Breaking VW Emissions Scandal -Mk I

[Ryeman]

Ryeman,

so what is the Australian Government or Transport agency / Minister saying that the Volkswagen Group in Australia have to do?

From what I've read on this saga

Much water has to flow yet......VW now seem to have 'til late this month to resolve all questions regarding different vehicles/brands/markets not to mention satisfying all those different regulators and customer representatives (lawyers?) not to mention the general public's concerns.

Thumb twiddling time still it seems.

Edited 4 October, 2015 by Ryeman

[Ootohere]

http://abc.net.au/news/2015-10-03/volkswagen-suspends-australian-sales-of-some-diesel-vehicles/6825380

[BJM]

The following day the same author printed a further piece stating that VW will NOT all get new engines.

Another case of journalistic speculation and promulgating rumours. Quoting anonymous insiders is journalist speak for "I made it up"

TBH it's now at the stage where negotiations , plans etc are going on behind closed doors and there is little or nothing new for journalists (and Forum posters) to say.

Nothing to see here atm, move along.

[Ryeman]

Will the U.S. consumer be attended to as a priority and in isolation from other markets with attendant class actions inevitably running concurrently ?.

Could we all end up with the ultimate clean diesel as a result of an adoption of the U.S. solution.

That could be a penalty in itself but would be a pr positive.

I just hope we Aussies don't get to be treated as second class.

[Ryeman]

The following day the same author printed a further piece stating that VW will NOT all get new engines.

Another case of journalistic speculation and promulgating rumours. Quoting anonymous insiders is journalist speak for "I made it up"

TBH it's now at the stage where negotiations , plans etc are going on behind closed doors and there is little or nothing new for journalists (and Forum posters) to say.

Nothing to see here atm, move along.

It all comes down to how they cut n paste the "......"s

[vxh26]

Now some of the Norwegian media has begun to call this incident the death of diesel...

<SNIP>

About bleedin' time.  I can't see it happening on commercial vehicles for some time but it seems quite likely in the case of cars.

[Ryeman]

Interestingly the Guardian reports that the car emmissions test body the Vehicle Certification Agency is ~ 70% funded by the car industry which effectively funds the test procedure.

It's just another form of self regulation to me, and like VW, wish this would all just go away.

[lol-lol]

It will be interesting to see where the new Real Driving Emissions has to be tweaked to be actually workable in the light of the revelations between test and real.  Maybe the 80mg/km in test might have to be translated to 100 mg/Km RDE or the like.  As long as the overall and real move is to cut NO significantly ie by half or two thirds etc that is a proper target.  I still have not seen a table for petrol cars are they producing 3-10 times more NO in RDE than test?   I presume not as else it would have had it the news in that bad news trumps good news every time.

 

 

 

 

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-15-5705_en.htm

 

 

When will the RDE test procedure be in force?

In May 2015 the new procedure received a positive vote from the Technical Committee for Motor Vehicles, where all Members states are represented, and it will come into effect in January 2016. In this initial stage the portable emissions system will be used for monitoring purposes and it will have no implications on the conformity certificate issued by the national type-approval authority (TAA). Work is now underway to establish the regulatory not-to-exceed (NTE) emission limits applicable in RDE testing. These limits define the acceptable small degree of deviation from the emission limit set in Regulation 715/2007/ECto take into account measurement uncertainties present in the on-road testing. The NTE approach has proven its robustness in the assessment of, for example, emissions form heavy-duty vehicles. Other elements that are being discussed are test boundary conditions, such as temperature, altitude or velocity. All the details related to the RDE procedure for passenger cars and vans are currently being discussed with stakeholders and Member States. The Commission services aim to have the not-to-exceed emission limits applicable for all type approvals in the autumn 2017 and for new vehicles in the autumn 2018. The not-to-exceed limits should reflect environmental objectives as well as economic and technical feasibility.

[NigNB]

Oops...... Looks like early reports restricting potentially affected diesel engines to 2.0 TDI may have been premature.

It is true that some journalists have been suggesting that final confirmation from VW may pick up 1.6 TDI engines too, but I think a lot of private owners are in for a shock this week!

My V5 clearly indicates CAYB, and more internet research confirms that VW 1.6TDI engines (105 & 90 PS) which carry engine numbers starting CAYB & CAYC are EU5 EA189 blocks.

