VRS TDI DSG - totally underwhelmed with the performance!

[cherry evo]

Okay guys, is it me or what? Had my VRS TDI DSG Combi for 15 months and done 40k miles but the performance - or lack of it, is VERY disappointing...... My previous lightly flashed over Altea BXE 105 was what it was - about 130bhp tops, but my Octy  - considering its at least 50bhp more is no quicker! A long climb up a hill near me, the Octy is no quicker than the Altea.... Its been in for service three times and each time I've asked them about the [lack of] performance but they say its fine..... Anyone else think their 184 is more like 124?

[Item]

On paper the VRS is faster/better in every way - more torque/more HP/faster 0-60.

 

How "breathed on" was the Alatea?!

 

...not sure what to tell you really - do you have a measurement point to compare the performance of the two objectively, or are you just going off the trusted-yet-often-unreliable "Butt-Dyno"?

[Ootohere]

It is what it is, a dirty diesel estate car, if you want more Remap it if you own it!  Simply Clever.

Edited 3 August, 2017 by Awayoffski

[xpower]

It's the way the torque is managed - in standard form it is very linear.......

It means the whilst it performs reasonably well on paper it doesn't 'feel' quick.

 

If you were to get in a mk4 GT TDI 130 PD engine it would feel quicker.

Thats where a remap comes in, it's not just BHP you are chasing, it's more torque and adjusting the torque management so delivery is better (feels quicker)

 

Of course that eats the tyres but who cares about that 

[KarlO3V5]

I'm with you on this point. The way that the VRS delivers power does dull the performance "feel of the car".

 

Unlike the PD engines like in my old Fabia VRS the power is fed very linear from a very low RPM instead of dumping it all in at 2500RPM.

 

I've fitted a DTUK box which makes it a bit more bearable - it's only when you record the speedo do you get an idea of how fast they are.

 

Here'es my VRS DSG TDi in action

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImlpvgzfPro

 

 

[Ootohere]

^^^ 

The OP has had the car for 15 months & done 40,000 miles so surely knows he / she drives a slug.

No amount of spin, or comparing with others changes that they think they have the need for more speed.

 

Getting a remap if you own it, or a tuning box if not, or get shot and get something with go and not just show / plastic tat and a badge.

[tubbytommy]

It's a heavy car with 184bhp diesesel engine.

This is why it's slow

[stu83]

3 hours ago, xpower said:

It's the way the torque is managed - in standard form it is very linear.......

It means the whilst it performs reasonably well on paper it doesn't 'feel' quick.

 

If you were to get in a mk4 GT TDI 130 PD engine it would feel quicker.

 

This.

 

My VRS 230 (now 288bhp) doesn't 'feel' as fast as my MK1 LCR which only had 265bhp, but the Octavia definitely makes things disappear in the rear view mirror a LOT quicker.

[pist0nbr0ke]

It is not, and was never, a 'fast' car.

 

Even with a DTUK box and pedal box, mine's not 'fast'.

 

It is torquey and quick enough for what I need though, and the 4x4 means very little wheelspin, albeit at the expense of some additional weight.

 

The biggest disconnection in the driving experience for me is the DSG box. I really don't feel it works well with diesel, but I wanted the 4x4 vRS so had no option. Fine when cruising leisurely, but obstructive and indecisive when driving properly...especially on a technical, twisty road.

 

Value for money, it takes some beating though - I haven't found anything that beats it. 

[tomsimes]

Mine has a DTUK tuning box, so probably about 220/225 bhp. I've been in a friends RenaultSport Megane 275 Cup which feels a hell of a lot faster, but testing side by side from a rolling start shows very little difference. Yes, the Megane is quicker, but by nowhere near as much as of of us imagined it would be.

 

The basics is that the Octavia is quick (and even more so with a box/remap), but being a smooth delivery diesel car just means it doesn't feel fast.

[ahenners]

Agree with what has been said, the PD diesels' torque comes in a big lump, where as the CR diesels are more linear. Plenty of people complained about the "feel" of the MK2 facelift 170 CR VRS vs the MK2 pre-facelift 170 PD VRS. The VRS is probably quicker than that Altea, though not by much if it was mapped and lighter, but won't feel it.

 

I was disappointed with the performance (and noise) of the diesel when I test drove one, so bought the petrol instead. A diesel with a remap is probably as quick (or close) to the petrol, but I tend to leave my cars standard so this wasn't an option.

[Sec8200]

4x4 and the DSG weight makes difference.

 

But still should be fast enough. If you compare it by feeling PD feels quicker but for a second. CR engines is more linear as others said.

Also noise isolation is a big factor in feelings.

 

Make it a test run with other similar vRS head to head. Or just take a test drive vRS with same engine and haldex.

[TheOctaviator]

9 hours ago, pist0nbr0ke said:

It is not, and was never, a 'fast' car.

