ezero1 device (CGON)

[fabdavrav]

29 minutes ago, Wino said:

What an unusual first post; I wonder who burntcrisps2 works for...

 

 

 

why not ask them...

 

they do state that "After delving deeper I am planning on getting this fitted to our diesel Yeti ( EA189 emissions mod done)"

 

anyway it doesn't matter post count all that matters is facts......so disprove the ones & links etc if you think that the device is "snake oil".

 

[Breezy_Pete]

It was an open question not excluding 'them' or @ColinD for that matter.

I thought I'd already demonstrated the improbability of this device's efficacy by showing that the quantities of hydrogen/orthohydrogen/magic bean hydrogen were too miniscule to be taken seriously by anyone, without some sort of proper experimental data to back up the claims. Show me that data or I'll continue to disbelieve.  ☺

 

 

[fabdavrav]

10 minutes ago, Wino said:

It was an open question not excluding 'them' or @ColinD for that matter.

I thought I'd already demonstrated the improbability of this device's efficacy by showing that the quantities of hydrogen/orthohydrogen/magic bean hydrogen were too miniscule to be taken seriously by anyone, without some sort of proper experimental data to back up the claims. Show me that data or I'll continue to disbelieve.  ☺

 

 

 

I already linked to Emission Analytics who have test the device (specialists in this filed & know way more than you..).....also Eddie Stobart have trialed the device and noted 3%-7% better MPG & 25% to 50% reduction in adblue usage with the device....

 

Go argue with them..& their data....as you think you are right

[Breezy_Pete]

I'll gladly contact both tomorrow. ☺

[mac11irl]

Im not a hater, but i am skeptical.

Given wino's back of an envelope maths

And my reading of the results on cgon website, they only show the " reduction" percentage, not the before and after screen shots of the test equipment.

Also the mpg improvements are all shown as "customer testimonials".

 

Also EA's results are meaningless without peer reviewed verification...

Worth remembering that the US sugar industry actively bought research waaaay back to villify fat as the main dietary health risk and show sugar to be fine... which has now been shown to be horse $hite..

So an"independent" testing company paid to show results of a thing making the thing seem great isnt exactly a new thing..

 

Im open to bei g wrong, and this being fantastic but given how often these results get claimed and then cant be repeated...  think Terracleaning etc...

[mac11irl]

Actually, not being a smart arse...

 

Couldnt @Tech1e maybe verify the claim regarding Morgan Motor Company being used as a testimonial?? 

Also seem to recall @Llanigraham knowing a few guys working there?

[Gizmo]

Multiple threads merged

[Bertie90]

£500 is a bit too much thought. If it was half that i would have tried but that's a huge chunk for something that is controversial (as in some believe it works some don't). It would have been great to see a before and after the insides of an engine. 

[Llanigraham]

2 hours ago, fabdavrav said:

 

I already linked to Emission Analytics who have test the device (specialists in this filed & know way more than you..).....also Eddie Stobart have trialed the device and noted 3%-7% better MPG & 25% to 50% reduction in adblue usage with the device....

 

Go argue with them..& their data....as you think you are right

 

Who paid Emission Analytics for the testing?
Where are the independent test results?

Where is the evidence from Stobbart?

[mac11irl]

https://chem.libretexts.org/Core/Physical_and_Theoretical_Chemistry/Quantum_Mechanics/11%3A_Molecules/Ortho_and_Para_hydrogen

 

At anything above the temperature of the liquification of air.. any group of hydrogen atoms will form 75% ortho hydrogen molecules. Its beyond quantum mechanics to get more than that. So the claim of figuring out how to make the "correct" type of hydrogen is a bit of a stretch. If i dropped 2 leads in a pint of tap water connected to a 9v battery ill make 75% ortho hydrogen instantly. The electrolyte theyre selling probably does make the reaction faster than just distilled water and MAY be capable of rendering the by-products (oxygen, chlorine, flourine etc in most tap waters) inert or whatever.

Also, its not clear.. is it 250mls of the "special sauce" every 6000mls diluted in xlitres of water? Or is it just "the sauce" you top up with. If it was diluted in say 5l of water, that would be a huge amount of additional hydrogen making it a bit more plausible..

[burntcrisps2]

I don't work for anyone... in no way affiliated with cgon or other related companies.

I'm semi-retired, an electronics engineer by training, been in service management for decades, travelled and worked around the world and worked in every industry you can think of for major companies like HP, GE, Malvern Insts. etc. Have driven many diesel company cars from all manufs over the years. Seems odd that I have to defend myself in an open forum which ought to be more welcoming of intelligent individuals.

 

Maybe my first post here, but I have been on this forum and many other forums for years.

Generally I have found the info on this forum very useful and all that I have required to solve the few issues I have found with our Yeti.

