On my diesel van when I get down to last couple of segments with say 100/130miles range, I’m looking to fill it up, whereas my EV is pretty much maxed at 130/150 miles.

 

I have the best of both worlds as I can drive all day using the REX to generate electric, just stop and top up my 9ltr tank every 80 or so miles, so it’s a bit of a cheat and avoids range anxiety, especially with the unreliable charging infrastructure at the moment.

 

I will go full on BEV eventually as electric driving is so quiet and the instant torque is impressive

7 hours ago, widdershins said:

So the winning EV in the current evolutionary race WILL be the un-eco friendly vehicle with the huge liquid cooled battery with a 600 mile range that can charge in 5 mins. 

That is a very nice fantasy. I don't believe in the next 20 years you'll ever get it with Li-on based battery.

 

From your post, it sounds like range is the defacto metric for a good car. But 500 miles is still normal these days. The Volvo S40 mk1 I had can only go ~350 miles, my parents S40 mk2 can only go a bit over 300 miles. The Skoda Octavia mk3 50+mpg diesel can only make 500 miles on a good day. Yet as we all know, worse MPG petrol Octavia sold really well. The difference between those cars and a 200 miles EV is that those cars NEED the range to allow commuter to not visit a petrol station every week. Whereas EV can always be charged at home, and start the day with 100%.

 

So I completely disagree Leaf 1 will be a dinosaur. It can serve its purpose of being a commuter car perfectly, range isn't an issue. The lack of supply is not the reason propping the price up, the reason is super cheap running cost and the fact it's a really nice, cheap second family car. Total cost of ownership for £10k Leaf is equivalent to £7k Yeti, yet it's a lot better to drive and nicer inside.

 

For a while, near beginning of your post, I thought you had a really good point with regard to the lack of choice in EV size/style. But you went down the range rabbit hole with your ICE refuelling mentality, completely ignoring the charging flexibility of EV's.

 

 

Put it this way. I've got a 500 miles Skoda Octavia parked up at home, occasionally used, I always fill up before the fuel light is lit. We both prefers to drive the EV and whenever I ask my wife to take the Skoda the first question she asks is "has it got any fuel in it?" With the Leaf, she knows she always starts the day with full charge, thus never worries about the range.

(well, she does worry about the range when I deliberately don't plug in for the night, so we can charge for free at supermarket, gaining enough free range for the whole weekend)

I think you've missed my point though, you are thinking like an EV enthusiast, the average consumer isn't.  Small city cars have large ranges even though they don't need them.  They have them because the buyers want it.  Try selling an up! with a 100 mile range and see how far you get (pun intended) yet a leaf 1 with 70 mile range is acceptable?  Charging at home is not possible for a lot of city dwellers so both the petrol up and the Leaf have to go to a filling station away from home to charge.

 

EV's will have larger batteries not because they need them but because buyers will want them.  Environmentally more acceptable little cars like leafs will lose out to 1 ton heavier e-SUV's with large batteries not because of logic and reason about what people should buy but because of market demand.

 

Those making the switch are early adopters, the people who know about them and have researched for months the positives and negatives of every model, charging, etc. and bought on logic and eco credentials.  Those still to make the switch are the bulk of vehicle users.  They will mainly look at which e-vehicles on offer are closest to what they have in size and range and buy those.  Car makers will be make what people want to buy or go bust, simple as that.

 

I also think vandalism and cable theft will become more of a problem for on street overnight charging points as they become more common.

Australia builds McMansions with double garages and more than enough sunshine.

As it is, there are many more young people who aren’t into cars like the good old days and cheap flights make the longer range somewhat irrelevant.  Then there is the threat of autonomy.

Social media is killing actual visiting too...........and that is sad.

Re Vans / Light Commercials, Estate cars, Purpose Built Small vans.

Range of EV Light Commercial Vans is still a joke.

Nissan Van / Minibus / MPV Taxi included.         

 OK for local town / city use but not for between many Cities even in the UK.  Plenty are being used in urban use where charging can be available.

 

The Manufacturers need to get on with developing Commercial Vehicles like Small, Medium & Larger vans, and Pickups with a decent range with full loads.

