8 hours ago, wyx087 said:

And it's part of my children's future that's subsidising your use of fossil fuel. In another words, we need global carbon tax.

 

Swings and roundabouts, no one solution is best. But currently, as I had been saying, EV is cheaper to run than ICE counterparts.

Surely if EV is cheaper to run than normal petrol/diesel cars there should be no need for a subsidy?  Getting an EV on PCP and then pay that off with what you save in running costs would be a cost neutral option wouldn't it?  EV is more expensive to lease, but cheaper to run, wouldn't it even out over say 5 yrs?

6 hours ago, widdershins said:

Surely if EV is cheaper to run than normal petrol/diesel cars there should be no need for a subsidy?  Getting an EV on PCP and then pay that off with what you save in running costs would be a cost neutral option wouldn't it?  EV is more expensive to lease, but cheaper to run, wouldn't it even out over say 5 yrs?

 

Lease prices have been hedged as residual prices have been an unknown.  LEAF 2 has been a big disappointment for range whilst Zoe 40 kWh has shown to be relatively good but the battery lease an issue.

 

Like most cars it only starts to make sense when doing more than 10,000 miles a year.  Zoe deal for 5 years 0% finance, 3k trade in for a scrappage is very tempting.  It is also waiting for next model which is a frustration, next Zoe will have DC charging at around 75 kWh as well as a 50 kWh battery reportedly.  Whilst EVs models are getting about 10% better every year ICE cars are getting more complex, expensive and more costly to take in to some cities.  Towns like Oxford have free charging when you park ! Make increasing economic sense.    

    

Edited 3 April, 20197 yr by lol-lol

Our nickel miners will be pleased to do business with you George.

9 hours ago, widdershins said:

Rapid charging on a small scale may be detrimental in a local street that isn't built to handle that draw through old cables.  In a specialist EV filling station being fed via a transformer from a HV line, not so much.  Averaging would start to apply  1m EV's charging for 10 hrs at 3Kw would draw the same current as 1m EV's charging for 6 mins at 300Kw.  Not all would fill-up at the same time, a) they couldn't as there wouldn't be enough charge points,  b) Self limiting would occur as people would time shift their recharges to avoid waiting in a queue at the busiest times. and c) people are out and about at different times of the day and night.  Regarding your point about rapid chargers forcing fast generating plant to fire up I doubt it.  Similarly to the way the grid is provisioned for domestic use, i.e. provisioned with the assumption that not everyone will be drawing max power at the same time.  So electric car charging will use the same averaging of usage over a large customer base  principle, the e.g.  1m rapid chargers as a whole will draw electricity according to a daily usage curve similar to the way demand is predicted for domestic usage at present.  Some will be getting put on to charge as others finish, so it'll even out overall.

 

Also what about the millions of small transformers in all those lamp post charging points, parking meter charge points, etc.  The environmentalists are always saying to unplug all those small power bricks etc. when unused as they consume a small amount of electricity even when not plugged in.  The lamp post chargepoints will do the same.  They'll need to be powered for the electronics to function and recognise a car is plugged in, power the charge control console, etc.  The enviromental costs of a million trickle charging lamposts would be significantly greater than switching existing pumps to rapid charge points and servicing a large number of EV's through a handful of 300Kw sockets.

 

Why would you put rapid charging on a small scale? Current rapid charging infrastructure sucks. It needs to be multiple at hub locations on major roads to facilitate long distance driving and minimise wait time.

 

Bold underlined text is another old style thinking on the way national grid works. We ought to be moving towards an unpredictable power sources (renewables) and use batteries to store and buffer for the demand. The more rapid charging stalls, the more battery is needed, but if the cars are hooked up when parked, the cars can actually help the grid as stationary battery, no more need to duplicate battery for old style refuelling.

 

There are no power brick in slower AC charging posts. The transformer is in the car. The safety electronics draw very little, less than a switched off TV, less than a Chromecast. Whereas for DC rapid charging, the transformer is on the ground always connected. So by your last argument in the last paragraph, we ought to install less rapid chargers and use more of those slower charging AC posts!

