Advanced Driving Technique - Indcating...

[WesBrooks]

Ok, that topic headline looks like I'm taking the **** from the start but that's not intentional!

 

I've been looking into the various different advanced driving technique sites and had come across a guidance that confused me. Perhaps some members of these institutions could enlighten me a little!

 

I always indicate intention of changing lane or exiting roundabouts unless the action of selecting the indicators would limit my control of the vehicle (eg I've had to break hard to below 10 while in 3rd in a Diesel on a multi exit roundabout to avoid someone cutting me up and need to change gear to allow reasonable progress off the roundabout), or I think there is a risk the indication would be miss interpretted.

 

On a motorway the IAM tips seem to suggest indicating to enter a motorway, or change lane was optional when you thought there road was clear? I always attempt to drive knowing that others and critically I, myself can make mistakes. In the examples where you choose not to indicate is it inconcievable that you have made a mistake and missed someone? Someone could have moved from your near side to off side blind spot as you were checking you mirrors? I always though the practice of always indicating - while a little redundant at times - gives others an extra second or so to hit the horn for the 'hang on, I'm here!' alert.

Edited 25 November, 2015 by WesBrooks

[vxh26]

The whole idea of not indicating when entering a roundabout with the intention of leaving at 12 o'clock seems insane to me.

 

How on earth does one distinguish between someone going straight ahead and someone who can't be asked to indicate? This is especially true in the case of "large" roundabouts - e.g. the junction between the A66 and the A591 just North of Keswick.

[KBPhoto]

The whole idea of not indicating when entering a roundabout with the intention of leaving at 12 o'clock seems insane to me.

I'm not having a go as I can see both sides, but which way do you indicate?

If it was a crossroads and you were going straight across, you wouldn't indicate.

If I'm following a car NOT indicating I give it a wide birth as the ABSENCE of any indication doesn't tell me what the car is going to do.

[WesBrooks]

Think the high way code for large multi lane round abouts says indicating is not advised until you wish to exit. In these situations your lane disapline should inform others of your intention. I would adapt that slightly to say that while in the far right lane of the round about continue indicating right. If for example you are in the middle lane of three then any indication could be interpreted as an intention to change lane which could confuse others and impeed the flow on the roundabout. Exiting without indicating is very frustrating for people trying to get on the roundabout, but all the same you can't assume someone indicating to exit will do so.

 

Granted many people display very poor lane disapline when either they've made a mistake and got in the wrong lane or are insufferably impatient who think they've the right to progress at their desired rate at the expense of other's safety.

 

Edit: My main gripe was the suggestion that indicating when you wish to change lane in a situation where it is permissable, generally acceptable, and highly unlikely to be misinterpretted to do so. Eg, entering, exiting, or changing lane on a motorway is optional.

Edited 25 November, 2015 by WesBrooks

[Paul007]

The way I see it is "is there any benefit to me indicating" ? If there's no-one behind then no. If you're going straight on at a roundabout, you'd be in the correct lane anyway and could signal your intentions to make clear if "there is someone to benefit" from the signal. Just blindly going from A-B and signalling at everything, which is the DSA way, is wrong in the eyes of the IAM. My own opinion obviously.

[WesBrooks]

Just blindly going from A-B and signalling at everything, which is the DSA way, is wrong in the eyes of the IAM. My own opinion obviously.

 

This is kind of my point. I would assume that much of the driving techniques discussed are often about making many very small gains in safety and risk reduction as the big ones such as 'don't speed' are comman knowledge. Therefore why suggest indicating on lane change is optional, it only works against ensuring you are aware you can make mistakes and get things wrong. There is less to be gained from choosing not to indicate rather than always indicating?

[StevesTruck]

The way I see it is "is there any benefit to me indicating" ? If there's no-one behind then no. If you're going straight on at a roundabout, you'd be in the correct lane anyway and could signal your intentions to make clear if "there is someone to benefit" from the signal. Just blindly going from A-B and signalling at everything, which is the DSA way, is wrong in the eyes of the IAM. My own opinion obviously.

If you only drive a car, I'd agree with you, IAM and RoSPA on that one (I'm RoSPA trained). Because I drive commercials as well, I always indicate everything. My logic is based on anticipating a micra in my offside blindspot, a filtering bike in my nearside one, and an audi trying to get in the back.

[keystonedriving]

 Just blindly going from A-B and signalling at everything, which is the DSA way, is wrong in the eyes of the IAM. My own opinion obviously.