Estate Cars & People Carriers for more than 5 people as well that can carry the stuff that people need to carry.

 

 

Edited 29 March, 20197 yr by Skoffski

27 minutes ago, widdershins said:

I think you've missed my point though, you are thinking like an EV enthusiast, the average consumer isn't.  Small city cars have large ranges even though they don't need them.  They have them because the buyers want it.  Try selling an up! with a 100 mile range and see how far you get (pun intended) yet a leaf 1 with 70 mile range is acceptable?  Charging at home is not possible for a lot of city dwellers so both the petrol up and the Leaf have to go to a filling station away from home to charge.

 

EV's will have larger batteries not because they need them but because buyers will want them.  Environmentally more acceptable little cars like leafs will lose out to 1 ton heavier e-SUV's with large batteries not because of logic and reason about what people should buy but because of market demand.

 

Those making the switch are early adopters, the people who know about them and have researched for months the positives and negatives of every model, charging, etc. and bought on logic and eco credentials.  Those still to make the switch are the bulk of vehicle users.  They will mainly look at which e-vehicles on offer are closest to what they have in size and range and buy those.  Car makers will be make what people want to buy or go bust, simple as that.

 

I also think vandalism and cable theft will become more of a problem for on street overnight charging points as they become more common.

Range is not the real issue but ability to recharge quickly is. An ICE can pull up at petrol/diesel pumps and refill in minutes an EV takes hours. We need new battery technology that can do this.

Edited 29 March, 20197 yr by Odin1123
error

400 kms in the morning with lunch/80% recharge and another 400 to o’night recharge/destination..........and we haven’t even started selling EVs yet.

easy way to put out the fires when your EV battery decides to go "hot".....

 

https://www.motor1.com/news/315476/bmw-i8-fire-reponse-netherlands/?inf_contact_key=04620639e8be1e7a5b813b4b57ab34d9680f8914173f9191b1c0223e68310bb1

 

A truck with a crane & a container full of 3,000gallons of water...use crane to off-load container onto road, use crane to pick up the EV car & dump into the water filled container….leave to simmer for 24hrs.....

 

 

& then clean the water.....

Edited 29 March, 20197 yr by fabdavrav

1 hour ago, widdershins said:

I think you've missed my point though, you are thinking like an EV enthusiast, the average consumer isn't.  Small city cars have large ranges even though they don't need them.  They have them because the buyers want it.  Try selling an up! with a 100 mile range and see how far you get (pun intended) yet a leaf 1 with 70 mile range is acceptable?  Charging at home is not possible for a lot of city dwellers so both the petrol up and the Leaf have to go to a filling station away from home to charge.

 

EV's will have larger batteries not because they need them but because buyers will want them.  Environmentally more acceptable little cars like leafs will lose out to 1 ton heavier e-SUV's with large batteries not because of logic and reason about what people should buy but because of market demand.

 

Those making the switch are early adopters, the people who know about them and have researched for months the positives and negatives of every model, charging, etc. and bought on logic and eco credentials.  Those still to make the switch are the bulk of vehicle users.  They will mainly look at which e-vehicles on offer are closest to what they have in size and range and buy those.  Car makers will be make what people want to buy or go bust, simple as that.

 

I also think vandalism and cable theft will become more of a problem for on street overnight charging points as they become more common.

You are right, I am thinking like an EV enthusiast.

 

But at the same time, my wife doesn't think like any sort of car enthusiast. Yet she prefers the EV for many reasons: smooth driving, no noise, full charge every morning, to name a few. Of course, she only switched to preferring the EV after owning it and driving it for a few months. Before buying EV, after many hours of selling it to her, she still thought a hybrid is best for her needs despite she only drives locally.

 

So I think, from my experience talking to many people, the refuelling mentality is biggest obstacle, not battery range. True, many people are unable to get off street charging, but the solution isn't to re-use the current petrol station model, because it's a difficult and wasteful way to solve a simple problem. End of the day, the car will be parked up somewhere for hours while the owner doesn't use it.

 

Cable are armoured, locked to the car and to the charger during charging.