 

8 hours ago, widdershins said:

Surely if EV is cheaper to run than normal petrol/diesel cars there should be no need for a subsidy?  Getting an EV on PCP and then pay that off with what you save in running costs would be a cost neutral option wouldn't it?  EV is more expensive to lease, but cheaper to run, wouldn't it even out over say 5 yrs?

The problem is people. People see a slightly expensive car and don't do the sums. The incentive is to help the adoption of EV's.

 

There are already many massive subsidies on the fossil fuel, the EV one is just slightly more visible to the public.

 

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-47785050

 

 

Edited 3 April, 20197 yr by Skoffski

6 hours ago, wyx087 said:

 The more rapid charging stalls, the more battery is needed, but if the cars are hooked up when parked, the cars can actually help the grid as stationary battery, no more need to duplicate battery for old style refuelling.

Surely using the battery on EV cars as a grid buffer means you cannot be 100% sure that the EV has a fully charged battery when you return to it even after theoretically allowing enough time for the battery to be fully charged?

 

Even if only a fully charged EV battery is used and only discharged to say 90% that will mess up the owners calculations of how far they can get before needing to recharge - possibly to the point of not reaching the expected charging station (which while they are widely spaced still in some areas may lead to a call to the RAC, AA, etc.?).

5 hours ago, PetrolDave said:

Surely using the battery on EV cars as a grid buffer means you cannot be 100% sure that the EV has a fully charged battery when you return to it even after theoretically allowing enough time for the battery to be fully charged?

 

Even if only a fully charged EV battery is used and only discharged to say 90% that will mess up the owners calculations of how far they can get before needing to recharge - possibly to the point of not reaching the expected charging station (which while they are widely spaced still in some areas may lead to a call to the RAC, AA, etc.?).

 

they're not THAT widely spaced, certainly not as widely spaced as petrol stations in rural areas. Besides before you return to the car you look on your phone to see what state of charge it has. besides, if you're using your car for grid balancing you'll be at home and the chances are your daily motoring will not be anything like the 150-200 miles range that most EVs now have or will soon have. SO the issue of reaching a planned stop is relevant to a long distance trip, and for that you'll not have been doing any grid balancing. 

I had to go to Ikea today, it was lunchtime so we decided to eat in their cafe. While we were there the car recharged at a cost of £5,24  That earned us a £6 voucher in Ikea which paid for the thing we were shopping for. As we were finishing lunch I got a text from the car telling me that it had finished charging. But I'd already checked on the app and seen that it was nearly full.

 

 

Edited 3 April, 20197 yr by domhnall

12 hours ago, wyx087 said:

 

Why would you put rapid charging on a small scale? Current rapid charging infrastructure sucks. It needs to be multiple at hub locations on major roads to facilitate long distance driving and minimise wait time.

 

 

 

 

erm, not in Scotland, it's very good and expanding too

 

Is this a one way street -

https://electrek.co/2019/04/03/tesla-ccs-adapter-first-look/

Bring it on -

https://thedriven.io/2019/04/04/electric-cars-could-cost-half-of-equivalent-petrol-vehicles-by-2030/

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/106508/new-battery-will-give-electric-cars-over-600-miles-of-range

Battery research in earnest has been a relatively recent development and I suspect the ICE is toast if only because the unit costs of them will be be in the opposite to the battery and shareholders aren’t going to accept the obvious negative signs.

13 hours ago, domhnall said:

they're not THAT widely spaced, certainly not as widely spaced as petrol stations in rural areas. Besides before you return to the car you look on your phone to see what state of charge it has.

Charging points might not be widely spaced in Lothian but in the south west of England they are rarer than hens teeth (as the map earlier in this thread shows). Scotland would appear to have a much more extensive charging network than England, so we have to treat them as two separate countries when talking about EV charging.

 

Interesting that you make the common assumption that everyone has a mobile phone - I do but at least 50% of my neighbours don't. And anyway knowing what the state of charge is would just tell you that you need to wait longer? The convenience of knowing how long it will take to fill with petrol/diesel isn't there yet and that's the red line that many, especially more traditionally minded, people will apply.

Edited 4 April, 20197 yr by PetrolDave

I do have a mobile, but I don't have a "smart" phone, because practical experience says that they don't work well where I live and I see no point in spending £hundreds on something that won't work.

