But I don't get charged rent for my engine! No car maker leases their engine! It's still a running cost and it's more than a diesel. Worlds most expensive warrantee and breakdown too! Stop calculating on up front cost and calculate it on overall running costs.

 

Of course a Zoe is cheap up front, because you're only buying half a car, you have to pay for the battery forever.

 

I love the idea of electric cars but that guy in the zoe video is an idiot.

55 minutes ago, amwphotos said:

But I don't get charged rent for my engine! No car maker leases their engine! It's still a running cost and it's more than a diesel. Worlds most expensive warrantee and breakdown too! Stop calculating on up front cost and calculate it on overall running costs.

 

Of course a Zoe is cheap up front, because you're only buying half a car, you have to pay for the battery forever.

 

I love the idea of electric cars but that guy in the zoe video is an idiot.

Servicing costs of the modern ICE powered vehicle have made them a dubious economic proposition and ultimately very expensive white goods.  I doubt if any dealerships are promoting the BEV for very good reason.

14 hours ago, amwphotos said:

But I don't get charged rent for my engine! No car maker leases their engine! It's still a running cost and it's more than a diesel. Worlds most expensive warrantee and breakdown too! Stop calculating on up front cost and calculate it on overall running costs.

 

Of course a Zoe is cheap up front, because you're only buying half a car, you have to pay for the battery forever.

 

I love the idea of electric cars but that guy in the zoe video is an idiot.

Zoe's battery lease doesn't make any sense at all, I agree. Shame really, I'd have bought a Zoe because they look better.

 

I purchased an used top spec Nissan Leaf for about £9150, that is the total price I'd pay if I pay the GFV on my PCP. I need it to go 30 miles daily, it goes 80-90 miles per charge, it has 94% battery life left and it doesn't require any maintenance on the power train. Total running cost: £250 per year for 8000k mileage electricity and tyre change costs averaged to £100 per year. Total £350.

 

If I had purchased a second hand Yaris hybrid (bullet proof automatic in an eco-box that is ideal for town driving), it will cost similar in purchase price. Then, every year need £150+ for engine servicing, £700 on fuel to do same 8000 miles, tyres are probably slightly cheaper, let's say £50 per year. Total £900.

 

So, no matter how you look at it, EV ownership makes heaps of sense. As a town car, I no longer see any reason to maintain an engine. Then as soon as 200+ real world miles EV reach price parity with petrol cars, there won't be much reason to buy the old technology anymore!

18 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

 

So, no matter how you look at it, EV ownership makes heaps of sense. As a town car, I no longer see any reason to maintain an engine. Then as soon as 200+ real world miles EV reach price parity with petrol cars, there won't be much reason to buy the old technology anymore!

Yes that makes great sense, for your situation. I also drive about 30 miles per day, but end up doing 120 miles twice a month and 250 miles once a month too. And the Zoe is too small.

 

I'd love a plug in hybrid Octavia that does 40-50 miles a charge, a golf GTE estate, or the new long range Leaf at a used price.

That's why we need a reliable rapid charging infrastructure and 200+ miles EV. Otherwise they are restricted to town cars.

 

The current affordable EV's are only really useful as a second car, supplementary to a motorway diesel burner. No doubt about it.

6 hours ago, wyx087 said:

That's why we need a reliable rapid charging infrastructure and 200+ miles EV. Otherwise they are restricted to town cars.

 

The current affordable EV's are only really useful as a second car, supplementary to a motorway diesel burner. No doubt about it.

I would expect eventually McDonald’s will be providing a recharge facility, others will want your custom otherwise, surely.

I’d want a putput as a spare  -

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1113390_even-luxury-launches-can-go-all-electric-hinckley-shows-how

The cost of buying or renting an EV might work out better for those who's 'Life / Work / Home / Travel / Balance' requires going into central London & the Congestion Zone / T-Zone'

As to those that have to and have the vehicles that will cost them £21 a day (Additional £10 charge), they are going to be very attached to them or have enough money to be using them not only in Central London but any other Cities or regions that start imposing similar charges.

Only having to occasionally pay the extra might not bother some.

Edited 23 October, 20178 yr by Headinawayoffski

Tesla’s China challenge -

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/22/business/tesla-plant-in-china-may-be-a-first.html?emc=edit_th_20171023&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=67480003

http://visitsouthwestscotland.com/attractions/southwest-coastal-route 

 

BBC Landward from this week, Episode 19.