Battery is the new frontier, as renewables push UK electricity price to negative

https://www.current-news.co.uk/news/unprecedented-events-send-uk-power-market-to-negative-pricing-for-six-hours-straight

 

On a smaller scale, at home, you can also get paid to use electricity:

https://octopus.energy/agile/

They've integrated with IFTTT, so it can automatically activate your dishwasher/washing machine/crypto-miner when the negative period starts.

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Odin1123 said:

Range is not the real issue but ability to recharge quickly is. An ICE can pull up at petrol/diesel pumps and refill in minutes an EV takes hours. We need new battery technology that can do this.

 

 

umm, no it doesn't. Here is the trip I made last week. Stop 1 we refuelled while we had our evening meal, stop 2 we made while we had a cup of tea and a loo stop. 

I assure you I spent 35 minutes at each stop, not hours. And I made the same trip back the next day. An extra stop was made but that was bladder related not battery.

23 hours ago, KenONeill said:

I don't need it regularly, but I have driven 500 miles (car unrefueled, but driver needed food, drink and comfort stops) or so at typically 60 to 70mph in a day.

 

 

there's your key Ken. When you are refreshing the driver the car can refuel itself too.  Last week I did a 557 mile trip on electric. Car was on autopilot at 65mph most of the way

10 minutes ago, domhnall said:

 

 

there's your key Ken. When you are refreshing the driver the car can refuel itself too.  Last week I did a 557 mile trip on electric. Car was on autopilot at 65mph most of the way

Yeah, about that. I did the 500 miles in just over 8 hours including stops (but no roadworks or accidents slowing me). Did you actually only spend one hour parked up?

Just now, KenONeill said:

Yeah, about that. I did the 500 miles in just over 8 hours including stops (but no roadworks or accidents slowing me). Did you actually only spend one hour parked up?

 

ah well I was with work and the rules don't allow us to drive 8 hours non stop, that would be a big no no.  We have to take a 30 minute break every 2 hours. It's the law. 

Yeah roughly one hour on each leg. We stopped and had a crappy burger king (30 minutes) and a cup of tea (30 minutes) on the way down. On the way back up (next day) we stopped for 25 mins for a cuppa and a leg stretch and then for 40 minutes for a much nicer meal at Tebay. 

If your battery has warmed up and you empty it to around 15% then you can get to 80% in around 30 minutes. The trick is not to try to go beyond 80% as battery charge rates slow down the closer you get to 100% (same as mobile phones). I've seen quite a few PHEV drivers sitting for ages to get the last few percentage points of free electricity in so they can get the full 19 mile range :-)  When you point out the reality of charging past 80% and the fact that they're only saving pennies over charging at home they usually have a light bulb moment. 

 

43 minutes ago, domhnall said:

ah well I was with work and the rules don't allow us to drive 8 hours non stop, that would be a big no no.  We have to take a 30 minute break every 2 hours. It's the law.

Same with us for work. For leisure I stop when I feel tired or stiff, or need an, ah, comfort stop, which also works out at about every 2 hours, but comfort stops can be more like 10 minutes if free parking spaces at $services allow.

 

Rules can and will be bent if a slightly longer or shorter leg can mean stopping at Tebay.

2 hours ago, KenONeill said:

Same with us for work. For leisure I stop when I feel tired or stiff, or need an, ah, comfort stop, which also works out at about every 2 hours, but comfort stops can be more like 10 minutes if free parking spaces at $services allow.

 

Rules can and will be bent if a slightly longer or shorter leg can mean stopping at Tebay.

 

the funny thing is when I stop every two hours (like I do in the EV) I feel a lot less tired at the end of the journey than when I have pushed on for longer (like I do in the camper van).  Tebay is definitely the mutt's nuts

 

I should point out I feel I'm not anti e-Cars, in fact my next car might be a used one when I change from my Diesel 4x4 yeti in 5 or 6 years.  But not one of the current offerings.  I just think that manufacturers who ignore the evolution of cars in terms of size, style, and range up until now and believe that consumers will suddenly change and give up their Passats, Octys, Kodiaqs etc to run round in 4 seat microbox with 100 miles of range will be the manufacturers who lose their shirt.  The ones who coin it will be the ones making Tesla X and iPace competitors.

