2 hours ago, SWBoy said:

And who is going to pay for providing those charging stations? The Government will claim they can't afford it, so it will need to be private companies who will want to make a profit. To me that sounds like charging will have to be something that the driver will pay for (cost of electricity plus contribution to cost of site plus profit).

 

And then there's time to charge issue - it currently takes around 5 minutes to fill and pay with petrol or diesel, if it takes longer than that to charge (and pay) then many more charging stations will be required than current fuel pumps. A typical motorway filling station may have 20 pumps so if charging takes even as little as 15 minutes it will require 60 charging stations - which will need a LOT of (expensive) land. OK supercapacitors can greatly reduce the charging time, but will substantially add to the weight of a vehicle, will need to be packaged somewhere (which will probably increase the size of the vehicle and hence add more weight) and supercapacitors use not insubstantial amounts of rare earth materials which are in very limited supply (hence why they're called rare earths) and hence expensive - and most of which are bought from China.

 

The challenges of providing sufficient generating capacity, limiting the losses in the electricity distribution network (more visibly intrusive and expensive copper overhead lines?) and charging infrastructure should not be underestimated - there simply isn't a quick fix. Time is needed to develop long-term viable solutions (which can be done, Mankind is a very inventive animal) but in the meantime we mustn't destroy the mobility upon which First World cultures depend by making fossil fuelled vehicles unusable or priced out of reach of the average working person.

 

We are rolling out much of the charging stations and as we have done in Paris and other cities.  It is usually a combination of City/state funding as well as private investment.  If it saves thousands of lives then this will save potential law suits in future years for local and country government not doing enough to prevent pollution which kills? (lesson from tobacco).

 

There are charges which can charge at 2 Kwh per minute ie 7 MJ per second.  Typically, and the model of Zoe I am going for, charges at 22 KwH (there is a penalty actually going fro the 43 KwH fast charger version ie you get 20 miles less NEDC range ie 250 miles for non fast charge and only 230 for fast charge version which you pay £1K extra for.  But with a 41 KwH battery you generally would only be looking at adding what you need and charging at home on the even cheaper Economy 7/10 electricity.

 

At home, from the wall box, it charges at 7 KwH so overnight it charges even the much larger capacity 41 KwH Zoe battery in the 7 hours (charging is about 90% efficient).  It will get me to Heathrow and then I can charge from one of the 10 chargers at the office.  These are currently only 3.6 Kw ones but due to be upgraded to a mixture of 7 and 22 KwH ones.  

 

Superconductors, and we make them as well as LMP batteries and cars, are used in conduction with the Lithium battery and new revisions are coming out every year to go in to "normal cars" ie use in their regenerative brakes and increasingly replacing the lead acid battery with L-ion ones.

 

It is a steady more to EV which the new UK VED system will push forward in fifty days time and with ten charging stations a day opening up and with garages finding they cannot make money selling fuel to a diminishing market (less young people even bothering to get a licence) and hence closing to convert to a car wash or car sales yard the movement is in the EV direction and the cost model goes more in favour of EV every month as fuel goes up in cost and availability EV charging gets better.  It is purely a question of when to move over.         

What percentage of car owners can afford a new car?

 

A very small percentage by my reckoning, no?

 

Most folk are going to have to wait a very long time for an EV cast off to be affordable to them, and that is if the batteries are still serviceable in them.

I don't see charging for the daily commute or the urban drive as the issue, I see the issue as limited range when on longer trips such as going to visit family or friends, going on holiday, etc.

 

On longer trips such as that, especially when going to Europe, it's not uncommon to need to travel 500+ miles in a day (unless you can afford expensive overnight stops for the whole family), and adding EV charging time to stops could make that impossible (it's not the time to plug & unplug that matters, it's the time from arriving at a charging station to leaving it with a fully charged battery).

 

Personally, I have only seen 2 EV charging stations in the last 6 months despite driving over 6000 miles in that time - one at a very posh hotel near Winchester and one at a Little Chef on the A303 - so I would not be comfortable with using an EV at present outside of the distance where I know I can get back home or to a destination where I know I could charge it.

 

For the next few years at least, I see the only viable solution for those who need to regularly drive outside of urban areas as PHEVs and not full electric vehicles.

 

And that doesn't take account of the purchase cost of EV and PHEVs, nor the limited charge cycles of batteries (1000 full cycles lifetime is not untypical for Li-ion cells) and the cost of a new battery pack is not insignificant.

