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The story of the famous DQ200 clutch slip...


krigl

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1 minute ago, GKE said:

 

Wow this is great news! I guess you are FDM member since you were contacted?

I guess FDM/Skoda do not contact each and one of us Skoda owners by own initiative... I actually have an appointment tomorrow at Skoda - interesting if they mention the TPI (or else I will) :)

 

 

Great news for Skoda users. What about VW? They should also public a TPI, should not they?

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Europe is a big place, and plenty countries are in the EU and other European Countries are not.

Great Britain & Northern Ireland are in Europe & the EU, the Republic of Ireland is also in Europe & the EU, 

so maybe a TPI will be released at different times, even Service Campaign,  just remember Global or World Wide Recalls might not include EU Countries 

as the VW Group are the tail that wags the dog, and Court Actions, Government Agencies are not something that worries VW Group.

 

Some Media coverage of yet another 'minor VW Group product problem' will be good though, as time after time they get away with 

Fundamental Design, Manufacturing, Material or Software failings as they go under the radar and then those out of warranty are left in the lurch.

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  • 2 weeks later...

So things got progressed, my car will have the TPI done next month. The second (good) dealer agreed to do the TPI with no fuss, based on old complaint from december. 

Lets hope that this will be the last visit regarding dsg box. 

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I'm unsure if this is related as I've very little knowledge of DSG gearboxes but today I had my cruise control set at 30, temporary cancelled for a red light, once it changed I accelerated to 27mph then hit resume on the CC and noticed it was in 3rd gear and it hung at 3k RPM till I stepped in and cancelled the CC which then caused it to shift up followed by a horrible clutch smell for a few seconds after. This is the first issue I've had with it and I wondered if it could be one of the clutches not disengaging to allow the other to engage or if its related to the CC. Thanks for any advice with this.

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If you had a burning smell from the clutch it sounds as if one of the clutches was slipping. Be aware the issue discussed here is the clutch slip is mostly present when the engine is cold and the oil under 60c and mostly after the first start of the day or if allowed to stand a long time during the day. If allowed to progress, it may slip at other times. But mine only slips when under quite a load. It doesn't sound as if yours was under much load so it's unlikely to be this issue I wouldn't have thought. More likely to just be a one off glitch with the mechatronics unit software or the unit itself or a glitch with the cruise control. If you notice it continuing to happen then report it to your dealer.

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Engine cold really has nothing to do with the DQ200 slipping.

That would be DQ200 clutches cold, or DSG / MCU oil cold, and really that is not an issue.  Unless someone has some testing showing that it is.

How cold, below freezing, ambient 6*oC or what 'Cold' are we talking. 

 

Do DQ200's in Hotter climates or weather conditions not get clutch slip?

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40 minutes ago, Estate Man said:

If you had a burning smell from the clutch it sounds as if one of the clutches was slipping. Be aware the issue discussed here is the clutch slip is mostly present when the engine is cold and the oil under 60c and mostly after the first start of the day or if allowed to stand a long time during the day. If allowed to progress, it may slip at other times. But mine only slips when under quite a load. It doesn't sound as if yours was under much load so it's unlikely to be this issue I wouldn't have thought. More likely to just be a one off glitch with the mechatronics unit software or the unit itself or a glitch with the cruise control. If you notice it continuing to happen then report it to your dealer.

Yeah I'll keep an eye on it but its the first thing to even slightly go wrong but I'll just wait and see if anything else crops up, thanks for the info.

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^^^ Those will be ones that do slip, or yours.

The ones that do not have a problem are not slipping,  Or the drivers are not aware as there are many drive with the DQ200's before at operating temperature.

Every single driver with a DQ200 actually,  because everyone must be starting for the first time everytime they do first time that day.

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9 hours ago, AwaoffSki said:

Engine cold really has nothing to do with the DQ200 slipping.

That would be DQ200 clutches cold, or DSG / MCU oil cold, and really that is not an issue.  Unless someone has some testing showing that it is.

How cold, below freezing, ambient 6*oC or what 'Cold' are we talking. 

 

Do DQ200's in Hotter climates or weather conditions not get clutch slip?

 

Information from Skoda indicates the problem on nearly all dq200 Fabia 3's with slipping clutch is due to the clutch discs absorbing moisture overnight or after standing for long periods. One of the tpi's indicates this is the case. Its certainly seems to be the case with mine. The new clutches being fitted have a different lining material to cure the issue, along with some other tweaks. I'm aware one or two folks have posted here to say the new fix hasn't worked but looking at the dates of their fix I do wonder if they have actually had the new type of clutch fitted. Skoda seem confident the new fix works, so we'll see. There is a shortage of the new clutches it seems so mine still isn't sorted. It's not a problem, yet! But if allowed to continue the clutch's will no doubt eventually begin to slip when the engine is hot. Currently slippage from the clutch's is rare and does not slip with the engine oil temp above 60c. After the first start of the day when oils are cold it slips if you power it.  Of course, the DSG oil will be lower temp at that period than the engine oil. Engine/gearbox temp is only relavant with regard to how quickly the clutch's 'dry out'. The actual material used is hydroscopic and therefore drying out is not immediate.