 

As for locked in armoured cable for recharge that must be a development on newer cars, the pool Leaf1 they try to encourage us to use at work spends all night on what looks to be a customised 13A extension lead with a little box with lights at one end.  Pretty sure I could rip that cable right out in about 5 seconds.  It has no range to be useful for work, and I refuse to drive the thing because of the stupid idea to put a ratcheted on parking brake pedal where the clutch pedal is normally. 

 

My normal driving style would give most members of the IAH (Institute of Advanced Hyper-milers) a run for their money   This means I instinctively lift and coast when appropriate.  In my one "familiarisation" drive of the Leaf, before I got in I was looking forward to trying it out.  But once behind the wheel and familiarised with the controls I was bricking it that I'd act out of habit by trying to depress the clutch on the approach to lights and roundabouts and instead slam the parking brake hard on in traffic at 20-30 mph.  I sat the whole journey with my left foot tucked behind my right trapped between my right calf and the door to try and prevent it.  I was worrying about and concentrating on not pushing that pedal so much that I hated every second of driving it because of that.  Of the cars in our fleet that thing is the least used, partly because of the range and recharge times, partly because of that parking brake position, others in the office won't drive it either.

11 hours ago, widdershins said:

I should point out I feel I'm not anti e-Cars, in fact my next car might be a used one when I change from my Diesel 4x4 yeti in 5 or 6 years.  But not one of the current offerings.  I just think that manufacturers who ignore the evolution of cars in terms of size, style, and range up until now and believe that consumers will suddenly change and give up their Passats, Octys, Kodiaqs etc to run round in 4 seat microbox with 100 miles of range will be the manufacturers who lose their shirt.  The ones who coin it will be the ones making Tesla X and iPace competitors.

 

As for locked in armoured cable for recharge that must be a development on newer cars, the pool Leaf1 they try to encourage us to use at work spends all night on what looks to be a customised 13A extension lead with a little box with lights at one end.  Pretty sure I could rip that cable right out in about 5 seconds.  It has no range to be useful for work, and I refuse to drive the thing because of the stupid idea to put a ratcheted on parking brake pedal where the clutch pedal is normally. 

 

My normal driving style would give most members of the IAH (Institute of Advanced Hyper-milers) a run for their money   This means I instinctively lift and coast when appropriate.  In my one "familiarisation" drive of the Leaf, before I got in I was looking forward to trying it out.  But once behind the wheel and familiarised with the controls I was bricking it that I'd act out of habit by trying to depress the clutch on the approach to lights and roundabouts and instead slam the parking brake hard on in traffic at 20-30 mph.  I sat the whole journey with my left foot tucked behind my right trapped between my right calf and the door to try and prevent it.  I was worrying about and concentrating on not pushing that pedal so much that I hated every second of driving it because of that.  Of the cars in our fleet that thing is the least used, partly because of the range and recharge times, partly because of that parking brake position, others in the office won't drive it either.

 

So you're using the 3kw charger. That's meant as a last resort. That will be slower than  using the 50kw charge port (think of it like filling up a petrol car by only gently pressing the handle on the petrol pump). The only way you could rip the cable out woukd be to destroy the front end of the car, it's not easy to remove at all. 

 

As for that foot brake thing, they did away with those. Totally agree though with the 24 kwh leaf, but they were replaced a few years ago. These days the choice is between 40 and 60 kwh batteries. As you can see from my post above it's easy to do long distance trips as long as you don't want to do something unsafe and drive without breaks. 

Edited 30 March, 20197 yr by domhnall

22 hours ago, Skoffski said:

Re Vans / Light Commercials, Estate cars, Purpose Built Small vans.

Range of EV Light Commercial Vans is still a joke.

Nissan Van / Minibus / MPV Taxi included.         

 OK for local town / city use but not for between many Cities even in the UK.  Plenty are being used in urban use where charging can be available.

 

The Manufacturers need to get on with developing Commercial Vehicles like Small, Medium & Larger vans, and Pickups with a decent range with full loads.