Includes part 1 of driving a Nissan Leaf around the South West 300. (some is coastal)

http://bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b09c1wzl/landward-20172018-episode19 

Edited 24 October, 20178 yr by Headinawayoffski

China will make the change first 

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1113429_death-of-the-internal-combustion-engine-is-now-a-thing

EVs greener than diesel even when charged with dirtiest electricity.

http://www.nextgreencar.com/news/8206/evs-greener-than-diesel-even-when-charged-with-dirtiest-electricity/

 

 

 

In other news, I have done a 300 miles round trip over last weekend in my new-to-me 3-years-old second-hand Nissan Leaf. It only has 24kWh, max range of 90-100 miles when new, 90 miles for my one. It was quiet, relaxing and very easy thanks to regen braking and no engine vibration, at no point I fear the car might not make it to the next charging station (aka range anxiety). Rapid charging is also very very quick, around 20min back to 80%, only enough time for a toilet break and reply a few messages. 

Downside is due to its limited range of ~50 miles between rapid chargers (because charging beyond 80% is not worth the wait, and we kept 20 miles as backup), we don't have the luxury of choosing where to stop. 

 

We then drove the Leaf around Bristol on Saturday. From North Somerset and back, whole day without needing to charge, total 50 miles, only used just over half the battery.

 

 

So only long distance driving need to consider battery size, 3 year old EV's are more than capable for normal daily drives. My calculation tells me a 40kWh battery car will allow comfortable long travel using existing infrastructure, which will improve in coming years. Assuming no other efficiency improvements, 40kWh will allow 100+ miles between 80-15% rapid charges, this means over 1.5 hours of sitting at motorway speeds, time for break and leg stretching.

 

The new 2018 Nissan Leaf is 40kWh, the Tesla Model 3 base model is estimated to be 40-45kWh, the Renault Zoe is already being sold as 40kWh for a year now. I think everyone else agrees with my calculations. Bigger is just more headroom for battery wear, which I find to be negligible with my 3 year old car.

More on the new Leaf -

https://www.goauto.com.au/download/1066.pdf

http://bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b09cc2l9/landward-20172018-episode-20 

2nd part of driving the South West 300 in a Nissan Leaf , BBC Scotland Landward.

6 min recharge and 320 kms!..........really?.

https://www.carshowroom.com.au/news/toshiba-s-new-battery-gives-you-320km-in-6-minutes/?utm_source=CSR+Newsletter&utm_campaign=7f14bd98b5-CSR+Weekly+Wrap+-+November+3rd+2017&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_f85b6ed6b3-7f14bd98b5-57838697

On ‎31‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 11:25, Headinawayoffski said:

http://bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b09cc2l9/landward-20172018-episode-20 

2nd part of driving the South West 300 in a Nissan Leaf , BBC Scotland Landward.

 

Saw all the episodes on the news on driving the A9 a few weeks back with an electric BMW small car...model name escapes me ATM

 

11 hours ago, Ryeman said:

6 min recharge and 320 kms!..........really?.

https://www.carshowroom.com.au/news/toshiba-s-new-battery-gives-you-320km-in-6-minutes/?utm_source=CSR+Newsletter&utm_campaign=7f14bd98b5-CSR+Weekly+Wrap+-+November+3rd+2017&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_f85b6ed6b3-7f14bd98b5-57838697

 

Following on from my earlier posts with electrical workings out & actual facts re the cables down the street not coping, I'll work out some more infor:-

 

Ok then no details on battery capacity just they tested it on a 50Ah & did a charge in 6 mins...but on large batteries that's going to hit problems on how the feck do you allow the general public to handle such a high voltage cable??

 

So average electric car battery is now say 40kW...& they did a 50Ah (my car battery is 70Ah) in 6 mins...so to charge a 40kw in 6mins would require a 400kW charger!  working:- 40kw divide by 6 mins = 6.66 x 60 mins (1hr) = 399.66kW.

 

Now you can get  400V 3 phase supply @ 100A which gives you a max power draw of 400V x 100A = 40,000W or 40kW....which would charge that battery in 1hr....but we want 6 mins...

 

So we now have to get what is known as "light industrial supply" & a 11,000V (11kV), 3 phase supply, & our own transformer/substation (more costs)

 

So say we opt for the full 11kV with a required draw of 400kW which would give us 36.36Amps. Anyone fancy pulling up to a new electric fast charger & handling a 11,000V, 36-40 Amp cable then??? It will be about 45mm in diameter, so about the thickness of a fuel hose.