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Hygroscopic even.

 

Good that it is just a small number with problems as is often pointed out.

VW Group procurement of components, or Fundamental Design Manufacturing, software, fluids as usual.  

 

So strange that VW / Skoda can build millions of them over so many years, experience failings, have World Wide Recalls. 

Service Campaigns and by 2015 still Ball-s up producing a DSG for pretty low powered engines.

what happened to Vorsprung Durch Technik, was it overtaken by build them cheap and flog lots of them?

Edited by AwaoffSki
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9 hours ago, Estate Man said:

 

Information from Skoda indicates the problem on nearly all dq200 Fabia 3's with slipping clutch is due to the clutch discs absorbing moisture overnight or after standing for long periods. One of the tpi's indicates this is the case. Its certainly seems to be the case with mine. The new clutches being fitted have a different lining material to cure the issue, along with some other tweaks. I'm aware one or two folks have posted here to say the new fix hasn't worked but looking at the dates of their fix I do wonder if they have actually had the new type of clutch fitted. Skoda seem confident the new fix works, so we'll see. There is a shortage of the new clutches it seems so mine still isn't sorted. It's not a problem, yet! But if allowed to continue the clutch's will no doubt eventually begin to slip when the engine is hot. Currently slippage from the clutch's is rare and does not slip with the engine oil temp above 60c. After the first start of the day when oils are cold it slips if you power it.  Of course, the DSG oil will be lower temp at that period than the engine oil. Engine/gearbox temp is only relavant with regard to how quickly the clutch's 'dry out'. The actual material used is hydroscopic and therefore drying out is not immediate.

 

I do not agree with these statements of moisture, because it takes my car only 4h of cooling off between drives to replicate these slips. In this time, the engine and transmission casings are still warm to touch before starting the second trip. There is no way that moisture is absorbed this fast to do such effect on clutches. I am still convinced, that this issue is purely temperature related. Either clutch needs operating temperature or the oil in the mechatronics needs operating temperature, or the tuning of clutch engagement curve mapping does not have correct temperature offset in the SW. There is a noticeable difference between standard and tuned DSG SW, but you can clearly feel that algorithms are the same when DSG is doing its thing. The clutch pressure is for sure increased with tuning also the shift points, which make it a superb transmission to drive, but the problem is, that it still does its thing in the same way. The only thing that tuning did, was to eliminate some circumstances, that made the slips, by mostly changing the shift points. You have to try this to have a full view and feeling. I am able to provoke the DSG to do slipping basically whenever I want now, because I have learned in these 40kkm how to do this.

Also it is very important how you drive this transmission for the person to notice this. I was forced last weak to drive the car like a granny for a trip 40km long. Not once did it slip. Why? Because no high load demand was done, no overtaking, no uphill driving, no dynamic acceleration. The revs were always below 2k, and smooth acceleration.

Maybe this is why most do not notice this? I confess that I drive a bit more dynamic most of time and have quite a lot of high load circumstances on my way to work, but I do not trash the car, since I know I have to live with it for next hopefully 10 years minimum.

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Something to do with the Clutch Plates, Pressures or software then. 2014/15 on.

 

Because 2009-2014 there were DQ200 fitted to engines with 180,ps, 185 ps and from 2015/16 192 ps. 250Nm.

 

There were issues, with the Synthetic Fluid, poor quality clutch packs and failures, MCU's, and Software issues,

But Clutch Slip from cold starting or moisture on clutches were not an issue.

 

?

Are there many with a VW Polo GTI 1.8TSI 192PS DQ200 7 Speed Twin Dry Clutch DSG (250Nm) reporting Clutch Slip issues?

Or did they maybe just have the right clutch packs and software!  Compared to the cars with up to 110ps.

 

Edited by AwaoffSki
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9 hours ago, krigl said:

 

I do not agree with these statements of moisture, because it takes my car only 4h of cooling off between drives to replicate these slips. In this time, the engine and transmission casings are still warm to touch before starting the second trip. There is no way that moisture is absorbed this fast to do such effect on clutches. I am still convinced, that this issue is purely temperature related. Either clutch needs operating temperature or the oil in the mechatronics needs operating temperature, or the tuning of clutch engagement curve mapping does not have correct temperature offset in the SW. There is a noticeable difference between standard and tuned DSG SW, but you can clearly feel that algorithms are the same when DSG is doing its thing. The clutch pressure is for sure increased with tuning also the shift points, which make it a superb transmission to drive, but the problem is, that it still does its thing in the same way. The only thing that tuning did, was to eliminate some circumstances, that made the slips, by mostly changing the shift points. You have to try this to have a full view and feeling. I am able to provoke the DSG to do slipping basically whenever I want now, because I have learned in these 40kkm how to do this.