Basically that’s been the best options for alloys and winter tyres.

Got a set of used Passat alloys and fitted new Nokian tyres which have worked brilliantly through the dark season.

Disk brakes badly corroded on the rear at a ridiculous low mileage.

Fronts eventually had the same issue, replaced with Pagid products all round, been much better and lasting longer also.

Only other issue has been the aircon failed a couple of years ago, which was a warranty garage fix.

Other than that car has had no issues.

 

Yeti had emissions fix done late last year as part of Skoda service as had a 5 year service plan when purchased car.

At time had not found anything on web to suggest it was not in any way detrimental and decided to have it done.

Since then of course have noticed more regenerations as fan often running when car parked for long time and also much ado online regarding EGR DPF failures, etc. etc.

 

We have always planned on keeping any new car we buy for 10years and as such need to ensure it performs with minimal issue until it gets replaced with an EV.

We shan’t be buying another diesel or petrol car again.

 

So having seen the cgon ezero1 product and the information relating to it I am very interested in seeing what this can achieve.

I contacted a local garage who it turns out have been involved in the development work of the product working with BT fleet vehicles and cgon.

Again not surprisingly this is all fleet related as that’s the biggest benefit to haulage/operators and is to be expected.

The guy who owns/runs the garage business spoke to me and although they are now not involved and won’t be installing via his business, he has it fitted to his own petrol vehicle and had nothing but praise for its benefits.

I have also contacted cgon directly and spoken with them to find a local installer along with has this been done with the infamous EA189 engines in the VAG arena.

 

The technical people will be getting back to me and it would appear some 3 or 4 weeks before local garages are online with approval to fit, although there maybe an option to have this done sooner via a mobile solution.

I have all the mpg data from all our vehicles so I will be able to see any mpg changes.

Since the EA189 DPF seems to be a key issue I would also like to get some data sucked off the vehicle so I can see how that is currently performing so have before and after info.

 

If I go ahead and get this fitted, I will post back any useful data, but I will only do that for those who visit forums like this for like minded individuals who seek to give unbiased views to others who are looking for help and guidance in their quest to find information from either side of the equation. I will do the same on some of the renewable forums that I frequent.

 

A life lesson that I learnt early on is to put yourself in the other persons shoes and fully understand the situation from the other side of the fence.

Something that seems many on here might like to try and do rather than being such grumpy old men who basically poo poo anything that they love to call snake oil.

 

If only here in the UK we had a culture of embracing new technology, rather than being so scathing, we might actually have entrepreneurs and inventors who stay in this country and we all enjoy the benefits of a booming economy.

 

I only wish I had come up with some brilliant idea that I could have brought to market.

 

 

[ColinD]

@burntcrisps2 thanks for more info than I know what to do with! The who do you work for comes mainly from past experience, I'd not take anything from it. We do see quite a few people post as a pretend customer, not good for 'reliable information'. This does skew peoples views and naturally, someone has to ask. Because I believe, most of us Skoda owners like to question or think about the info we have... otherwise we'd pay more for the Audi badge right, because it's better?

 

I was penning in my notebook yesterday about removing join date and post count as it's a false metric. People will and do measure by them, no one has any idea how a few words could be written by someone with 1days knowledge or 40years research and design skill. It's a great thing when forum text works, but it's so, so easily misunderstood too. Each post should be in it's own context, god knows I post some junk some days.

 

Unbiased views and interest are what we're about. To maintain that, we must also allow biased and thus either end of the spectrum of views to exist. That invariably leads to a bit of tension, we could all do without it, but it's present anywhere, except places like logans run. I frequently confuse the heck out of folk when I flip to the other side of my position in an argument. Or I ask what weakness there is in their 'solution'. If they cannot give me at least one weakness, then they have not thought about it enough.

 

I've spent the last few years writing up ideas, working them over, figuring out how what who, then ultimately rejecting them as too new, too niche or don't have faith in spending my savings to pursue... Annoyingly I've seen a couple of close but not as good derivates get investment, not many ideas are unique anymore. So I fully echo the whole embrace new technology. It's not a new thing, the harrier, the breathalyser, hovercrafts all formed here but had to be 'done' by another body to gain acceptance.

 

I think tomorrows generation has enough; just, bright cookies to embrace the opportunity, the rest of us with age I think ill barring a few, naturally question more. We've been burnt I guess too many times to be like our 5year old self who is excited not by the lego, but the box it came in.

 

I hope you do share the information. I think EV adoption en-masse is a bit away. So stuff like this will have at least 20year life span. IIRC UPS have converted some vans for London, they can only plug 8 at a time in though otherwise their power demand would overload the industrial park area, forget how many they actually had at that warehouse, but it's far more than 8, probably hundreds.

[mac11irl]

My first post said im not a hater, just skeptical until verified evidence is available. If this is genuine - happy days, i may be interested.

