.  I tried and failed, but surely, the more pressure they get, the sooner we can end this blatant scam.  A legal challenge might be difficult, but I'd advise anyone who's had this problem, or feels strongly about it, to write to Motorcodes, quoting this thread.  What possible excuse can they have NOT to act? We should ask that question.

Edited 15 July, 2018 by Jayelem

[chimaera]

4 hours ago, Jayelem said:

SURELY we are now at a point where Trading Standards, Motorcodes or some formal legal challenge is mounted to this known, original, and cynically-denied problem?  Blameless owners have shelled out millions to pay for a fault that was built into their cars.  I tried and failed, but surely, the more pressure they get, the sooner we can end this blatant scam.  A legal challenge might be difficult, but I'd advise anyone who's had this problem, or feels strongly about it, to write to Motorcodes, quoting this thread.  What possible excuse can they have NOT to act? We should ask that question.

I've pointed out several times on this thread that this issue has been recognised by Skoda/VAG including the details of the technical bulletin they have issued. Skoda KNOW this is a problem and have issued instructions to their dealers on what to do to resolve it.

 

Knowing this, it baffles me how none of you have taken Skoda to task on this, either via trading standards or legal proceedings.

[Jayelem]

1 hour ago, chimaera said:

I've pointed out several times on this thread that this issue has been recognised by Skoda/VAG including the details of the technical bulletin they have issued. Skoda KNOW this is a problem and have issued instructions to their dealers on what to do to resolve it.

 

Knowing this, it baffles me how none of you have taken Skoda to task on this, either via trading standards or legal proceedings.

Hi.  My own efforts are detailed in the thread, but in summary: SUK said (and I quote) "We are not aware of this problem, and we have no record of it happening". Citizens Advice said to use the trade association (Motorcodes). They said the only option was to sue the dealer who originally sold the car, but they wouldn't hold out much hope.  I looked at starting legal proceedings, but that was an initial £200 fee, with more if you lost the case, and having just shelled out £3K+, I didn't have the heart to do that.  I'd still say this is at a level now that's beyond individuals (especially with Skoda's "see you in court" attitude) and I believe a consumer group or class action is entirely appropriate, and for me, that's Motorcodes.

[MarkTB]

I've read through the majority of this thread tonight after my dad had an issue with his Superb this afternoon - clutch slipping out of the blue, acrid smell and (luckily perhaps) after limping home, a rattle like somethings rubbing.

 

Reading this we were both unaware of a potential clutch issue, and were wondering if anyone has been able to identify the most likely gearbox/MY/etc. combinations to be fitted with the sachs clutch and affected by this issue. He's done around 65,000 and his car is a 2014 63 reg CR140.

 

I would say this sound like the 'standard' symptoms for this but would those more in the know agree? He was planning to take to our local indy/have a friend replace the clutch/flywheel, but is he better to take to the dealer and argue his case??

 

I'm now concerned whether my MY2011 CR140 on 82,000miles may be affected... 

[Ryeman]

I’d go back to the dealership for analysis and hopefully the ‘goodwill’ assistance resolving it.  VW have acknowledged the issue and at least contributed to the repair for others.

[Donbrig]

Had my car in the local garage yesterday (a independent) and was talking with the owner and amongst other things he commented that he had a Audi (62 reg) in a couple of weeks ago with a failed Sachs clutch that had started to eat the gearbox (in this case, caught before it had pierced the gearbox).

It does seem to be this c.2011-2013 period when the duff clutches were installed in VAG manual transmission cars - here is another forum discussing the same issue, this time for VW Passats - link

 

Not that you will find Skoda UK will ever acknowledge that there is a problem. 

In my experience, they have a ostrich attitude to the issue and in my case basically told me to take them to court with independent engineering evidence that there is a issue if I wanted full compensation (read previous comments in this thread for more details if desired).