Oil change interval

[prdisaac]

Hi, wondering if anyone had any thoughts on just changing the oil and not the oil filter at fairly frequent intervals (say 6k miles by extractor) and then having the oil filter and oil changed by dealer according to the longlife / flexible servicing regime (where they drain from the sump)? On my 1.4 tsi superb, the oil filter is right at the bottom front of the engine, so need to jack car up and remove under tray to change it. Where as with an extractor I can change the oil only in 20 minutes. This is what I did at 3k miles after running the car in, and was planning on doing the same at about 11k miles (just oil change) then it'll be going to the dealer when the variable servicing suggests (currently saying at about 18k miles) for a full oil and filter change where they drain from the sump plug and not extract. I figured if going to have fresh (proper long life spec) oil every 6k or so, there won't be much strain on the oil filter, and it should happily last the 18k or so, and still be filtering well... Got to be much better than just leaving original oil and filter in!

[RickTT]

Or maybe just book the car in every 12months or x number of miles for a oil and filter change..

 

Oil quality and filters are alot better than years ago.

[prdisaac]

Well I do 16-18k per year - and my dealer quoted only about £20 less per service for the fixed mileage services (not much cheaper than long life services).. I would need nearly 2 fixed services each year, as opposed to 1 variable - so fixed cost nearly roughly £400 a year (1 minor 1 major service) whereas variable would even out to approx £220 a year (plus £20 per oil change for 4l of high quality long life vw oil) - so quite a lot cheaper in the long run - and I hope better for the car. I'm just a little concerned about the effectiveness of leaving a filter on for 18k miles (even if has fresh oil every 6k or so)? And if anyone else does this? I plan to keep the car as long as I can - and everything I've read suggests long life oil changes are bad in the long run (great for company cars like my last few cars have been, that only have to last 4 years before the lease company sells on!)

[FelisBengalensis]

I have been driving long-life oil service cars since 1998 and never had an engine problem yet. If it was so bad then the industry would have killed it off due to expensive warranty claims. As said above, filters are much better than they were but for the price you pay for the oil, why not change the filter as it (IMHO) would be just penny pinching not to.

[prdisaac]

I'd happily change the oil filter if it were accessible - the ~£8 filter cost isn't the problem it's vw group's decision to locate the oil filter at the bottom front of the engine! This turns a 20 min oil change into a job involving jacking the car, removing the undertray, changing the filter and refitting everything... Not complicated, but time consuming. My old 2.0FSI was great as oil filter on top :-). I'm not worried about issues during the first 60k miles (warranty period) it's the 100k plus where I think it will probably help to have done frequent oil changes - especially on a turbo'd engine like 1.4 tsi. But as mentioned above, I'm hoping the improvements in oil filters (and oil) mean that oil only changes in between oil and filter changes at the long life intervals will be almost as good as changing the oil AND filter every 10k miles or so...

[Mike66]

Did 125,000 miles in Renault with 18k service intervals, with no engine issues. When I started driving, 30 years ago, then 6k service intervals were normal. If manufacturer is happy with 18k intervals, then we should be.

[SuperbTWM]

Hi, wondering if anyone had any thoughts on just changing the oil and not the oil filter at fairly frequent intervals (say 6k miles by extractor) and then having the oil filter and oil changed by dealer according to the longlife / flexible servicing regime (where they drain from the sump)? On my 1.4 tsi superb, the oil filter is right at the bottom front of the engine, so need to jack car up and remove under tray to change it. Where as with an extractor I can change the oil only in 20 minutes. This is what I did at 3k miles after running the car in, and was planning on doing the same at about 11k miles (just oil change) then it'll be going to the dealer when the variable servicing suggests (currently saying at about 18k miles) for a full oil and filter change where they drain from the sump plug and not extract. I figured if going to have fresh (proper long life spec) oil every 6k or so, there won't be much strain on the oil filter, and it should happily last the 18k or so, and still be filtering well... Got to be much better than just leaving original oil and filter in!