 

Actually, that isn't the DVSA way.  Although I haven't taught a learner for five years, these days I only work with experienced drivers, I always taught the maxim of 'is there any benefit from a signal here?' and never had any problems with examiners.  Too many signals tend to create background 'noise' and make it harder to distinguish the important signals from those which are not.

 

Just as big a problem is getting the timing right, that can completely change a signal's apparent meaning.  Many of the 'I always signal out of habit' brigade tend to be very poor at timing their signals.

 

In short, those who are concerned with safety on the road, and that includes the DVSA, are singing from the same hymn sheet.  There might be some slight differences in emphasis, but the basis is the same.

Edited 25 November, 2015 by keystonedriving

[Paul007]

^ so they don't teach mirror signal manoeuvre at every conceivable point anymore then ? 

[WesBrooks]

Just as big a problem is getting the timing right, that can completely change a signal's apparent meaning.  Many of the 'I always signal out of habit' brigade tend to be very poor at timing their signals.

 

Brigade? I can't see the harm it causes. Prolonged signalling and not cancelling signals is a seperate issue. Merging the two is a broad sweep.

 

Generally aim for three flashes before making a move.

 

Edit: As for noise in the lane change situation this is not a valid point. To the best of the drivers knowledge the situation is clear to make the move, and by the situations described when this optional signal is described in the tips the driver is not aware of any one else nearby. Therefore there are no other signals, and so no 'noise'.

Edited 25 November, 2015 by WesBrooks

[Chriswright03]

As a general rule you should not drive by habit.  So indicating everywhere because you think you should doesn't mean you are a good driver.

 

I was taught and taught others to indicate if required and decide by observation of the conditions at that time.  I also didn't mind people indicating if they didn't have to but what I did object to was indicating when it could be misleading. 

 

So if someone else can benefit by an indication then it should be done but if no one will then why bother?  A good example is indicating to return to your own side of the road after you have passed a single vehicle.  Why bother?  It is obvious that you would return to the correct side of the road so why indicate to show it?

The whole idea of not indicating when entering a roundabout with the intention of leaving at 12 o'clock seems insane to me.

 

How on earth does one distinguish between someone going straight ahead and someone who can't be asked to indicate? This is especially true in the case of "large" roundabouts - e.g. the junction between the A66 and the A591 just North of Keswick.

 

Whilst I accept that indication at roundabouts is generally poor what you are saying is that those that are doing it right should change to compensate for those that are doing it wrong.  Where does that stop if you go down that route?

If you only drive a car, I'd agree with you, IAM and RoSPA on that one (I'm RoSPA trained). Because I drive commercials as well, I always indicate everything. My logic is based on anticipating a micra in my offside blindspot, a filtering bike in my nearside one, and an audi trying to get in the back.

Steve makes a very valid point.  When driving the bus I always used to indicate because it was never possible to say with 100% clarity what was behind me.

[WesBrooks]

Appollogies, just saw the advanced driving section of the forum above. I'll know for next time!

 

I agree about missleading indication. Where lane disapline on a round about shows intent then that suffices in my opinon.

 

From the discussions here I'm convinced that I've not missed anything and the concerns around 'signal noise' caused by what I'm advocating is short lived (3 flashes ish) while as far as I'm aware there is no one likely there, and I'd be surprised if any one was irritied by it. If they were I'm sure they'd really be suffering stress at some of the driving I see on a day to day basis! Thanks for the comments.

[FUBAR]

The way I see it is "is there any benefit to me indicating" ? If there's no-one behind then no. If you're going straight on at a roundabout, you'd be in the correct lane anyway and could signal your intentions to make clear if "there is someone to benefit" from the signal. Just blindly going from A-B and signalling at everything, which is the DSA way, is wrong in the eyes of the IAM. My own opinion obviously.

 

 

Actually, that isn't the DVSA way.  Although I haven't taught a learner for five years, these days I only work with experienced drivers, I always taught the maxim of 'is there any benefit from a signal here?' and never had any problems with examiners.  Too many signals tend to create background 'noise' and make it harder to distinguish the important signals from those which are not.

 

Just as big a problem is getting the timing right, that can completely change a signal's apparent meaning.  Many of the 'I always signal out of habit' brigade tend to be very poor at timing their signals.

 

In short, those who are concerned with safety on the road, and that includes the DVSA, are singing from the same hymn sheet.  There might be some slight differences in emphasis, but the basis is the same.