 

But... all the sciency stuff ive read about it just seems like marketing blumph and pseudoscience. I even ended up stuck in a few "free energy" and diy engineering fuel saver forums. Where the memebers have been discussing how to boost "Ortho hydrogen" since the dawn of message boards.. back to 2012, and they still have no answers beyond "maybe magnets?

The only cgon published results are tables showing post install figures and "percentage improvements", from one company (regardless of reputation) hires by the developer to make them look brilliant... just like so many other gizmos, gadgets, and ripoffs, most of which someone here has tried or experienced and found to be hyped up uselessness...

 

Burntcrisps says he spoke to a local garage who worked on the development, but ISNT becoming an installer? Surely if its that good they would getting on board early on? Theres loads of different companies being mentioned as "working with" or "trialling" but no pictures showing the units in use by these companies or PR stuff being peddled? Im not a marketing guru, but surely if youre confident in something youve got involved in helping with, you would be using your company's involvement in said small startup green tech development company as a PR coup?

[burntcrisps2]

The local garage I spoke to, his business has changed direction since being involved early on, hence he said he wanted to concentrate on that, otherwise he would have been an installer and already championing the product.

[Ootohere]

Edd China was championing a certain product, many respect Ed China's knowledge,  i seem to remember he had a financial / commercial interest in the product /franchise.

(maybe that is wrong, wrongly reported by media or social media, SO BEST I DO NOT COMMIT DEFAMATION, but this is the sort of thing that needs checking out, because the 2nd biggest car manufacturer in the world wanted to be the biggest and turns out 'the senior management' investors & employees never knew the company was rotten to the core and that they were lying cheating barstewards, (NO DEFAMATION THERE.. Reputation is sh!te anyway except in their Partner Publishing / Media / Advertising companies, See, Hear, Say no Evil.)

or a 'few techs' were, then a few dozens, then maybe many more.)

Edited 7 September, 2017 by Headinawayoffski

[fabdavrav]

On ‎06‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 11:55, burntcrisps2 said:

I don't work for anyone... in no way affiliated with cgon or other related companies.

I'm semi-retired, an electronics engineer by training, been in service management for decades, travelled and worked around the world and worked in every industry you can think of for major companies like HP, GE, Malvern Insts. etc. Have driven many diesel company cars from all manufs over the years. Seems odd that I have to defend myself in an open forum which ought to be more welcoming of intelligent individuals.

BIG post of info

 

Thanks for that..& yes as you state you shouldn't have to..but unfortunately quite a few people on the web in other forums & even this forum do not believe anything unless someone with masses of post/yrs on the forum states it...Unfortunately those people tend to rely on this fact to prove their claims....

 

I only believe in independent provable facts...& I doubt that either CGON or emission Analytics will publish their full data at the moment...so just the headlines...

 

I wonder how many of the "I want the full data" brigade ask their supermarket for the tests to prove the nutritional value of their food...or ask Skoda for the full data from the fuel test labs for mpg etc...

 

What I have dug into on this device based on hydrogen etc. that is not from CGON looks promising....

 

go back 20yrs & talk about graphine, modern smart phones etc & people will call snake oil...

 

EDIT:-

 

PS to mods thanks for merging my thread with the other older one which I did not see initially..

Edited 7 September, 2017 by fabdavrav

[Ootohere]

 

http://emissionsanalytics.com/the-ea-team 

http://equaindex.com 

When the Patent holders are ready to launch the proven product in a big way i am sure that 'Emission Analytics' will give all the results required 

& Lord Michael Heseltines Haymarket company Media Group will have their publications like Autocar, What Car , Pistonheads etc running the articles and maybe even they will have the adverts for the product.

 

Just a thought,

Why was Autocar, What Car & other Haymarket Media Group Publications Editors & Journalists never aware of the VW Group's Defeat Device use long before 2015, 

they surely had friends with all the gear and some idea to somethings not adding up?

 

Possibly update to old News, 

Founder & Director of the Testing Company who has tested 90% of new cars on the road (that will be examples of 90% of the models, not millions of cars...)

 has a company who's Chairman & other employees in the company used to work for Lord Heseltine's Media Company which became the biggest Motoring Publishers in the UK & Lord Heseltime helped in VW buying Bentley, and was an Adviser to David Cameron MP / PM on Industry & the Motor Industry, and yet when the UK Government / Philip Hammond MP Secretary of State for Transport (2010-11)

were informed of 'HIGH EMISSIONS' / Cheating, 

not much happened and nothing was published in UK Motoring Magazines. Possibly.