 

How many miles do you do a year? The best thing to do is compromise between time and mileage. I was planning on doing an intermediate oil and filter change between the dealer servicing but I'm only going to have done 6 or 7K miles in a year so I won't bother, But if i was doing 20K a year I would do the oil and filter every 10K/6months, not because the oil won't last mainly because it would make me feel better.

 

Personally I think the long life service is suited to some people who do high mileage, because they get their oil changed regularly even if it is after nearly 20K. But some cars that should be on a fixed interval seem to be on the longlife which means they potter about doing short runs and go 2 years before a service and to me this is a bad thing and is likely to cause sludge and all sorts of crap building up over time. When I used to frequent the TT forum it was common practice to take the sump off and fit a new strainer when acquiring a used Mk1 with the 1.8T.

 

Also where a timing chain is concerned its even more important that the oil is fresh, especially with the known issues regarding the petrol engines dying all over the forum.

Edited 25 July, 2016 by SuperbTWM

[Rainmaker]

Personally I think the long life service is suited to some people who do high mileage, because they get their oil changed regularly even if it is after nearly 20K. But some cars that should be on a fixed interval seem to be on the longlife which means they potter about doing short runs and go 2 years before a service and to me this is a bad thing and is likely to cause sludge and all sorts of crap building up over time. 

 

That'd be true if long-life servicing was strictly 20k/2 years, but it's not. It's 'variable' servicing and the engine's sensors will call for an oil change as and when the oil degrades due to water content, shear/breakdown or whatever. My 2.0 TSI is on variable servicing and 3 months old (2.5k miles) is currently estimating the first oil change will be at 10k / 12 months...

 

OP I see your logic. If the oil filter will be on the engine for 20k if you do nothing, maybe it's better to change the oil at least, so it has less work to do overall and the oil stays nice and fresh. It's not bad logic, but I think pointless really. The modern fully synthetic long life oils are exceptionally good, and repeated tests have shown even with 1/4 of the oil missing and with very severe running conditions the engines are immaculate even after 100k miles. Wouldn't worry about it myself, but a mid-term oil-only change won't do any harm if it makes you feel better.

[blahde2]

Hi, wondering if anyone had any thoughts on just changing the oil and not the oil filter at fairly frequent intervals.

I figured if going to have fresh (proper long life spec) oil every 6k or so, there won't be much strain on the oil filter, and it should happily last the 18k or so, and still be filtering well... !

If anything, filter tech hasn't moved on much and they haven't gotten any bigger since the introduction of longline servicing.

Long life servicing suits cars which do long journeys often where the engine and oil stay hot the majority of the time. In this situation engine wear is much reduced, hence you can find hot seated Taxis running around on 2 million Kms here in Germany easily enough. They still have oil and filter changed as per the long life servicing but as engine is rarely (if ever) switched off, wear is negligible internally.

If you do short trips where the engine barely reaches operating temperature, then wear is much increased. Your oil filter will have had to work overtime, so by 5-7k it will be semi clogged causing a reduced flow of oil post filtering.

On short trips whilst on longlife servicing this gets worse, so by the time you're out of warranty you may have only had to have had one dealer service. Clever marketing sells this to you the customer as money saved and in your pocket = you are happy. The engine meanwhile has been running on reduced oil flow (or worse unfiltered via bypass) since 5k miles and some internal parts will have moved closer to point of failure than you realise.

Like another poster stated, for lease vehicles or company cars, long life servicing is brilliant as they don't keep the cars long enough to see the bigger bills flow in. Plus if they only have to pay for two services in 4 years it is a saving for them. Then next owner may have to fork out much more cash in the long run.

For us private owners, if you are keeping long term then service yearly, change oil filter every 5-6k miles and the oil at 10k miles. Oil tech has improved massively, but filter tech hasn't kept pace and in most cases the filter is still no better (or bigger) than one found under your bonnet 10 years ago. See attached picture for size, its smaller than a 330ml coke can!! 