This could mean that significant numbers of VW cars & vans, Audi, Skoda & Seat cars with the much-deployed common rail DOHC 16v

diesel may have the defeat software installed.

Ironically, all of the VAG cars marketed under Greenline, Bluemotion etc. that use the "clean" 1.6 diesel are also affected!

Mmmmmmm - pants on fire!

[chrisgreen]

Wow - this story really is eating messier by the moment.

At least our government has said that, after after it finishes retesting, if it has to reclassify the affected cars in another tax class it won't come after owners for any more money than they already pay. Instead VAG UK will be getting the bill. That's something at least.

[DavidY]

It will be interesting to see where the new Real Driving Emissions has to be tweaked to be actually workable in the light of the revelations between test and real.  Maybe the 80mg/km in test might have to be translated to 100 mg/Km RDE or the like. 

 

So have I understood this right?

There'd still be a lab test to set that car's official emission figures, then they check on the road that it's still within a margin of those figures?

If so, it's an interesting way to get around the problem that testing on the road gives inconsistent answers due to wind, temperature, etc.

[DavidY]

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-15-5705_en.htm

 

 

Also from that link,

 

 

Are defeat devices illegal in the EU?

Yes. Defeat devices are forbidden in the EU. Article 5 (2) of Euro 6 Regulation 715/2007/EC prohibits the use of defeat devices. Article 3(10) defines defeat device as any element of design which senses temperature, vehicle speed, engine speed (RPM), transmission gear, manifold vacuum or any other parameter for the purpose of activating, modulating, delaying or deactivating the operation of any part of the emission control system, that reduces the effectiveness of the emission control system under conditions which may reasonably be expected to be encountered in normal vehicle operation and use.

 

I think I now understand why the cars are being recalled (or whatever the correct word is) in the EU... it isn't because they definitely cheated the EU tests, but the very existence of a defeat device (even if it only made a difference on American EPA tests) means they've broken the testing rules.

It could be that by simply deleting the lines of software code that did the cheating in America, they'd pass the EU test with exactly the same results as before because the cheat code didn't operate there anyway.

Edited 4 October, 2015 by DavidY

[bluecar1]

only good thing so far is the govmt have said they are not going to alter the road tax banding for affected cars

 

mind you depending on the fix will the drop in performance be noticeable?

 

as still no mention of the fix other than ECU reprogram

 

will be interesting to see how many out of warranty cars suddenly get remapped after the fix?

Edited 4 October, 2015 by bluecar1

[skomaz]

Also from that link,

 

 

I think I now understand why the cars are being recalled (or whatever the correct word is) in the EU... it isn't because they definitely cheated the EU tests, but the very existence of a defeat device (even if it only made a difference on American EPA tests) means they've broken the testing rules.

It could be that by simply deleting the lines of software code that did the cheating in America, they'd pass the EU test with exactly the same results as before because the cheat code didn't operate there anyway.

 

 

Read it again and it's actually the reverse...   "Article 3(10) defines a defeat device as any element that reduces the effectiveness of the emission control system in normal vehicle operation and use."

 

 

The text notes that it is illegal to have a defeat device that REDUCES EFFECTIVENESS of emissions systems during NORMAL driving.  What VW did was the opposite - they INCREASED effectiveness during TEST CONDITIONS.

[The Plumber]

If they are running fine as they are, why 'fix' them. 

 

I'm sure Governments like to get all fired up over things to justify their army of bureaucrats . However all that really needs doing is hitting VAG with a fine, draw a line under it and learn to keep a tighter eye on what's going on behind the scenes, where you have regulations imposed designed to tie people in knots. As will all things, engineers will always find a way round a problem, particularly ones dreamed up by a 'pen pusher'  

 

 

TP

[eyegr]

What doesn't make sense is that the VW "fix" to the 2.0 TDI in the USA was to tackle with the tight NOx emissions of that country. Why would they need such a "fix" for the EU market where NOx emissions are practically unregulated?

That being said, the 1.6 TDIs (CAYx) are indeed EA189 powertrains so they could be affected. In fact, AFAIK any engine could be affected and we cannot be sure untile someone does what the americans did.

 

If VW issues a recall to an affected car, it is very likely that after the ECU firmware upgrade the user will notice degraded performance, lower mileage or both. It is my belief that the owner could succesfully sue VW after that, on the grounds of selling the car with false technical data.