Volkswagen wasn't the only company rigging emission levels, says expert _ The Independent.mhtml

Eric Verdon-Roe honoured with PPA Marcus Morris Award 2010.mhtml

Edited 7 September, 2017 by Headinawayoffski

[burntcrisps2]

On 03/09/2017 at 21:06, Bertie90 said:

£500 is a bit too much thought. If it was half that i would have tried but that's a huge chunk for something that is controversial (as in some believe it works some don't). It would have been great to see a before and after the insides of an engine. 

Its £459 fully fitted.

[Breezy_Pete]

That's actually the saving grace of the thing. It's too expensive for almost anyone to gamble on, prior to some real evidence that it isn't 'snake oil'.

[burntcrisps2]

On 03/09/2017 at 21:34, mac11irl said:

https://chem.libretexts.org/Core/Physical_and_Theoretical_Chemistry/Quantum_Mechanics/11%3A_Molecules/Ortho_and_Para_hydrogen

 

At anything above the temperature of the liquification of air.. any group of hydrogen atoms will form 75% ortho hydrogen molecules. Its beyond quantum mechanics to get more than that. So the claim of figuring out how to make the "correct" type of hydrogen is a bit of a stretch. If i dropped 2 leads in a pint of tap water connected to a 9v battery ill make 75% ortho hydrogen instantly. The electrolyte theyre selling probably does make the reaction faster than just distilled water and MAY be capable of rendering the by-products (oxygen, chlorine, flourine etc in most tap waters) inert or whatever.

Also, its not clear.. is it 250mls of the "special sauce" every 6000mls diluted in xlitres of water? Or is it just "the sauce" you top up with. If it was diluted in say 5l of water, that would be a huge amount of additional hydrogen making it a bit more plausible..

cgo have replied to me and said... The ezero1 tank has a tank capacity of 760ml, the 250ml is just to top the tank up after 6,000miles has been covered.  It is £5.00 for a 250ml pouch – thanks for highlighting the error on the website. 

[mac11irl]

Okay, so its using 250ml per 6k. In which case @Wino's fag box maths isnt wrong... they just want you make sure every 6k the tank is full. So unless theres some other source of hydrogen available that we dont know about (catalysing and spliting moisture in the air maybe?) Within the unit, i dont understand how it claims getting so much "gain" from such a miniscule amount of bonus hydrogen. 

 

Unless the "tuning" of the unit after fitting and checking suddenly means you need top up every 1000mls...or the RN engineer figured out how to

Consistently break the laws of thermodynamics and quantum mechanics..

 

 

[Aspman]

Que? The quantum spin of a hydrogen nucleus doesn't affect it's chemical properties.

 

And quantum spin doesn't actually mean 'spin' in the classical sense. Quantum spin is more akin to polarisation of light than rotation of an object.

[Breezy_Pete]

Realised this morning that there's a much easier way of doing the calculation that I did the other day.

 

Call it 250g of water, divide that by 9 because - by mass - the oxygen content of water is 16/18ths and you get 27.8g hydrogen per 6000 miles

 

That's 0.0046g per mile, pretty close to what my earlier sums came up with.

[mac11irl]

1 hour ago, Aspman said:

Que? The quantum spin of a hydrogen nucleus doesn't affect it's chemical properties.

 

And quantum spin doesn't actually mean 'spin' in the classical sense. Quantum spin is more akin to polarisation of light than rotation of an object.

 

Allegedly the spin direction makes the molecules more/less energetic and thusly more efficient...

Its a big topic among the forums frequented by hydrogen system diy'ers... that makes no ultimate difference, but they seem happy to keep trying to convince themselves theyve worked out how to do it..

[chimaera]

42 minutes ago, mac11irl said:

 

Allegedly the spin direction makes the molecules more/less energetic and thusly more efficient...

Its a big topic among the forums frequented by hydrogen system diy'ers... that makes no ultimate difference, but they seem happy to keep trying to convince themselves theyve worked out how to do it..

They're clutching at straws in a vain attempt to shore up their ideas.

 

Chemically, hydrogen is hydrogen. There are some thermodynamic differences between the two, but these only come into play at cryogenic temperatures.

 

If we assume that the 250 ml of electrolyte consumed every 10000 km is water (it's most likely slightly acidified water) wino's calculations hold up. You get 28 g of hydrogen from 250 ml (=250 g) of water when it is fully electrolysed. So that's 2.8 mg/km.

 

My Superb can average 0.06 l/km fuel consumption at cruise on the motorway. Diesel has a density of about 830 g/l, so that fuel consumption is 49.8 g/l of diesel. If we make the assumption that diesel consists entirely of cetane with the chemical formula C16H34, we can estimate the amount of hydrogen contained in that much fuel as 7.5 g/km. Adding our electrolysed hydrogen to this gives 7.5028 g/km - in most engineering calculations, we'd ignore an increase that small as within the bounds of calculation error.

 

(Disclosure: I'm a researcher and sometime lecturer in chemical engineering)