 

I am a mechanical engineer and work with heavy diesel vehicles in the military. The MoD has gone full on into Oil health Monitoring (OHM) and it's paying them back big time! It has greatly reduced the over servicing of engines and transmissions and can even highlight likely engine transmission failures (and their likely cause) before they occur. Very intelligent service and incredibly useful for vehicle fleets such as the MoD's.

If you want to, buy yourself a test kit, take a sample and send it away for analysis. The sensors in your car which monitor oil health really only measure the oil viscosity and pressure before and after the filter. It's not that technical, but an OHM company will tell you what state your oil is in down to metal trace types and content, and how much of those fancy additives etc are left to do their job.

I do mainly short journeys and probably should have bought a petrol in all honesty. But I didn't and so will therefore have to change my oil and filter much more regularly than stated by the manual. It'll cost me more overall but it will always be cheaper than a turbo going one month and a big end 4 months later!

Manufacturers want your money and if their cars were indestructible they would never get any £££ back from their customers bar the regular servicing. Your engine costs between £3-8k new, so an oil starved engine will cost you many ££££ to repair/replace.

Each to there own though, but short term clever marketing as "saved money in your pocket" will eventually cost you more the end.

Edited 10 December, 2016 by blahde2

[prdisaac]

As an update, last month I changed the oil and filter on my superb 1.4 tsi (filter bought through TPS, who supply all the VW/Audi/Skoda/Seat dealers with official parts for £2.80!). I’ve decided to go with a diy oil and filter change once in between variable services (car is still saying first oil change due at 18,700miles, I changed oil and filter myself at 9,200 miles). Doesn’t appear to be using any oil (I did run it in fairly carefully, making sure I loaded the engine when warm, and gradually increased revs over the first 3-5k). Engine has loosened up nicely now at 11k.

Changing the filter was no issue – removing the undertray a quick job (only about 6 bolts), and don’t really have to go under the car much as filter at the front bottom of the engine. Was surprising how much oil came out of the filter, and from the engine feed pipe, when removing filter AFTER draining the oil – so well worth changing the filter I think.  I used an oil extractor (nice and fuss/mess free), in the knowledge that every other oil change by the dealer it will drained from the sump plug (I’ve confirmed this with the dealer).

[inaaris]

The way I have done it thus far with different VAG cars is more expensive than what any of you have pointed out thus far.

So, how have I maintained all my cars?

Toyota had a custom back in the day (10 years ago) that every new engine needs its first oil change at 3000km to clear all crap that has been made from breaking the engine in.

This is one of the things I have done to all my cars thusfar. All engines I have had (3.0 TDI , 2.0 TSI , 1.2 TSI and 1.4 TSI) have been good for extensive kilometers. For instance I sold my 3.0 TDI A6 with 450 000 KM on the clock, everything being superb.

When it comes to engine oil and filters change (I'm doing those all together every time, meaning every time I change engine oil, filters get changed as well, i.e oilfilter, airfilter and warmth filter). I do it after every 10 000km. Some of you will criticice this kind of approach. But this has worked for me and I will continue doing it, because of a simple fact , maintanence > some kind of repair. 

Automatic gearbox every 40 000km. I dont know what the regulation is now' days , but the time I had my my first, second and third car with automatic transmission (Multitronic, Tiptronic and DSG) they did not see that oil needs to be changed in the transmission. This caused many many problems and really expensive problems for owners to handle. VAG group has been in court with these allegations for the last ten years. I quess the regulation is more precice these days.