Also it is very important how you drive this transmission for the person to notice this. I was forced last weak to drive the car like a granny for a trip 40km long. Not once did it slip. Why? Because no high load demand was done, no overtaking, no uphill driving, no dynamic acceleration. The revs were always below 2k, and smooth acceleration.

Maybe this is why most do not notice this? I confess that I drive a bit more dynamic most of time and have quite a lot of high load circumstances on my way to work, but I do not trash the car, since I know I have to live with it for next hopefully 10 years minimum.

 

Hi krigl, yes I think the moisture thing is what starts off the slipping in it's early stages but if not fixed will progress to the sort of issue you have as the miles go on the clock. That's what I'm understanding from Skoda. They say the slipping with mositure in the material of the clutch, glazes the discs causing more slipping, even if the discs are not carrying any moisture. My car currently does not slip it's clutches easily and only ever when it's cold. It must have a good load, either passengers or lots of throttle or both. As soon as the engine temperature hits above 60c it won't slip. So why are some getting this issue and others are not (most are not). I reckon it's down to purely the material that's come in the clutch packs. I know loads of drivers, taxis, delivery people, and boy racers with the DSG Mk2 and many more with the Mk3 of all years and none of them have this slipping issue. My sister has a 2017 Mk3 estate DSG with 14k on the clock and not once has the tranny ever slipped, I've tried it from cold after an overnighter and no slipping. It gets hammered by my sister and her husband too. We have taxis in my town that are Mk3 estates and hatches all with DSG, huge mileages on them and no clutch issues ever. So in my view it's a change in the material being used on some of the clutches that were delivered to the factory for fitment on our cars. But as I said earlier, we'll see how the new clutch packs work out. Skoda are also tweaking other things so they obviously think it may not be the only issue. I can say that when I worked for Nissan, we had batches of faulty clutches with discs that  were hygroscopic on manual boxes. This produced clutch slip and eventually judder and other transmisson issues. Changing the clutch material alone fixed the issues permenantly.

Edited by Estate Man
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^^^ Surely many of those Mk2's with a DQ200 will have had the Service Campaign '34F7' or if from 2013-2015 some will have had '34H5'.

Then those that had neither might be failing sometime in the future. 

 

People seem to have a habit of getting cars serviced and work being done like Service Campaigns then saying they had 'No issues;, 

well maybe because the Preventative Updates were carried out.

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That's a very good point AwaoffSki. Guess we'll see what transpires. I know the Fabia Taxis in my town (Mk2&3), most owned by a friend of mine have all had the service campaign work carried out even though none of them experienced any issues prior to that. Only one guy with a Mk3 estate late 2015 DSG model has worn his clutch pack out after 120,000 + miles of hard taxi work. The car is driven by two drivers and it's on the go day and night. That was just a few weeks ago.  As a side note: that car has performed faultlessly throught the time they have had it. No engine issues, no gearbox issues, nothing to be worried about.

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3 hours ago, Estate Man said:

 

Hi krigl, yes I think the moisture thing is what starts off the slipping in it's early stages but if not fixed will progress to the sort of issue you have as the miles go on the clock. That's what I'm understanding from Skoda. They say the slipping with mositure in the material of the clutch, glazes the discs causing more slipping, even if the discs are not carrying any moisture. My car currently does not slip it's clutches easily and only ever when it's cold. It must have a good load, either passengers or lots of throttle or both. As soon as the engine temperature hits above 60c it won't slip. So why are some getting this issue and others are not (most are not). I reckon it's down to purely the material that's come in the clutch packs. I know loads of drivers, taxis, delivery people, and boy racers with the DSG Mk2 and many more with the Mk3 of all years and none of them have this slipping issue. My sister has a 2017 Mk3 estate DSG with 14k on the clock and not once has the tranny ever slipped, I've tried it from cold after an overnighter and no slipping. It gets hammered by my sister and her husband too. We have taxis in my town that are Mk3 estates and hatches all with DSG, huge mileages on them and no clutch issues ever. So in my view it's a change in the material being used on some of the clutches that were delivered to the factory for fitment on our cars. But as I said earlier, we'll see how the new clutch packs work out. Skoda are also tweaking other things so they obviously think it may not be the only issue. I can say that when I worked for Nissan, we had batches of faulty clutches with discs that  were hygroscopic on manual boxes. This produced clutch slip and eventually judder and other transmisson issues. Changing the clutch material alone fixed the issues permenantly.