5 hours ago, SWBoy said:

I don't see charging for the daily commute or the urban drive as the issue, I see the issue as limited range when on longer trips such as going to visit family or friends, going on holiday, etc.   On longer trips such as that, especially when going to Europe, it's not uncommon to need to travel 500+ miles in a day (unless you can afford expensive overnight stops for the whole family), and adding EV charging time to stops could make that impossible (it's not the time to plug & unplug that matters, it's the time from arriving at a charging station to leaving it with a fully charged battery).  Personally, I have only seen 2 EV charging stations in the last 6 months despite driving over 6000 miles in that time - one at a very posh hotel near Winchester and one at a Little Chef on the A303 - so I would not be comfortable with using an EV at present outside of the distance where I know I can get back home or to a destination where I know I could charge it.  For the next few years at least, I see the only viable solution for those who need to regularly drive outside of urban areas as PHEVs and not full electric vehicles.  And that doesn't take account of the purchase cost of EV and PHEVs, nor the limited charge cycles of batteries (1000 full cycles lifetime is not untypical for Li-ion cells) and the cost of a new battery pack is not insignificant.

 

I am expecting that a Renault Zoe ZE 40 will comfortably do the 120 mile, each way, commute I  do sometimes from Worcester to Cambridge or Heathrow, so 240 miles with a top up at Cambridge/Heathrow and then back a few hours later and fully charge overnight. Visiting Family/Friends a quick look at zap maps https://www.zap-map.com/ would reveal which car parks, supermarkets, service station has the faster charger but also take a "Granny" charge cable ie one fitted with the 13A plug, to use from a 3 pin socket if needed (box of chocolates to the house owner should see everyone happy).  Cost of box of chocolates to restore the 186 mile summer, 124 mile very cold condition mile range rather than £25 of fuel seems a bargain (if it was very cold would probably take a IC engined car but spring, summer, autumn take the EV).

 

I am from the South-West and I know that apart from the service station every 20 miles or so, with the notable exception that the Devon Expressway, ie A38 Exeter to Plymouth is poor, but Cornwall quite good all the way down to Lands End where there is a 43 Kw/Hr charger.   There are 13,000 charge points open most of the time plus charge anywhere you can get to a plug or mostly it will be from the 7 Kw home charger working on Economy 7/10 electricity.

 

The batteries tend to leased rather than bought and if they degrade to 25% below original capacity then Renault will replace FOC within 5 years though many will look to upgrade as the new replacement battery packs are gaining 20-30% each year at current rate of improvement and are designed to fit in with almost no wright penalty.  The idea of saving three quarters of the thousands a year I spend on fuel and stop contribution to the bulk of pollution is very attractive to me and increasingly a financial one too.     

12 hours ago, lol-lol said:

The batteries tend to leased rather than bought and if they degrade to 25% below original capacity then Renault will replace FOC within 5 years though many will look to upgrade as the new replacement battery packs are gaining 20-30% each year at current rate of improvement and are designed to fit in with almost no wright penalty.  The idea of saving three quarters of the thousands a year I spend on fuel and stop contribution to the bulk of pollution is very attractive to me and increasingly a financial one too.     

25% - so your range reduces from 240-400km(150-250miles) down to 80-100km (50-60miles) before Renault will acknowledge the problem. The will make even one way of your Worcester to Cambridge commute impossible. And if the batteries last longer than 5 years? - you pay the increased leasing cost (because of inflation and higher demand the price is bound to go up - and I would suggest by more than inflation as the batteries will be "newer technology").

 

13,00 charge points - mostly centered in and around the large conurbations?

 

Once charging points become commercial operations (which IMHO they will have to be to get the number required) and you start paying for charging when not at home, work, friend, family, etc. the cost differential will narrow.

http://thesun.co.uk/news/2874539/chancellor-told-to-launch-scrappage-scheme-that-will-pay-drivers-to-trade-in-their-dirty-vehicles 

 

Maybe England & Wales is just not getting the Infrastructure in quick enough and the government needs to pull a finger out as they have been warned that they 

are spending too much on the wrong things and they need to seriously address pollution.

 

EV's that are not suitable for many does not mean that applies to others that can use them for their needs.

The UK needs to incentify EV's use and they were doing that, now they need to do more and also make their use much easier.

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35399212

 

As to Electricity, and supplies and infrastructure etc, not only needs doing for Vehicle Charging but for Homes and Work places in England & Wales.