 

So now we have a "goal" for the power requirement of one rapid charger, now think about the earlier mentioned TV programmes where they drove up long distances & refuelled along the way, think of the times you did a long trip & refuelled along the way, remember all those nice big fuel stations on the motorways etc...

 

Now the smallest petrol station near me has two sets of pumps (each set offers diesel & petrol), & each set has hoses on both sides...so a max of 4 cars at one time...big stations I have seen in UK can take 12 or 16 cars.

 

So now imagine each "set" of pumps replaced with a 400kW charger....so your nice local station will have a peak power requirement (designed) of 4 x 400kW = 1,600kW,...... amps requirement is 145A @ 11,000V (1600kW divide by 11kV). So nice size transformer will be required for that re-charge station

 

Your house is max 230V @ 100A = (23kW)....the small 4 point charging stations will be 11,000V  @ 145A = (1,600kW)....so the equivalent of 70 houses then...Just remember every house down your road can not draw the max 100A incomer fused supply at the same time (refer to my earlier posts).

 

The bigger 16 car ones will require 400kW x 16 = 6,400kW peak design load at 11kV = 581.81Amps

& people wonder why I quoted the SSE boss as stating the grid can't cope with the projected demand...basically you are intending to add to the grid the power consumption of every vehicle in UK .....wholesale swap from one form of energy (fossil fuel) to electric...the grid wasn't designed for it & considering how long it would take to design & install the required infrastructure it can't be done in the time frames the stupid politicians want to do it..

 

BTW:- Highland council will start wanting payment for you using the electric charge points (22 in council area) as usage (7774 times, Sept 2016- Aug 2017) has shot up landing them with a £20,000 electric bill for the same period.

 

http://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/News/Fees-set-for-electric-car-charge-points-in-the-Highlands-31102017.htm

 

The full electric car is a nice idea.....just needs the infrastructure & power generation to cope...

 

 

I suspect that to charge at those kind of rates you'd need a battery of perhaps twice the size as part of your home infrastructure.  This would slowly charge during periods of cheap electricity.  When you plug in it would dump it's energy into the car.  The same would go for "filling" stations.

Either that or string some copper wire across my street, add a bumper car pole and wait for the next thunderstorm to charge it!

11 hours ago, fabdavrav said:

The bigger 16 car ones will require 400kW x 16 = 6,400kW peak design load at 11kV = 581.81Amps

 

 

As mentioned, battery is the answer. You have to stop thinking it as a ridged power station supply to people's demand. It becoming less and less important to build for peak power demand with help of smart grid and battery tech.

 

It's already being installed at larger Tesla supercharger stations:

https://electrek.co/2017/10/30/tesla-supercharger-stays-online-in-power-outage-powerpack-system/

 

 

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

As mentioned, battery is the answer. You have to stop thinking it as a ridged power station supply to people's demand. It becoming less and less important to build for peak power demand with help of smart grid and battery tech.

 

It's already being installed at larger Tesla supercharger stations:

https://electrek.co/2017/10/30/tesla-supercharger-stays-online-in-power-outage-powerpack-system/

 

 

 

Reading down that link that station cannot go offline for long periods of time & I recon would not cope with high continual demand...

 

Thats the point I was trying to make, masses of very highly used petrol stations which would become "recharge points"....we will still need the equivalent along our road network. When a petrol station is serving masses of cars every minute for hrs on end say on at a peak travel time, you can't do it all via battery packs at the site, & any that you charge from the mains grid will deplete very quickly...

 

So you still have to draw that peak demand from the grid sometimes & put in place the necessary cabling etc...otherwise you won't be able to cope at peak times...

 

Busy petrol stations serve a car or more a minute....so say 60 cars charging 40kW batteries....6mins per charge.....so 10 at a time. So in 1hr the station batteries will have a draw on them of 60 x 40kW = 2,400kW/hr.....that's quite a few batteries & cooling etc to cope with, plus you need to now recharge them before the next customers pull in...

 

I'd love to see that Tesla station have all those bays full of cars with high turnaround for a couple of hours like a busy motorway service station.....see how soon it draws from the grid as the batteries at the station go flat..

 

They might cope with the current loads like in the picture, & if that station is full I bet that the chargers automatically ramp down due to availability of power/load so the recharge time now increases.....

 

EDIT, those supercharging stations DO ramp down the power to your car if the whole station is "full" of cars & therefore they can't cope with high demand!

 

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/support/supercharging?redirect=no

 

Quote:-

"""I am not Supercharging as quickly as I expected. What could be happening?

