VW Emissions Scandal Thread V2

[Ryeman]

It's all over come 2017 when (supposedly) the world standard comes in.

It has to survive the undermining (bribing/threatening) by the manufacturers in the meantime of course.

[Paul007]

Letters have been issued stating the fixes and timescale.

[Outofthi5world]

Letters have been issued stating the fixes and timescale.

Yup. my dad got his this afternoon, just read it now actually. Looks like they've sent out letters explaining that they still don't know exactly what's going on. They say in the letter that the cars still need testing and the fix needs signing off, so we are still none the wiser.

[tom74]

Yup. my dad got his this afternoon, just read it now actually. Looks like they've sent out letters explaining that they still don't know exactly what's going on. They say in the letter that the cars still need testing and the fix needs signing off, so we are still none the wiser.

same here....also they say that objective are to not affect bhp and mpg however they cannot give final confirmation as yet as all need to be measured first, definitely I'm not queuing for that!!!

[fuzzybunny]

My letter did say that (if required) Skoda will keep you mobile while the work is carried out so you may get a free loan car.

I'm due a service next year so may leave it till then.

[Ryeman]

During the recent televised test match from Delhi btwn India and South Africa you could barely see across the ground........subsequently

India's Supreme Court has made rulings in regard to diesel emissions

Public servants are no longer to have the choice of a diesel powered car, and

All Delhi taxis are to run on CNG by MARCH !

(The Car Connection 16 Dec)

Seems the SC is a defacto EPA

[lol-lol]

During the recent televised test match from Delhi btwn India and South Africa you could barely see across the ground........subsequently

India's Supreme Court has made rulings in regard to diesel emissions

Public servants are no longer to have the choice of a diesel powered car, and

All Delhi taxis are to run on CNG by MARCH !

(The Car Connection 16 Dec)

Seems the SC is a defacto EPA

 

It seems that the Conference of Parties in Paris was little more than a taking shop and it is in fact the dangerous levels of pollution in Beijing, Delhi and London Heathrow (where I oft work) etc that will be the mover to restrict diesel engines (without Selective Catalytic Reduction) as the cities have to halt work or in London's case may not be able to build a Third Runway, until the Nitrogen Oxides pollution is brought down to levels which does not harm health to acceptable levels.

 

Like Delhi those measures need to be taken to bring the pollution down and we know what to do so let us do it sooner rather than later to vastly reduce the toll and it could even have economic benefits if we can get on with the Third Runaway.  

Edited 18 December, 2015 by lol-lol

[Hoops65]

Hi,

 

I currently have a Shark Remap on my 2.0 170 TDi which is working fine for me.  I made an enquiry with Skoda Uk where I stand as the fix will wipe the remap.  I was told by the Skoda that the recall was purely optional, they would not reimburse any costs due to having the remap done again or travelling to have it fixed.

 

The person I spoke to said that the there was no real need to have the fix done, as all the fix would do would be to fix the testing mode, the nox levels during real life driving would remain the same as they are currently.

 

If they are just fixing the test mode then why go to all the effort etc, I think this is incorrect.

 

Has anyone else had a conversation with Skoda about this?

 

Thanks

Edited 21 December, 2015 by Hoops65

[Breezy_Pete]

You're right to doubt what you've been told.  There's nothing to fix about how the cars behave under test, they passed. That's fine. 

 

What's not OK (i.e. illegal) is that the software contains a mechanism to reduce the effectiveness of the emission controls outside test conditions, a 'defeat device'. When the car senses that it isn't in a test situation it 'defeats' aspects of the emission control strategy which allowed the car to be compliant in the test.  Please follow the link to the wiki page if you don't believe me.

 

Remove this and the car behaves all the time as it did during the test.  For reasons that only VW know in detail, this may not be ideal.

[lol-lol]

You're right to doubt what you've been told.  There's nothing to fix about how the cars behave under test, they passed. That's fine.   What's not OK (i.e. illegal) is that the software contains a mechanism to reduce the effectiveness of the emission controls outside test conditions, a 'defeat device'. When the car senses that it isn't in a test situation it 'defeats' aspects of the emission control strategy which allowed the car to be compliant in the test.  Please follow the link to the wiki page if you don't believe me.  Remove this and the car behaves all the time as it did during the test.  For reasons that only VW know in detail, this may not be ideal.