No point firing up Diesel Farms and Dirty Coal Fired and Gas Fired Power Stations if there is not enough Electricity Generation for the National Grids / users needs.

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-38984848

Edited 16 February, 20179 yr by Offski

12 hours ago, SWBoy said:

25% - so your range reduces from 240-400km(150-250miles) down to 80-100km (50-60miles) before Renault will acknowledge the problem. The will make even one way of your Worcester to Cambridge commute impossible. And if the batteries last longer than 5 years? - you pay the increased leasing cost (because of inflation and higher demand the price is bound to go up - and I would suggest by more than inflation as the batteries will be "newer technology").   13,00 charge points - mostly centered in and around the large conurbations?  Once charging points become commercial operations (which IMHO they will have to be to get the number required) and you start paying for charging when not at home, work, friend, family, etc. the cost differential will narrow.

 

25% of 186 miles is 140 miles for the warm weather range.  In extreme cold you could be getting only 93 miles so I do not think one would take the EV in sub zero temperatures although one can precondition the car via your mobile phone App whilst the car is still connected to the wall charger and the same for the return journey from the work site.

 

If you rent the batteries then the fix or replace if they drop below 75% I think it is the full period of the battery lease and even unlimited mileage.  There are only 8,000 fuel stations and three quarters of the over 30,000 there were have closed and continue to close.  Even petrol station owners themselves recognise they need to convert to supplying electricity rather than hydrocarbons.   The charge points are spread pretty much in proportion to the population ie one per 3,500 adults and dropping.  

 

Birmingham taxi emission targets threaten 2,000 taxis

 

(Air pollution kills about 900 a year in Birmingham).

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-38990253

 

Hundreds of taxi drivers claim they could be put out of business by a bid to reduce pollution in Birmingham.

The government has said Birmingham must be among six English cities with a Clean Air Zone by 2020.  The council proposes licensed vehicles must meet EU standards on emissions by December to have licenses renewed.  The authority estimates 1,428 private hire cars and 530 hackney carriages would fail the test. Drivers say their livelihoods are being threatened.  The city's fleet is 4,200 private hire cars and 1,233 hackney carriages.  The penalty for not meeting standards is not being allowed in the city or being charged to enter.

Read more Birmingham and Black Country stories

Drivers say they can either pay £8,000 to convert cars to use liquid petroleum gas (LPG) or buy electric taxis costing around £40,000..... If it does not achieve the Clean Air Zone in time, the council estimates it could face a £60m fine.

 

 

12 hours ago, lol-lol said:

In extreme cold you could be getting only 93 miles so I do not think one would take the EV in sub zero temperatures

A car I can't use whenever I need it? Or when my wife has just gone into labour?

 

No thank you.

 

I think he's saying : take the R3 ? 

14 hours ago, lol-lol said:

so I do not think one would take the EV in sub zero temperatures although one can precondition the car via your mobile phone App whilst the car is still connected to the wall charger and the same for the return journey from the work site.

 

2 hours ago, SWBoy said:

A car I can't use whenever I need it? Or when my wife has just gone into labour?

No thank you.

I think someone is assuming we can all afford a new electric vehicle as well as one still running a diesel because the EV will not always take us far enough. Oh, and I think they think electric is free, and grows on trees.

There are parts of the UK where the Electricity Charging is Free to those charging cars and the 6 Year Loan to purchase a vehicle is interest free, and there are leasing deals that mean having a EV costs less to lease each week than the petrol or diesel you would put in a Lease Vehicle that you pay for the vehicle as well as fuel.

(Does not grow on trees but it can be Green Energy harvested from turbines turning, or water going down hill and turning turbines.)

Diesel & Petrol comes due to dead trees and vegetation and with some added bio from the growing of trees.

After getting the oil out from under the land / sea it takes a lot of energy / electricity to make it into road & heating fuels.

 

If EV's do not suit your needs you just don't get one.

Or maybe you join a Car Club or Hire if there are only occasions you need a vehicle to do stuff that an EV can not for you.

 

Edited 17 February, 20179 yr by Offski

16 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

 Even petrol station owners themselves recognise they need to convert to supplying electricity rather than hydrocarbons.   The charge points are spread pretty much in proportion to the population ie one per 3,500 adults and dropping.  

 

Cite needed. Also an appreciation of the fact that population density is not even needed.

 

I know roads where I can drive for 60 miles and never pass a reekin' house.