So then it is obviously my luck to get the first replacement clutch at 16kkm from the faulty batch again. 

 

No matter, I hope the scheduled change is the last thing i will have to do to my gearbox an that it will be smooth sailing from that point forward. 

Edited by krigl
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I'm sure it will be plain sailing after the new clutch is fitted. Some further information for you though in case you are interested. The following is something I encountered some years ago when testing and developing dry clutches for motorcycle engines (most are wet as you may know). When moisture is absorbed by the clutch discs it doesn't always dry out easily or uniformally. The moisture usually goes down beyond the surface of the disc friction material. In reality this is mostly just fractions of a milimetre but it can have a profound effect on the performance of the clutch friction material. If the clutch slips due to this moisture absorbtion, the surface moisture is 'burned' off quickly due to the slipping action that can create great heat depending on load, speed, and duration of slip. The heat generates some glazing (glazing being a coating of melted resin) trapping moisture just below the surface of the friction material mating face. This in turn causes very much accelerated clutch wear in normal use leading to more slipping because the trapped moisture has to get out somewhere and it does so by expanding and damaging the surface of the clutch discs. That's what causes the vastly increased clutch wear. Surprisingly, the clutch will remain smooth during this type of issue unless it starts to absorb so much moisture the surface of the discs starts to break down, which can happen is some circumstances. Of course, the discs will carry on absorbing moisture during all this time so the cycle just continues until the clutch slips like your one does. I dug out some of my testing notes on this and reminded myself of the process. It happens more than you might think. Most manufacturers have suffered this type of issue at some point especially since the use of none asbestos materials. Interesting I thought!

Edited by Estate Man
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I would report my experience.

 

DQ200 on 1.6 TDI 105cv 250nm, car production 01/2015, purchased it at 17000km without slipping.

 

At 25,000km started to slip in 3 and 5 gear. After several inspections by the dealer and inspectors, even if they were skeptical, at 40000 km he decided to change the clutches. They have also changed gear ratios, this has radically changed the behavior of the gears (the gears change more slowly, the gears change rpm down, it really looks like another type of gearbox - unfortunately worse.

For about 1000 km after the changes to the clutches, everything was fine. So he started again. Now they are at 60000 km and the problem also occurs in 4 marches.

 

Symptoms range from small notches of around 100 rpm a constant, to slips of 300-400 rpm and the car leaping forward, with constant pressure of the gas ... even when a low number of turns in 3 and 5 by pressing the gas firmly but not enough to kick-down ... In the worst conditions (typically uphill) the slips have become vibrations because the clutch is not able to handle the slip. I think that having a manual gearbox and making it slip in this way voluntarily, the change would last only a few months, feel that vibration is a bad feeling, everyone would say "something is not working well, something will break soon". All except the WV group inspectors. And notice that when I say "slip away", it does not go away completely, there are some situations where it happens slightly.

 

I did a lot of tests alone and I noticed that:

- slipping usually goes away after about 50-60km of my typical trip (a bit of wide road and city streets, with some stops)

- I usually go to work at 9:00 ... if I take the car to go home at 18:00, slip is there ..... while if I take the car at 11-12AM the slide is less evident

- the slippage is heavier in winter, the amount of km needed to stop is greater in winter

- slippage also occurs in tiptronic mode (manual)

- If I voluntarily play in tiptronic mode making a large number of unnecessary gear changes, the slipping stops before 50-60km needed normally

 

In my case it seems definitely something related to temperature, or at least something in which temperature has a primary role in determining the bad behavior of something else.

No relationship with the engine oil or the water temperature, they become hot after a few minutes even in winter, but the sliding continues for an increasing number of kilometers.

 

It's really frustrating.

 

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What are Skoda saying about your DQ200.

If the car was build in January 2015 is your DSG one of the ones built 2013-2015 that require the Service Campaign started 2016 and the software update?

Was this carried out?

 

Are you not pressing them to replace the complete gearbox?

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7 minutes ago, AwaoffSki said:

What are Skoda saying about your DQ200.

If the car was build in January 2015 is your DSG one of the ones built 2013-2015 that require the Service Campaign started 2016 and the software update?

Was this carried out?

 

Are you not pressing them to replace the complete gearbox?

Sorry, I forgot to say I own a Seat and not a Skoda, but reading here and in other forums slipping problems are more or less the same...

When they replaced clutches they said me they mounted last type of clutches with the last software updates, I wrote official letters to the support (my car has also extended warranty until march 2019) but they say the behavior is normal, it works into "operating ranges"... the last possibility for me is to go to a lawyer, but it will cost me a lot of money...

Edited by kappa85
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