There are lights on the car, if you can see the car, you will know how far along it has charged.

 

EV is simple once you get to know your car after a few trips, same with all modern cars. You buy a new Octavia, you'll need to spend a few trips learning its quirks and features. I spent more than a week to get used to my previous car's automatic gearbox (first auto) and foot operated brake. I then spent similar amount of time learning to drive DSG so I don't get caught out by its gear change logic. I only needed to spend one 300 miles return trip in the Leaf to learn charging, everything else is really straight forward, no gearbox logic, no engine stop/start, no DPF regen considerations required.

 

For rapid charging, You can pretty much guarantee 80% or more state of charge after 30min for my Leaf 24kWh, probably 45min for 40kWh due to bigger battery but same 50kW charger. For destination charging, I know every hour I recover ~17%, so overnight it'll get fully charged.

 

Regarding V2G or V2H, it's a simple matter of letting the charger know when you need the car. I need to leave for work at 6:30am, so I'll set 6:30am. If you need flexibility, you can also set a minimal charge state. I've had to drive 40 miles at a moment's notice when there's only 16 miles left in the car, easily solved by quick 10min on rapid charger.

 

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

There are lights on the car, if you can see the car, you will know how far along it has charged.

 

EV is simple once you get to know your car after a few trips, same with all modern cars. You buy a new Octavia, you'll need to spend a few trips learning its quirks and features. I spent more than a week to get used to my previous car's automatic gearbox (first auto) and foot operated brake. I then spent similar amount of time learning to drive DSG so I don't get caught out by its gear change logic. I only needed to spend one 300 miles return trip in the Leaf to learn charging, everything else is really straight forward, no gearbox logic, no engine stop/start, no DPF regen considerations required.

 

For rapid charging, You can pretty much guarantee 80% or more state of charge after 30min for my Leaf 24kWh, probably 45min for 40kWh due to bigger battery but same 50kW charger. For destination charging, I know every hour I recover ~17%, so overnight it'll get fully charged.

 

Regarding V2G or V2H, it's a simple matter of letting the charger know when you need the car. I need to leave for work at 6:30am, so I'll set 6:30am. If you need flexibility, you can also set a minimal charge state. I've had to drive 40 miles at a moment's notice when there's only 16 miles left in the car, easily solved by quick 10min on rapid charger.

 

 

and the chargers aren't that rare 

 

 

 

 

quote we did it on our way to Belfast at Christmas, instead of stopping at the places we usually do we selected alternatives based on them having charge points.  We had just about finished lunch when the car texted me to say it was full so we finished up and headed off. It's basically a change of mindset, you stop thinking about fuelling up as something you have to do and change to it being something that will happen without you while you do something else instead. quote.

 

So there is someone queuing to get access to the charger while you have lunch, thats a 1 hours wait then another 30 minutes for charging. 

3 hours ago, Bobclive2 said:

quote we did it on our way to Belfast at Christmas, instead of stopping at the places we usually do we selected alternatives based on them having charge points.  We had just about finished lunch when the car texted me to say it was full so we finished up and headed off. It's basically a change of mindset, you stop thinking about fuelling up as something you have to do and change to it being something that will happen without you while you do something else instead. quote.

 

So there is someone queuing to get access to the charger while you have lunch, thats a 1 hours wait then another 30 minutes for charging. 

 

hmm no there were 2 chargers, we picked one and then had lunch, car sent me a text message to say it was ready so we finished lunch and set off. If this was a less convenient method of driving trust me I'd be the first to ditch it. But the longer you guys keep driving your sluggish ICE cars and paying for petrol and diesel the better for me frankly. 
 

The only time I've encountered a queue for a charger has been when plug in hybrids abuse rapid chargers. All I did then was find another charger. They charge incredibly slowly, they draw 3kwh from a 50kwh charger and are often abandoned for 5 or 6 hours at a time just because the owner wants to save £ or £4 on electricity, I even had one the other night ask if I would mind stopping my charge so he could use it. I said "don't you have a petrol engine you can use?" he said he did but wanted to save petrol. I told him he'd have to wait 15 minutes until I'd finished.