[bluecar1]

If they are running fine as they are, why 'fix' them. 

 

snip..

 

TP

to reduce the emmissions?

 

I cant see them removing the full effect as I think that would affect the power / drivability to a noticeable level, so there needs to be some compromise in the middle where the exhaust is cleaned up a reasonable amount without knobbling the engine to much

[The Plumber]

to reduce the emmissions?

 

Without being to politically incorrect, if the Government and we as a people (global) really wanted to reduce emission's, then addressing continuous population growth would be a far more long term effective measure, than getting carried away because one of the big boys of business wasn't quite as successful as other others in hiding their 'dirty laundry'.

 

 

TP

[vxh26]

<SNIP> if the Government and we as a people (global) really wanted to reduce emissions, then addressing continuous population growth would be a far more long term effective measure <SNIP>

 

Whilst a nice idea, I would love to read your suggestions as to how we might effect (sic) this change to affect (sic) emissions?

[DavidY]

If they are running fine as they are, why 'fix' them. 

 

 

My interpretation of the link lol-lol posted is that the emission results become invalid because the defeat device is illegal, whether or not it affected the EU results.

 

My analogy is that the EU emissions tests are a bit like an exam, where the invigilator in the exam room discovered someone's smartphone as they collected in the papers, and smartphones are banned from that exam.  Whether or not the smartphone made a difference to the result is irrelevant as the results are still null and void, and the best they can hope for is to be allowed to sit the exam again and follow the rules this time. But the result may end up the same as first time round.

[bluecar1]

biggest issue they now have is to change the exam for engines?

 

but once they have that they will need to re-exam ALL manufacturers as they can't be certain it is limited to VAG (I currently doubt it is as engineers move between companies etc)

 

this issue will rumble on for months / years as the car manufacturers have fat wallets to pay lobbyists to get their way when it comes to watering down legislation / rules

[kevberlin]

Strange!

Just checked my 2013 Superb Greenline Facelift on the Volkswagen website checker.

It states, categorically, that my car is "not fitted with the software that causes discrepancies in the values for oxides of nitrogen........".

Pleasantly surprised.

[Tony R]

What doesn't make sense is that the VW "fix" to the 2.0 TDI in the USA was to tackle with the tight NOx emissions of that country. Why would they need such a "fix" for the EU market where NOx emissions are practically unregulated?

That being said, the 1.6 TDIs (CAYx) are indeed EA189 powertrains so they could be affected. In fact, AFAIK any engine could be affected and we cannot be sure untile someone does what the americans did.

 

If VW issues a recall to an affected car, it is very likely that after the ECU firmware upgrade the user will notice degraded performance, lower mileage or both. It is my belief that the owner could succesfully sue VW after that, on the grounds of selling the car with false technical data.

Very fine in principle but almost impossible to prove because V A G are going to have to agree the vehicle is performing worse than before, against the owners contention, and unless the owner can show irrefutable proof, he ain't gonna get very far. Except of course if the new fitted software can be shown to be producing a lower bhp than official published when the vehicle was marketed? That presumably would need an independent test unless V A G openly admit the new software does produce lower output. Then the question arises what compensation will be forthcoming and for how long! My car is coming up to 5 yrs old, ( mileage reading as of today 15188 ) practically all motorway between London and Southampton. Maybe V A G will say I don't do much mileage therefore not entitled to much compensation?

[Arragonis]

Strange!

Just checked my 2013 Superb Greenline Facelift on the Volkswagen website checker.

It states, categorically, that my car is "not fitted with the software that causes discrepancies in the values for oxides of nitrogen........".

Pleasantly surprised.

 

Doesn't the VW one state it only covers VW badged cars and you need to check seperately with other brands for those models ?

 

My Passat 1.6 has come up positive, waiting to find where to check Mrs A's Octavia 1.6 - the VIN Link above doesn't seem to cover it.

Edited 4 October, 2015 by Arragonis

[Arragonis]

I think we need to wait and see what the fix is.

 

If it is a case of removing the defeat software and nothing else is affected then fine.
 

If it affects BHP and MPG, or increases costs elsewhere then not so good.

 

I think you can decide not to bother having the mod done ? Might affect resale or trade in value later maybe.