 

Even with a DTUK box and pedal box, mine's not 'fast'.

 

It is torquey and quick enough for what I need though, and the 4x4 means very little wheelspin, albeit at the expense of some additional weight.

 

The biggest disconnection in the driving experience for me is the DSG box. I really don't feel it works well with diesel, but I wanted the 4x4 vRS so had no option. Fine when cruising leisurely, but obstructive and indecisive when driving properly...especially on a technical, twisty road.

 

Value for money, it takes some beating though - I haven't found anything that beats it. 

When I'm on twisting roads, usually in France, I find it's much better suited to using the paddles or gearlever to change gears. This road is definitely more fun in'manual' mode. http://www.drivingforpleasure.co.uk/roads-and-tours/euro-road.php?s=2011-09-16-route-de-la-napoleon

Edited 3 August, 2017 by TheOctaviator
Additional information

[cherry evo]

Cheers everyone for replying and your views! 

 

As said, my Altea was a 1.9 105pd and really was not very quick at all - I wasnt expecting it to be but it was a company car so I didnt have much option....... I had it flashed over and told the company that did it, that as it was a company/lease car I didnt want loads of poke as I needed it to be reliable - they suggested about 25bhp extra, but it was just right for what it was. I had the opportunity to opt out and have my own car and as I'd always wanted an Octavia vRS thats what I got. The comment about the DSG dulling the performance is bang on, but even overall in 6th and 2k+ revs, it doesnt pull noticeably harder than the old PD tractor... There is a long climb after the end of the M4 which I travel virtually every day, the Altea before flash would struggle to do 70, after flash it would touch 3 figures, I was expecting the Octy to be doing much more but its virtually the same! Doing over 30k miles a year a petrol is not an option and whilst a diesel estate can never be described as a 'sports car', nevertheless, 184bhp is decent power and I feel it should go better than what it does. Wouldnt mind the disappointing performance if it was doing 50+mpg but the economy is crap too! Oh well...... I think a DTUK box is needed.... 

[dunc69]

@cherry evo what mpg are you getting then?

 

The petrol vRS will average mid- to high-30s if driven sensibly on the motorway and can get close to 40 if you are careful. 

 

Maybe a petrol might not be such a bad idea if you want more 'go'!  I love mine (220 Estate) and it really suits DSG too. 

 

 

[cherry evo]

7 minutes ago, dunc69 said:

@cherry evo what mpg are you getting then?

 

The petrol vRS will average mid- to high-30s if driven sensibly on the motorway and can get close to 40 if you are careful. 

 

Maybe a petrol might not be such a bad idea if you want more 'go'!  I love mine (220 Estate) and it really suits DSG too. 

 

 

Early 40's generally, can get 50+ if I have a long motorway drive and keep at 70. Didnt expect it to be like the Altea on fuel as its over 50bhp more powerful - even though it has stop/start and 8 years technology on the Altea but I did expect it to be quicker. Was demolished by a 140 Scirocco recently...........

[ahenners]

1 hour ago, dunc69 said:

@cherry evo what mpg are you getting then?

 

The petrol vRS will average mid- to high-30s if driven sensibly on the motorway and can get close to 40 if you are careful. 

 

Maybe a petrol might not be such a bad idea if you want more 'go'!  I love mine (220 Estate) and it really suits DSG too. 

 

 

 

Close to 40 if careful...? You're doing it wrong. Mid 40's is possible if you're careful, close to 50 is possible if very careful.

 

My last tank average over 9 days of mixed driving was 40mpg!

 

 

Edited 3 August, 2017 by ahenners

[dunc69]

4 minutes ago, ahenners said:

 

Close to 40 if careful...? You're doing it wrong. Mid 40's is possible if you're careful, close to 50 is possible if very careful.

 

My last tank average over 9 days of mixed driving was 40mpg!

 

 

That's very impressive. Don't think I'll ever get  such figures. I enjoy the power too much I guess. 

[dunc69]

1 hour ago, cherry evo said:

Early 40's generally, can get 50+ if I have a long motorway drive and keep at 70. Didnt expect it to be like the Altea on fuel as its over 50bhp more powerful - even though it has stop/start and 8 years technology on the Altea but I did expect it to be quicker. Was demolished by a 140 Scirocco recently...........

@cherry evoPetrol vRS time for you I'd say!! 

 

If you can get @ahenners-like economy when you want to & the pace you are clearly missing when you want that, it's a win/win!! 

[ahenners]

18 minutes ago, dunc69 said:

@cherry evoPetrol vRS time for you I'd say!! 

 

If you can get @ahenners-like economy when you want to & the pace you are clearly missing when you want that, it's a win/win!! 

 

It is a great blend of performance and economy when you need it to be. I do 15k a year and the diesel would probably be the more obvious choice at that mileage, but the economy of the petrol is good enough and the additional pace means it can cover both sides of the coin reasonably well.