I remember during my category B driving test getting 2 minors in a row after a fairly good drive so far. They were for indicating to change lanes on a dual carriageway when it was not necessary to do so. I got 1 for indicating right to overtake another vehicle (vehicle to the rear about 100 meters behind) and one for indicating left afterwards moving back into lane 1 (ultimately no need to have done so). At the time I thought it was a bit stingy, but I still passed so wasn't going to question the bloke It was a good thing though, as highlighting it to me allowed continued learning even from the practical examination itself. 

 

On the habitual indication brigades timing etc. I always look on in dismay when I see a vehicle in front of me approaching a point ahead where they wish to turn and decide that 1/4 of a mile before they should indicate and then pass several other possible turns before hand...... At the same time I prefer those sort over the more common 'what indicator' ****s here who just slam on and turn. A tractor indicating to turn right rather early with an impatient marked police car behind, the driver decided that the tractor had left indicator on by mistake... He changed his mind mid overtake  

 

 

If you only drive a car, I'd agree with you, IAM and RoSPA on that one (I'm RoSPA trained). Because I drive commercials as well, I always indicate everything. My logic is based on anticipating a micra in my offside blindspot, a filtering bike in my nearside one, and an audi trying to get in the back.

That's exactly how I see and do it too, there is no question in my mind about as clearly as possible indicating your intentions in larger vehicles and I always do so. Current generation blind spot mirror systems are all well and good but they do not cover everything and what they do cover you cannot physically be observing at all times etc etc. Never worth scraping a cyclist out of your wheel arch, badgers are bad enough!  

[Richf]

The whole idea of not indicating when entering a roundabout with the intention of leaving at 12 o'clock seems insane to me.

 

How on earth does one distinguish between someone going straight ahead and someone who can't be asked to indicate? This is especially true in the case of "large" roundabouts - e.g. the junction between the A66 and the A591 just North of Keswick.

 

 

How on earth does one distinguish between someone who is in the left hand lane of the roundabout indicating right and someone who is actually turning right? People that indicate right and then left when going straight on is one of my bug bears

 

I am not in the habit of indicating when I am going straight on , being on a roundabout would make no difference although I do signal left when exiting the roundabout

 

Much like the others I indicate only when its of use to other drivers and when it is to make my intentions clear, this right and then left business is confusing at best.

[FUBAR]

I like the German logic with regards to indication on roundabouts. You do not indicate at all until in line with out own point to indicate your intention to exit the roundabout. This eliminates the possibility for confusion and lowers the risk of pointless near misses and collisions from misinterpretation or misleading indications which people act upon. As mentioned above, it's highly annoying here when people do not indicate their intentions, but at the same time we should not be taking them as gospel, which basically contradicts itself. Drivers should indicate, but you shouldn't trust it...  

[WesBrooks]

On the habitual indication brigades timing etc. I always look on in dismay when I see a vehicle in front of me approaching a point ahead where they wish to turn and decide that 1/4 of a mile before they should indicate and then pass several other possible turns before hand...... At the same time I prefer those sort over the more common 'what indicator' ****s here who just slam on and turn. A tractor indicating to turn right rather early with an impatient marked police car behind, the driver decided that the tractor had left indicator on by mistake... He changed his mind mid overtake

 

What you describe is missleading indication as well as prolonged indication not what I was originally trying to ask about. As you say there are many cases where this can be dangerous. I was referring to three flashes as you pull on to the motorway, or change lane.

 

Completely with you on straight ahead on a round about.

Edited 25 November, 2015 by WesBrooks

[FUBAR]

What you describe is missleading indication as well as prolonged indication not what I was originally trying to ask about. As you say there are many cases where this can be dangerous. I was referring to three flashes as you pull on to the motorway, or change lane.

 

Completely with you on straight ahead on a round about.

 

My post was in response to the point in the comment I quoted, not your specific original post. A similar topic some time ago came up in the advanced driving section of the forum and at the time I was in contact with Peter Rodger (IAM cheif examiner), not sure if he still is in that post. Specifically I sought some clarification on the advice IAM was giving on lane changes on multi lane carriageways such as dual carriageways and motorways, as nation wide there was some differing advice surfacing from the institutes members. This was covering indication, mirror and physical blind spot checks (shoulder check etc). Peter took the time to give a long detailed reply in which he said, yes but no, but yes, but no and kind of went round in circles on the topic several times. He did highlight that there can be no black and white answer to such things as basically it all changes by so many variable factors at the time. I think this one falls within the same situational fluidity as such. 