Supercharging rate may vary due to battery charge level, current use of the Supercharger station and extreme climate conditions. """

 

Edited 6 November, 20178 yr by fabdavrav

3 things:

1. It's not going to be a step change

2. The Tesla battery a supplementary power source, I expect Tesla is monitoring usage patterns and expanding charging capabilities as required.

3. Car usage models will change from standing at the pumps to plugging in at night for slow charge. Comparing super fast recharge stations against petrol stations are not valid. Most people won't need to even think about recharge most of the time.

 

For example, I went to Ikea for shopping and charged my Leaf for free. Drove it around for rest of the weekend and never thought about its range. I'm still waiting for 7kW home charger install, so can't plug in my Leaf at night, but if I was able to, I wouldn't need to think about charging the car while out and about. As a local car, it's totally independent from public charging infrastructure.

Whereas with my Octavia, I'm now 1/4 left in the tank. I have to think about and plan a detour to a petrol station in the next few days. Constraining my traffic avoiding options and taking up my time.

 

Every town and city in the UK and between towns and cities need to be getting on with approving the facilities and getting building.

The Local Authorities & 4 Governments in the UK do not have the money though, so it will be interesting to see what the UK Chancellor comes up with in the Budget this month.

Green light for Dundee electric vehicle charging hub.mhtml

Dundee charging ahead with electric vehicle sites - Evening Telegraph.mhtml

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

3 things:

1. It's not going to be a step change

2. The Tesla battery a supplementary power source, I expect Tesla is monitoring usage patterns and expanding charging capabilities as required.

3. Car usage models will change from standing at the pumps to plugging in at night for slow charge. Comparing super fast recharge stations against petrol stations are not valid. Most people won't need to even think about recharge most of the time.

 

For example, I went to Ikea for shopping and charged my Leaf for free. Drove it around for rest of the weekend and never thought about its range. I'm still waiting for 7kW home charger install, so can't plug in my Leaf at night, but if I was able to, I wouldn't need to think about charging the car while out and about. As a local car, it's totally independent from public charging infrastructure.

Whereas with my Octavia, I'm now 1/4 left in the tank. I have to think about and plan a detour to a petrol station in the next few days. Constraining my traffic avoiding options and taking up my time.

 

 

I'm talking about long journeys you know the ones where even if you have a full charge at home, you still run out...masses of people do this every day for work, or personal...so you will need "recharge" stations along those routes...basically convert the existing petrol stations to electric recharge stations...

 

What I am pointing out is that even with battery "back up" you can't meet the full demand & Tesla even confirm this as at full demand your recharge rate/time will increase at these fancy "supercharger" stations. A few cars can get full rate, but a full station of cars..it can't cope so all the charge rates drop down & your recharge time increases...which proves that even the fancy Tesla stations are restricted by the incoming grid supply & the limit of the battery packs/back up at the station....basically they are not designed for peak demand....as I have be stating!!

 

The existing infrastructure can't cope with the eventual (or even part) wholesale swap from petrol/diesel to electric cars. 

 

As for free charging, Tesla charging costs, & most councils will be introducing charging costs next year...ours will be..as the electric bills are getting to big for them to cover for free...

 

PSA Opel betting on battery to fast track recovery -

http://europe.autonews.com/article/20171109/ANE/171109781/opel-bets-on-electric-power-in-bid-for-profitability?cciid=email-autonews-blast

 

https://www.zap-map.com/

 

November 7, 2017: The UK’s plug-in car market saw continued strong performance in October, accounting for 2.2% of total registrations – in sharp contrast to the diesel’s sales dropping 30% according to Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) figures. Pure electric car (EV) registrations...

 

 

43 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

https://www.zap-map.com/

 

November 7, 2017: The UK’s plug-in car market saw continued strong performance in October, accounting for 2.2% of total registrations – in sharp contrast to the diesel’s sales dropping 30% according to Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) figures. Pure electric car (EV) registrations...

 

 

 

 

If the diesels have dropped by 30% that means the petrol sales have risen as not enough EV sales to have replaced that drop....but then I knew that already,

 

Petrol sales up by 2.7%

 

https://www.smmt.co.uk/2017/11/double-digit-decline-uk-car-market-october-government-urged-restore-confidence-new-cleaner-diesels/

 

VW are now having problems supplying the petrol engines for certain models due to increased demand.....& the second hand value of my petrol estate has risen..whereas my relatives Hybrid 3008 Peugeot which is diesel engine/ni-mh battery has plummeted to basically pay the bloke to take it away as it has the worst real world emissions of any vehicle tested so far...

Edited 9 November, 20178 yr by fabdavrav