I thought we were about to have an energy crisis in the UK. Where is all the power coming from to charge these additional EVs?   I'm not against them  - it just seems we are moving the problem to somewhere else. 

Is it not England or the southern parts of England has an electricity crisis, Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland, maybe even the Channel Isles and the IOM are doing just dandy.

5 hours ago, SWBoy said:

A car I can't use whenever I need it? Or when my wife has just gone into labour?

No thank you.

 

 

One cannot rely on any car 100% of the time.   Was asked to go to Stansted today.  One car booked in for service, discovered the other with a flat tyre.  Cars are only reliable 99.*% of the time anyways and it is probably wise to have a backup car if one has an EV or any other car.

 

Call an ambulance but even they breakdown sometimes and then queue for a few hours when they get to our broken NHS or in Worcester you might get in and die on a trolley like we have had two so far this year.    

4 hours ago, punyXpress said:

I think he's saying : take the R3 ? 

 

And there is no hand holds for the passenger too for extra excitement!  Might get and MT03 rack but then I have to drill holes in the beautiful bodywork......

That tail need to go.....

 

 

  

1 hour ago, KenONeill said:

Cite needed. Also an appreciation of the fact that population density is not even needed.

 

I know roads where I can drive for 60 miles and never pass a reekin' house.

 

Think there are 400 charge locations and 800 chargers in Scotland so for a population of 5M . I do not think there is any where more than 30 miles or 50 Kms away from and EV point and can use a 3 pin plug charger in one can access one of those.   

 

https://www.zap-map.com/live/  See the map....

 

If it is out of way of the journey then I a can understand it is not for everyone yet but it is coming especially in an electricity/energy reach place like Scotland. 

Edited 17 February, 20179 yr by lol-lol

1 hour ago, io1901 said:

I thought we were about to have an energy crisis in the UK. Where is all the power coming from to charge these additional EVs?   I'm not against them  - it just seems we are moving the problem to somewhere else. 

 

Lots more wind turbines going up daily, 

Lots.  

Just need to see what Philip Hammond MP comes up with in the Budget.

http://zap-map.com/location-search/scotland-charging-point 

Edited 17 February, 20179 yr by Offski

38 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Lots more wind turbines going up daily, 

The latest data I've seen published (in IET News) showed that the average generated power from wind turbines as a ratio of their installed capacity in 2016 was 0.1%. This low figure is partly due to days when there is no wind or too much wind, and partly due to the current pricing structure meaning that generators actually get paid at least as much (some commentators say more) when they are not generating.

 

Yesterday I saw a quote that in the USA they will need to increase generating capacity by 50% if/when all cars are EVs.

 

Taking those together suggests that relying on wind turbines is not a viable solution to non-fossil electricity generation. My personal opinion is that far more money needs to be invested into tidal flow generation research as that is far more predictable than either solar or wind, and if sited around the coast of the UK to take advantage of different tide times would need far less power storage schemes too.

Interesting just how much the owners of Coal & Gas fired power stations are paid to not generate but be ready to.

Also the Diesel Farms.

And just how much the decommissioning of the Nuclear is costing the electricity customers in the UK.

 Once the current extended life Nuclear Station need to shut down there is the many decades if not centuries of the UK population paying for their decommissioning.

 

Just as well that the UK manages to keep paying minimum payments on the Credit Card.

59 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

Lots more wind turbines going up daily, 

 

 

Not much use if the demand and wind don't cooperate.

14 minutes ago, SWBoy said:

My personal opinion is that far more money needs to be invested into tidal flow generation research as that is far more predictable than either solar or wind, and if sited around the coast of the UK to take advantage of different tide times would need far less power storage schemes too.

 

It isn't far more predictable - it is predictable.

 

We have great problems storing electrical power and have always (nearly always) produced it on demand. There are are methods to "capture" it using kinetic methods or say making hydrogen (for use in fuel cells).

 

 

That is where the infrastructure & technology needs to catch up with the ability to generate, storage is required, 

so more Hydro Storage & Pumping Stations, Interconnectors to the likes Norway, Battery Storage / Off Peak and producing Hydrogen. 

 

The South of the UK needs more Nuclear Generation or the Dirty Power Stations back on and to pay higher tariffs because 

they are so demanding on power and causing pollution.

Odd that the areas towards the North of England & North of Perth in Scotland with the Nuclear, Gas Powered Stations, Wind & Solar and Hydro generations pay more for Electricity.

Edited 17 February, 20179 yr by Offski