Estate Cars & People Carriers for more than 5 people as well that can carry the stuff that people need to carry.

 

 

Just go to London, nearly every commercial van plumbers, electricians, florists etc are all EV 60 with mile range. The other trick you are missing is even though you start with a 60 mile range slow driving around budsy streets you actually end up with more range as regen braking and hills increase the range EV just don’t do well with sustained high speeds.

In a CITY with charging posts every where is the way it’s going - in fact lots of domestics are complaining that they can’t use the chargers as London has given priority to the commercial EV and taxis.

 

until battery tech really changes I do not see the bigger commercial vehicle development happening, they are letting the cars devolve first.

Edited 30 March, 20197 yr by Defenderben

Thats what is meant to happen with Congestion Charging, change habits & commercial decisions.

Just go to Dundee where the Council Vans and cars and EV's in the Majority, and the public can use Council Parking and Charging Free.

Lots of Taxi's Electric as well, and enough charging on street and off. 

http://www.dundeecity.gov.uk/news/article?article_ref=3284

 

Daimler-Benz or Mercedes as people know them have the bigger commercials, are selling / leasing, 

just not developed to have much range, but they must be thinking about it.

I have not seen EV Recovery Flatbeds / Goods Vehicles to go Recover EV LGV's.  

Not seen that many Recovery Vehicles yet with Chargers to go to Charge EV's rather than uplift / recover.

 

 

Mercedes show in adverts EV Motorhomes, but those will be for people that like stopping after 90 mins and making a cuppa while charging.

Or those using sites with power and not wild camping in a motorhome, or those that take petrol generators with them... Like some do.

 

 

Edited 30 March, 20197 yr by Skoffski

Wow, you are so far ahead of us and basically down to our cons being obsessed with loss of revenue rather than the future reality staring them in the face.

3 hours ago, domhnall said:

 

So you're using the 3kw charger. That's meant as a last resort. That will be slower than  using the 50kw charge port (think of it like filling up a petrol car by only gently pressing the handle on the petrol pump). The only way you could rip the cable out would be to destroy the front end of the car, it's not easy to remove at all. 

 

As for that foot brake thing, they did away with those. Totally agree though with the 24 kwh leaf, but they were replaced a few years ago. These days the choice is between 40 and 60 kwh batteries. As you can see from my post above it's easy to do long distance trips as long as you don't want to do something unsafe and drive without breaks. 

The Leaf was I think someone high up's bright idea of being green.  i.e. badly thought out, "Ohh!, they've started selling Nissan rechargeable cars, let's get one of those to be green!" was probably as far as the thought process went.  So they got an early model and put a 13A socket in an IP rated shroud outside to charge it up, job done.  I'm glad that stupid idea of a parking brake has been done away with, I for one won't miss it!

 

The increase in battery size in the Leaf is the sort of thing I was referring to when taking about the car equivalent of darwinian evolution.  That's why I bought a normal car last year, the battery cars that will be sold 5 years from now will be vastly different to the meagre selection of offerings you can drive out of a dealership today.  Both in range, and styles. 

 

The infrastructure to support them will be vastly better also.  "Petrol Pump" style fast charge stations for people travelling where they can pull in and charge at around 300KWh in minutes rather than hours will be the norm by then (with new cars able to handle that charge rate without catching fire being the norm), rural areas will have more places to "fill up", larger indie garages will be starting to train mechanics in working on EV's safely, and so on.  Charge points will probably be cheaper to use even on Motorways and A roads, increased competition, and increased usage will mean fixed costs will be spread over more "fill ups" so cost per customer will be lower.

On 29/03/2019 at 10:29, wyx087 said:

So I think, from my experience talking to many people, the refuelling mentality is biggest obstacle, not battery range. True, many people are unable to get off street charging, but the solution isn't to re-use the current petrol station model, because it's a difficult and wasteful way to solve a simple problem. End of the day, the car will be parked up somewhere for hours while the owner doesn't use it.