 

I think it is only dawning on me what you are reading in to this.  If I understand you right you are saying, and it seems perfectly logical, it is not the defeat sub-routine that is being removed from the engine management program but the other part of the program ie the bit when not under test and the test sub-routine will become the normal operating program for the road driving program lines being operated?

 

It will be interesting how the car will feel after the program amendment but also, and this is the important bit to me at least, that the change in such programs, and of course the general move to cleaner vehicles actually starts to reduce the NO and PM readings around Heathrow (and London, Birmingham etc) so we can, perhaps, get on with the Third Runaway and employing the extra tens of thousands of relatively well paid jobs, and giving British Industry the most efficient service to export their goods and compete on the world market.   We, may of course, have left the EU by 2018/9 and not have to conform the pollution levels in place but I for one would like to breath the cleanest air possible.  

Edited 21 December, 2015 by lol-lol

[tom74]

Hi,

 

I currently have a Shark Remap on my 2.0 170 TDi which is working fine for me.  I made an enquiry with Skoda Uk where I stand as the fix will wipe the remap.  I was told by the Skoda that the recall was purely optional, they would not reimburse any costs due to having the remap done again or travelling to have it fixed.

 

The person I spoke to said that the there was no real need to have the fix done, as all the fix would do would be to fix the testing mode, the nox levels during real life driving would remain the same as they are currently.

 

If they are just fixing the test mode then why go to all the effort etc, I think this is incorrect.

 

Has anyone else had a conversation with Skoda about this?

 

Thanks

haven't had any chat with them as yet but looks like I would keep my remap after reading your post

[Breezy_Pete]

You've nearly got it lol-lol. The defeat device is a software switch that invokes a different/worse set of calibrations/parameters for emissions strategy at any time except when the ECU decides it's under test scrutiny.  It's confusing 'cos of the definition and the way the rules are written. Instead of saying "you can't have special software in charge just for the test", they say, "you can't have something that actively worsens emissions behaviour compared to what was happening in the tests".

It's NOx, not just NO by the way; NO₂ is also included, the pair of them abbreviated for simplicity to NOx. 

Edited 21 December, 2015 by Wino

[Ryeman]

Without the 'cheat' it's a dirty engine that has to be made clean enough to pass a certification test by A vehicle without 'it'.

[67igor1]

VW needs to fix testing mod... mean leave it ON at all time... that mean all engine restrictions aply at all time...

[Ootohere]

'DAS AUTO'  No More.   

 

That is it, their 'Fix',   change the image, change the slogan, sorted,

 nothing to see, move along now.

Move employees around, spin and media manipulation and regain trust and customers.

 

Maybe just some clear, truthful and informative announcements now and into the New Year,

and setting out clearly to those in their employment at customer services and dealerships in the UK would be of greater value in getting the trust of owners and future owners of Volkswagen Group vehicles.

Edited 22 December, 2015 by GoneOffskiroottoot

[lol-lol]

You've nearly got it lol-lol. The defeat device is a software switch that invokes a different/worse set of calibrations/parameters for emissions strategy at any time except when the ECU decides it's under test scrutiny.  It's confusing 'cos of the definition and the way the rules are written. Instead of saying "you can't have special software in charge just for the test", they say, "you can't have something that actively worsens emissions behaviour compared to what was happening in the tests".

It's NOx, not just NO by the way; NO₂ is also included, the pair of them abbreviated for simplicity to NOx. 

 

NO laughing matter.

[fuzzybunny]

Without the 'cheat' it's a dirty engine that has to be made clean enough to pass a certification test by A vehicle without 'it'.

My Yeti just passed its first MOT last week. So not really a dirty engine in UK terms but certainly would be in US terms!

 

So from what I can gather from this thread is that the 'fix' would most likely leave the car in permanent 'cheat test' mode so it would pass any US or Euro test conditions.

What we still don't know though is if the 'fix' would have any effect on performance, mpg etc, and we will not know that until we have the fix done.

So non the wiser, personally I cant see any point in having the fix done as my car has passed the UK MOT so it is 'clean' in UK terms, what more do I need to do?

[cheezemonkhai]

This had completely destroyed my confidence in VW.

 

Yes I have an EU5+ (EA288 engine) car, which means it's not affected, but if they can't communicate with their customers after messing up on this scale, what can they do right?

Edited 24 December, 2015 by cheezemonkhai

[Breezy_Pete]

@ fuzzybunny: "as my car has passed the UK MOT so it is 'clean' in UK terms" Partly true, except MOT doesn't measure the dirtiness that's relevant here, NOx.