The point of the general maintenance is really simple actually. When you plan to drive the car for 5 years (normal lease period) then do excactly as the service says, the propability of nothing happening is about 90 - 95% I think. But when you plan to drive the car for the next 7-8 years then I would recommend you for to take really good care of car from day 1. Want an example why this is important? Check the forum, where there are owners of 4-6 year old Superbs. You will get the point.
+ I dont know how many of you guys care about that, but the way we take care of our pretty much brand new Superbs determines how this car will be viewed 4-5 years from now. So every owner of whatever car brand is actually responsible for how this car will be viewed in the future (a small drop in the ocean kind of responsibility, but something still ).

This is my opinion of the matter you are talking about.

 

Cheers.

Indrek.

[blahde2]

I'm with you good sir, and as mine normally does lower mile journeys I will be changing the oil and filter at 7,000 miles, so approx 800ish more than your 10,000kms.

The oils and filters are good, but the filter isn't big enough and oil starvation will start to occur (small enough to cause issues esrlier 5-7 year point) well before the 10,000k 1st service is due.

Over service and it should go forever...

[MartiniB]

+1

first Engine's Oil change i made on 6500km and next planned on 16000km

just have doubts was it worth fill ~2x expensive long life Valvoline 5w30 SynPower XL-III for that small intervals

another question what is best oil & interval for wet DSG6

[teebs]

First oil change just before 17,000, next one due at 35,000 (6,000 miles time). Mine is a Alphabet lease car, so no choice over intervals etc

[edbostan]

Engines are made to better tolerances and of better materials. Engine oils have improved beyond recognition and engine management systems ensure engines always run under optimum conditions. What wears out first these days are the car interiors.

Edited 8 November, 2016 by edbostan

[YvesD]

All true, independent oil analysis will also confirm that the additive packs are already breaking down at 4k plus miles, particularly on the lubricity measure. Contamination is also there.

Car manufacturers are happy to promote long service intervals as it attracts the fleet buyers. Also means components will wear out faster than necessary meaning sooner product replacement. Win win for them.

[edbostan]

Going back to the 40s and 50s engines were knackered at 40,000 miles. My father, bless him, had a Hepolite manual which recommended a re-bore and new rings at that mileage. We have a lot to be thankful for

Edited 8 November, 2016 by edbostan

[RickTT]

All true, independent oil analysis will also confirm that the additive packs are already breaking down at 4k plus miles, particularly on the lubricity measure. Contamination is also there.

Car manufacturers are happy to promote long service intervals as it attracts the fleet buyers. Also means components will wear out faster than necessary meaning sooner product replacement. Win win for them.

 

And cheaper servicing costs for buyers... plus less courtesy cars needed for dealers. 

[blahde2]

Engines are made to better tolerances and of better materials. Engine oils have improved beyond recognition and engine management systems ensure engines always run under optimum conditions. What wears out first these days are the car interiors.

Very true, but filter tech (although better) still falls short /or they are much too small for the time they are expected to function. Most of the time they work so well that they are partially clogged by the 4-7k mark. This leads to oil starvation of varying degrees and even the operation of the oil bypass valve under heavy load.

Unfiltered oil is better than no oil but just adds to the problem over time. When the filter is partially blocked, oil still flows just not under the same pressure as was designed.

This leaves those hard to fill oil galleries running short of lubricating ooomph, meaning your big ends and piston bushes etc wear faster.

If you don't change the oil, at least change the filter (personal vehicle) earlier than recommend. Leased cars, the problems are unlikely to be yours when they surface at 3-7 years point.

Edited 9 November, 2016 by blahde2

[MartiniB]

first changed at 6 500 km (Valvoline 5w30 SynPower XL-III)

first added liter at 13 000km (Castrol 5w40 ???)

second changed at 15 600 km (Valvoline 5w40 MXL All Climate)

third change planned at ~25 000 km

change in DSG6 planned at 40k km instead suggested 60k

[BillyJim]

All true, independent oil analysis will also confirm that the additive packs are already breaking down at 4k plus miles, particularly on the lubricity measure. Contamination is also there.