 

Not everyone will get the same figures I guess and my core commute is 20 miles motorway each way which helps the figures somewhat. The tank averages are still decent though and I do much shorter trips at weekends and some evenings. Still rarely see anything less than 30 even on the shorter trips.

 

Attached a screenshot of my last 10 tank averages (calculated on fill ups), in case anyone wants to call custard on my claims.

 

Anyway... The OP bought diesel, so I'll stop banging on about how good I think the Petrol is now.... 

 

I'd happily own another diesel, but nothing short of a BMW 6 cylinder unit. They are incredible from both an economy and performance perspective. My previous 330D was quicker and better on fuel than my VRS!

Edited 3 August, 2017 by ahenners

[pist0nbr0ke]

3 hours ago, TheOctaviator said:

When I'm on twisting roads, usually in France, I find it's much better suited to using the paddles or gearlever to change gears. This road is definitely more fun in'manual' mode. http://www.drivingforpleasure.co.uk/roads-and-tours/euro-road.php?s=2011-09-16-route-de-la-napoleon

 

Agreed, using paddles is much better.

 

One thing that really, really winds me up though is this:

 

If you are cruising, in say 3rd, at maybe 2000rpm, and suddenly an overtaking opportunity presents itself - regardless if you are in D, S or manual, if you absolutely floor it to grab your chance, it will kick down to the gear below. This results in the engine screaming away at 4000+rpm where there is f3ck all power, leaving you momentarily going nowhere in a hurry and alongside your chosen 'victim', until the DSG decides to shift to 3rd again or you override with the paddles, and then surge past on a 3000rpm wave of torque. This, for me, is one of the main reasons the DSG doesn't suit the diesel perfectly IMHO.

 

Yes, you can prevent it kicking down by not flooring it like you're stamping on a wasp, but that doesn't contribute to a swift, decisive overtake. Infuriating!

 

Most overtaking manoeuvres can be planned somewhat in advance with anticipation or local road knowledge, but sometimes on an unfamiliar road a chance just appears... 

[tomsimes]

3 hours ago, cherry evo said:

 There is a long climb after the end of the M4 which I travel virtually every day, the Altea before flash would struggle to do 70, after flash it would touch 3 figures, I was expecting the Octy to be doing much more but its virtually the same! Doing over 30k miles a year a petrol is not an option and whilst a diesel estate can never be described as a 'sports car', nevertheless, 184bhp is decent power and I feel it should go better than what it does. Wouldnt mind the disappointing performance if it was doing 50+mpg but the economy is crap too! Oh well...... I think a DTUK box is needed.... 

Just seen this and realised you're relatively local - I'm Newport, but head further West on occasions. Happy to take you for a spin in mine with DTUK box fitted if you want to see the difference? Also more than happy to turn my box off and do a short comparison, as mine is much, much faster than a 140 Scirocco - we had one of them a few years ago too.

 

Let me know if you want to take me up on the offer.

[cherry evo]

22 minutes ago, tomsimes said:

Just seen this and realised you're relatively local - I'm Newport, but head further West on occasions. Happy to take you for a spin in mine with DTUK box fitted if you want to see the difference? Also more than happy to turn my box off and do a short comparison, as mine is much, much faster than a 140 Scirocco - we had one of them a few years ago too.

 

Let me know if you want to take me up on the offer.

 

Thats great, thanks. Is yours manual or DSG? I think its the 'box that numbs it... even though its great day to day doing fairly big miles, it spoils the performance.

[MattChr]

10 hours ago, pist0nbr0ke said:

 

Agreed, using paddles is much better.

 

One thing that really, really winds me up though is this:

 

If you are cruising, in say 3rd, at maybe 2000rpm, and suddenly an overtaking opportunity presents itself - regardless if you are in D, S or manual, if you absolutely floor it to grab your chance, it will kick down to the gear below. This results in the engine screaming away at 4000+rpm where there is f3ck all power, leaving you momentarily going nowhere in a hurry and alongside your chosen 'victim', until the DSG decides to shift to 3rd again or you override with the paddles, and then surge past on a 3000rpm wave of torque. This, for me, is one of the main reasons the DSG doesn't suit the diesel perfectly IMHO.

 

 

Paddles are the way forward with overtakes...

See an opportunity coming up, flick it to the left to engage manual. Choose right gear for remaining and available power. Once overtake complete, back into D.

It was the only way I could safely, reliably overtake in the MK2 VRS diesel DSG. Also made driving in twisties and roundabouts far nicer too. Not that necessary for my new petrol VRS, but good fun :-)

 

 

[TDIum]

Agree that the DSG and TDI-170/184 combination is not a perfect match. 

Going for an overtake you just have to whap the DSG into S-mode or better still have it in manual already and knock into a lower gear when you are ready. To get the best out of a DSG especially if you are enjoying driving twisty roads you have to use it in manual.