I agree cars will be parked up somewhere for hours, but that isn't necessarily either less difficult, or less wasteful.  In a 2030's world where the majority have EV's you would be talking about most parking spaces having a charge point.  That's a whole lot of little chargers to be manufactured, a whole lot of holes to be dug in pavements, and tens of thousands of miles of heavier electric cabling from the local substations to those charge points to support all this new load that wasn't planned for when the streets were originally cabled.  Let's leave aside the maintenance of that lot on an ongoing basis.  Remember all the upset when Virgin was trenching in it's TV cables?  Trees dying from having roots chopped in half, uneven pavements, etc. from cowboy contractors doing a bodgit and scarper job.

 

That's leaving aside the sheer logistics of getting enough people and enough charge points manufactured in the next 10 years, the planning consents, wayleaves, local opposition, possible needs to upgrade transformers etc.  It's one thing to do a small pilot in one area and pour a country's worth of men and machines into that task, it's a different matter to do it on every street in every town and village.  Look at BT upgrading the Broadband infrastructure or Virgin rolling out it's cable network to see the mammoth scale of the task involved in street-side charging being available at every parking spot.  I was only able to get FTTC broadband late last year.  Full fibre is still a pipe dream round here.  Virgin cable isn't available in any houses within about 5 miles of here at least!

 

Sorry, but I think "Filling Stations" will be the only practical solution to any hopes of a fast take-up of EV's.  It will be a lot faster in every possible way to convert existing petrol stations to service 1,000's of EV cars per day than to serve the same number of cars at 1,000's of roadside chargers.  Many of the larger sites will have spare capacity since they will be selling less petrol and diesel when people start to switch, so will need less pumps.  Space which will be reallocated to EV 300KWh charge points.  The garages will do this anyway to maintain revenue, switching from selling one fuel source to another will simply happen, and people are used to it, so it will be the normal means of charging in cities when mass take up of EV's happens.

Edited 30 March, 20197 yr by widdershins

3 minutes ago, widdershins said:

I agree cars will be parked up somewhere for hours, but that isn't necessarily either less difficult, or less wasteful.  In a 2030's world where the majority have EV's you would be talking about most parking spaces having a charge point.  That's a whole lot of little chargers to be manufactured, a whole lot of holes to be dug in pavements, and tens of thousands of miles of heavier electric cabling from the local substations to those charge points to support all this new load that wasn't planned for when the streets were originally cabled.  Remember all the upset when Virgin was trenching in it's TV cables?  Trees dying from having roots chopped in half, uneven pavements, etc. from cowboy contractors doing a bodgit and scarper job.

 

That's leaving aside the sheer logistics of getting enough people and enough charge points manufactured in the next 10 years, the planning consents, wayleaves, local opposition, possible needs to upgrade transformers etc.  It's one thing to do a small pilot in one area and pour a country's worth of men and machines into that task, it's a different matter to do it on every street in every town and village.  Look at BT upgrading the Broadband infrastructure or Virgin rolling out it's cable network to see the mammoth scale of the task involved in streetside charging being available at every parking spot.  I was only able to get FTTC broadband late last year.  Full fibre is still a pipe dream round here.  Virgin cable isn't available in any houses within about 5 miles of here at least!

 

Sorry, but I think "Filling Stations" will be the only practical solution to any hopes of a fast take-up of EV's.  It will be a lot faster in every possible way to convert existing petrol stations to service 1,000's of EV cars per day than to serve the same number of cars at 1,000's of roadside chargers.  Many of the larger sites will have spare capacity since they will be selling less petrol and diesel when people start to switch, so will need less pumps.  Space which will be reallocated to EV 300KWh charge points.  The garages will do this anyway to maintain revenue, switching from selling one fuel source to another will simply happen, and people are used to it, so it will be the normal means of charging in cities when mass take up of EV's happens.

There's plenty of that sort of thing already. Look at Dundee where they already have three ev filling stations. East Ayrshire is about to build one too. Edinburgh is rolling out hundreds of charge points this year. 

 

Tesco are doing it too as are Morrisons. I've just been out with my son buying a mother's day present for tomorrow. Guess what the car did while we were shopping. We parked up at 80% cane back and it was at 99%. Cost us 50p to park for half an hour but would have been the same if we'd been on petrol.