 

Your point on the matter is much the same as my concerns as to how the advice as written could be practicably implemented or suggested as firm good advice. The whole if you 'think' it's clear, but obviously not covering the side of being sure and depending how you read it, is it just saying 'if you think it's clear just wing it'? What I would suggest personally, is that should a driver have any doubt or uncertainty as to if it is clear or safe to merge into another lane, begin observations to ascertain if that is the case or not and gain/regain full situational awareness first. This is highly unlikely to be acceptable to most as they are in a position where they have not already done so and are approaching a point where they view the merge to be required imminently and most would rather play the odds game than give up a single second of their time or mph of their pace. To take the time to complete observations will likely require a reduction in their own pace and general flow. I can understand where the likes of the IAM are coming from with the need to or not to indicate hinging on the drivers competence in observations having been fulfilled completely. However, none of us should really ever put ourselves or others in a position where we indicate merely to give someone else we can't be bothered to look for who might be there, the chance to save the day. Taking the time to do negate this, is likely the best practice that I can think of.

 

In practice the best any of us can do is try our best to look out for our own safety whilst driving and that of others impartially. If we all could comply exactly to the best of driving advice out there, the roads would work so much better. However since we are all selfish, lazy, arrogant centres of our own universes, this will never ever happen. :(  

Edited 25 November, 2015 by FUBAR

[devonutopia]

The whole idea of not indicating when entering a roundabout with the intention of leaving at 12 o'clock seems insane to me.

 

 

 

Afraid to me (as a Gold pass RoSPA driver) the concept of someone indicating at all going on to a roundabout going straight on is insane to me.  Indicating either left or right will simply be giving misguided signals to everyone else and lead to a much higher chance of an accident. (Sorry "collision" as they are now officially called.  Apparently "accidents" suggest they are preventable.... [sigh] )

 

The proper way is to not indicate going on to the roundabout and indicate going off the roundabout once you are passed the last exit your left signal might indicate you are taking.

 

In an ideal world you would be in a straight on only lane, but appreciate on minor roundabouts with single lane entry and exits, this is often not possible.

 

Going left, indicate left, going straight on (or anything that could be construed as straight on) don't indicate until past last exit before your exit, going right - indicate right, repeat the left signal exiting roundabout in same manner as going straight on.

 

Here end'eth my lesson

Edited 25 November, 2015 by devonutopia

[FUBAR]

Afraid to me (as a Gold pass RoSPA driver)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Don't do it man, that's the sort of line all the holier than thou IAM wombles come out with! 

[devonutopia]

 

 

 

 

 

Don't do it man, that's the sort of line all the holier than thou IAM wombles come out with! 

 

I was attempting to "indicate" I have had training beyond what most people have, not be a "more holier than thou" bit of snobbery.  I don't care if you are IAM or RoSPA - they are the same to me and just mean you have attained another level.  I'm on to HPC next anyway. 

[FUBAR]

I was attempting to "indicate" I have had training beyond what most people have, not be a "more holier than thou" bit of snobbery.  I don't care if you are IAM or RoSPA - they are the same to me and just mean you have attained another level.  I'm on to HPC next anyway. 

 

I am pro RoSPA and ever so slightly negative on the IAM front historically (changes have been made though which now brings it more in line with RoSPA which I approve of though). RoSPA gold is certainly a step above the basic IAM pass/fail. Not that one is better than the other, just that there is such a gap between a recognisable standard without grading and the old system of pass it in 1982 and your somehow able to lay claim to it for life was a total joke and where a lot of the womble class spawned from. HPC I have not been anywhere near, there are friggin loads of advanced institutions as such these days, it's good to see and now they are able to market ones towards certain types of drivers. Good or bad as an idea that some may find that, to me it means the number of those willing to learn is increased and thus a very positive thing. 

 

I have had my differences with RoSPA too though, just not many:

Pic from another thread I posted earlier in the year 

 

Edited 25 November, 2015 by FUBAR

[faboka vrs]

Apparently "accidents" suggest they are preventable.... [sigh] )

:

Some are

[Paul007]

We aren't wombles by the way. 

[mac11irl]

I was taught the same as devonutopia says - indicate left after passing the last exit prior to your intended route.

Edit : typos.

Edited 25 November, 2015 by mac11irl

[Chriswright03]

We all should have been taught that Mac just some choose not to for whatever reason.