It's the type approval testing (EU5 etc.) that is meant to give our cars a 'cleanliness' in this respect. You probably don't neeed to do anything, but that's not because your car is clean, it's because it wasn't your fault, it was VW's.

 

 

Someone with VCDS who is going to get the fix should do some logging now and afterwards. EGR activation percentage would be an obvious parameter to compare before/after. (I seem to remember reading on tdiclub that this is reported oddly by VCDS as 100-real percentage, for some reason). I also vaguely remember reading something about post-cat lambda sensor readings giving some clues about what is going on with NOx trap regenerations, so any/all lambda readings available would also probably be good things to log.  Diesel engines with lambda sensors, whatever next?

[Ryeman]

My Yeti just passed its first MOT last week. So not really a dirty engine in UK terms but certainly would be in US terms!

 

So from what I can gather from this thread is that the 'fix' would most likely leave the car in permanent 'cheat test' mode so it would pass any US or Euro test conditions.

What we still don't know though is if the 'fix' would have any effect on performance, mpg etc, and we will not know that until we have the fix done.

So non the wiser, personally I cant see any point in having the fix done as my car has passed the UK MOT so it is 'clean' in UK terms, what more do I need to do?

An MOT does not access NOx emissions, just smoke it seems, so not relevant.

An example has to meet the 'then' standards without the cheat to re-certify the EA189.

But who is going to bother having their performance/economy compromised if it's not a mandatory recall?.

[67igor1]

So non the wiser, personally I cant see any point in having the fix done as my car has passed the UK MOT so it is 'clean' in UK terms, what more do I need to do?

It isn't clean by UK law... Your car model certification for EU countries has been "cheated", so that mean isn't valid... Should be off road...

 

Another way:

If you will  "cheat" your insurance company and you will have an accident... by law your policy is fake... mean your car hasn't got any insurance...

You are guilty...

Edited 23 December, 2015 by 67igor1

[67igor1]

An MOT does not access NOx emissions, just smoke it seems, so not relevant.

An example has to meet the 'then' standards without the cheat to re-certify the EA189.

But who is going to bother having their performance/economy compromised if it's not a mandatory recall?.

VW Group can send a list VIN cars to DVLA ...

[Ootohere]

Can they, and are they, and what does that mean?

DVSA can get a 'Recall'  on the vehicles then, but there is no Compulsory Recall, and 'No Safety Issue',

in fact the UK Government Agency seems to be rather lax on many matters including those that are Safety Critical 

like the Vauxhall cars that can catch fire.  They let the Manufacturers lead them on what needs doing, 

or what the Manufacturer tells them.

http://gov.uk/check-if-a-vehicle-has-been-recalled

eg

http://autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/vw-uk-why-we-dont-need-dsg-recall

Maybe read the first comment by 'bad press'.

http://skoda.co.nz/news/dsg-service-campaign

 

The VW VIN System is that good that you can go to a Volkswagen Group Dealership and they can Input your VIN or REG No,

and supply you the wrong part for Servicing your car correctly, or they can even fail to correctly tell you the service schedule / guidelines, and that can be at a Service Desk or from Customer Services Call Handlers / CS Managers,

then even fail to service your car properly, and the 'Trained Technicians' mess up the Fixed or Variable Servicing, Oil changes / Service Check periods. Your car leaves a Dealership with messages that will later appear later 

that is something rather different from what you have bought and paid for.

(simple fix, they get someone that knows how to use the System to correct what the other trained technician got wrong.)

 

VW even have 'Software Updates' and enhancements they have applied at 'servicing'  that then have a vehicle 

running less efficiently than when it went in. (Maybe removed or attempt a fix on what ever was the issue that had many Warranty Claims coming in.)

*Lots of that seems to be happening in the past few weeks in UK Dealerships.*

http://master.skoda-auto.com/mini-apps/recall-actions

 

If VW have now got good and reliable Computer Systems and Knowledge of Vehicles produced then good.

& if the DVLA / DVSA have a decent system that can track vehicles and when they had personal plates etc, 

then their MOT History Checker System can be improved, because right now its pants.

Edited 23 December, 2015 by GoneOffskiroottoot

[cheezemonkhai]

There was a rumour that it'll be an MOT fail to not have had the update.

[Ootohere]

?

Who did you hear the rumour from,

and where did they, and is it a rumour from VW, DVSA / DVLA, 

or is it just something people are spreading a rumour about?