Car manufacturers are happy to promote long service intervals as it attracts the fleet buyers. Also means components will wear out faster than necessary meaning sooner product replacement. Win win for them.

So how come my S2 was still running perfectly sweet after 4 years and only two services (on variable) with no other components ever needing repair/replacement?

Kind of blows a hole in that argument.

It's not a win/win if a vehicle manufacturer's car gets a reputation of being unreliable!

[YvesD]

Hi, what I'm trying to convey is that our oil is in nowhere near as good a condition as people think it is, even at relatively low mileage.

Whether that's a concern for owners is a different matter of course.

Cheers

[glosrich]

Variable servicing is OK for the fleets and the manufacturers, runs the car cheaply as possible until its out of warranty.

 

And most of the reliability data is based on the warranty period, so as long as the engine lasts over 3 years its all OK.

 

The problem arises when the cars are purchased used after 3 years and then experience engine problems related to wear and oil starvation. Usually the unfortunate private buyer picks up the bill.

 

For the price of an oil change, its stupid to not do it every year, its a small price compared to most engine repairs.

 

However if I was leasing a new car, I can understand why someone may chose variable servicing, as it keeps the cost down, and they don't care what happens to it when its handed back. 

 

Whats the morality of that attitude, and are we just propagating the 'throw-away' society we live in?

[GrahamGM]

Having been in the trade for a number of years, I've seen the consequences of infrequent oil changes, particularly on VW family Diesel engines, most notably premature wear issues. It's for that reason that I've had mine set to time and distance instead of variable servicing.

[blahde2]

Having been in the trade for a number of years, I've seen the consequences of infrequent oil changes, particularly on VW family Diesel engines, most notably premature wear issues. It's for that reason that I've had mine set to time and distance instead of variable servicing.

 

Likewise, I think for private owners planning on keeping their cars for many years (me at least 10), it makes all the sense in the world to change more frequently.

Go to N.America where it is strongly suggested by manufacturers and dealers to change your oil every 5k miles! Most owners get their oil changed at 5k max, even if it is a low mileage but huge 7.2ltr V8 which has spent most of its life doing 50mph on the interstates. 18 ltrs of oil in one of those lazy beasts!!

For a quick (drop in) lube change of 20mins or less, $30-$50 at Mr Lube is cheap as chips compared to UK or European oil prices! It is especially cheap when you opt for the 18ltrs of (premium) oil just so they offer to do your transmission oil for another $20!!  I must add that it was approx C$2 - £1 when I had to do it, so C$70 = £35-£40 for 18ltrs'ish of Premium Engine oil, 15ltrs'ish of Trans slush box oil, the labour and a cuppa Joe on the side, you'd be stupid not to change it.

Unfortunately for us Europeans, being charged £86 for a 5.4ltrs of Castrol 5W30 507 oil change by a dealer (not including 1.5hrs labour, filter or sump plug, they properly pulled my pants down!!) and having to book it in 2+ weeks in advance, you can see why we are at a disadvantage and like taking these service plans / longlife servicing options. It was a favour for my sister, I picked her Mk 5 Golf 2.0tdi up from the dealer so it wasn't out of my pocket in the end. But still, £86 just for the oil and a total cost of £224.11 for only an oil change (no inspection carried out) is horrendous!

If you want to know the true state of your oil, buy a sample kit and send it off to AES oil sampling ppl (or some other Comp, just Google oil sampling UK), and they will tell you exactly what state your oil is in, down to the qty, size and composition of the metallic particles in the oil. You will be surprised at how well they can predict what part of your engine is likely to pop first!!! They got mine bang on, twas just unfortunate that the result came in after the failure... (big end at 65mph outer lane & wife at the wheel! Self destruct it did!), old 4th hand Mk 4 Golf 1.9tdi on 158,000ish miles, no idea on servicing history as it was an emergency 3k mile between cars stop gap).

Edited 21 December, 2016 by blahde2