 

In fact  I have had to queue at a petrol station way more times than I have had to do at a charge point. Later this year they are going to introduce fees to charge which will stop any grazing by people and should free up any problems. Also with another 1500 charge points being installed this year in Scotland we should add some headroom to cope with the growing number of EVs. 

 

 

Edited 4 April, 20197 yr by domhnall

7 hours ago, PetrolDave said:

Charging points might not be widely spaced in Lothian but in the south west of England they are rarer than hens teeth (as the map earlier in this thread shows). Scotland would appear to have a much more extensive charging network than England, so we have to treat them as two separate countries when talking about EV charging.

 

Interesting that you make the common assumption that everyone has a mobile phone - I do but at least 50% of my neighbours don't. And anyway knowing what the state of charge is would just tell you that you need to wait longer? The convenience of knowing how long it will take to fill with petrol/diesel isn't there yet and that's the red line that many, especially more traditionally minded, people will apply.

 

 

I actually do not know a single person that does not have a mobile phone. 

The map I shared earlier for Devon showed that there are chargers in all the centres of population, none on the middle of Exmoor I'll grant you but most of the towns are covered. They certainly need to do more to expand their coverage given the number of cars coming on to the market in the next year or so. 

7 minutes ago, domhnall said:

 

 

I actually do not know a single person that does not have a mobile phone. 

The map I shared earlier for Devon showed that there are chargers in all the centres of population, none on the middle of Exmoor I'll grant you but most of the towns are covered. They certainly need to do more to expand their coverage given the number of cars coming on to the market in the next year or so. 

The Queen never takes my calls so perhaps she doesn't have one.

5 hours ago, domhnall said:

 

Also with another 1500 charge points being installed this year in Scotland we should add some headroom to cope with the growing number of EVs. 

 

 

BH !

Our useless government, which is on it’s last legs, is owned by Murdoch’s Sky After Dark cabal of coal pushers - (a trumpian world) - and are positively antagonistic to BEVs.

Apart from Tesla’s own installations I’m only aware of one public charge point in Victoria.  In comparison you are another Norway.

51 minutes ago, Ryeman said:

BH !

Our useless government, which is on it’s last legs, is owned by Murdoch’s Sky After Dark cabal of coal pushers - (a trumpian world) - and are positively antagonistic to BEVs.

Apart from Tesla’s own installations I’m only aware of one public charge point in Victoria.  In comparison you are another Norway.

 

Well they're one of our neighbours, we're very similar in size and population size, similar in resources. They were once one of the poorest parts of Europe but are now the richest on the world so they're quite the role model. 

1 minute ago, domhnall said:

 

Well they're one of our neighbours, we're very similar in size and population size, similar in resources. They were once one of the poorest parts of Europe but are now the richest on the world so they're quite the role model. 

Exactly 

It’s amazing what a little vision and planning can achieve if you don’t spend so much time trying to wedge your political opponents.

7 hours ago, Ryeman said:

Exactly 

It’s amazing what a little vision and planning can achieve if you don’t spend so much time trying to wedge your political opponents.

Trying ...... hard...... not...... to.......utter......the........B.......word.............

 

14 hours ago, domhnall said:

The only time I've encountered a queue for a charger has been when plug in hybrids abuse rapid chargers. All I did then was find another charger. They charge incredibly slowly, they draw 3kwh from a 50kwh charger and are often abandoned for 5 or 6 hours at a time just because the owner wants to save £ or £4 on electricity, I even had one the other night ask if I would mind stopping my charge so he could use it. I said "don't you have a petrol engine you can use?" he said he did but wanted to save petrol. I told him he'd have to wait 15 minutes until I'd finished.

People just don't care. :(

 

I think per kWh system just doesn't work. A time based fee system would work best for rapid or faster charging. The benefit is three fold:
1. disincentive people to use rapid charger longer than they absolutely need, similar to time restriction except this fits all battery sizes
2. get people to learn about charging rates (no more PHEV) and charge tapering (no more slow 95% chargers)
3. segregate future faster chargers so it won't be blocked by a first generation 50kW car. (eg. 50kW is at 20p per minute whereas 150kW is 50p per minute)