EV real world range and cost to charge

[domhnall]

52 minutes ago, roottoot said:

Close one this morning nearly running out of charge.  Full battery last night and 150 range showing.  Did 80 miles and getting 3.3 miles to 3.1 miles driving in fog.  Stopped for 30 minutes for a charge and got 16 kWh in.  Enough usually for the next 80 miles I do. That leaves enough to charge later even when colder than this morning.     Not today.  Peeing down, fog and mist.  I was down to 14 mile range with 20 miles still to go so diverted to a route where I could get on 7 kW charger if needed and went 10 mile in ECO to a single Rapid charger.   A Muppet had a Hyundai plugged in but charger not charging or cable locked 🔒 in 50 minutes ago.   So took the cable and managed to get a good quick charge to 90%.    Just letting another driver starting to charge.  The charger 6 miles further on is out of order and the one 20 miles further on again has also been off for weeks.  This is on the route to and from the Ferries to Northern Ireland.      Scotland,s Government need to get a grip.     I know the chargers and routes but visitors can easily get caught out badly.  

 

 

what has it got to do with the Government? They don't have the power to order the owners to do anythign with their chargers which (as I suspect you know very well) belong to a mix of private businesses and local authorities. 

SHould have got a Skoda, still averaging 4 m /kWh

 

 

Edited 5 November, 2022 by domhnall
typo

[Ootohere]

It has everything to do with the government in Scotland and Jenny Gilruth MSO the minister for transport Scotland and her and Transport Scotland sucking up the nonsense from Swarco who are administering Charge Place Scotland and earning very well out of that.   Being the contractor for CPS so us, then SWARCO having maintenance contracts with many of the 32 local  authorities.  Swarco owning e-Volt and supplying new chargers.  All this with Grants coming from Tax payers money. That is to councils and these private Charger owners, often public organisations that are tax payer funded.  Actual commercial and private owed ones usually have better maintenance contracts.   Swarco are sitting with a monopoly and them and CPS are making out there are only 2% of public chargers under the CPS admin faulty.   I got the car I could afford from Motability and which was comfortable and it is doing just what it does as far as efficiency with the tyres it has on.  As it was I did not want a bigger car even if it did go further per kWh. There were none available anyway that I could afford.   I do want an EV van or estate car next for leisure use when I do change it.      It is good that your Skoda running about for business and personal use can go further between chargings using commercial chargers and CPS ones, so 58 kW usable x 4 and charging needed about every 200 miles when below average being achieved.   That has nothing really to do with the love in with the Scottish Government and SWARCO and before that BP and SWARCO.    Crap charger maintenance , it, admin etc and 50 million quid spent already and much more being spent and poor performance from contractors is the issue.  

 

........

When all is working as it should it can be lovely.

Many pull up and see chargers showing RED and do not bother doing a 'reset' or calling in and seeing if out of action or bothering to report them even though they are sitting there passing the time and lucky enough to be getting a charge. 

Edited 5 November, 2022 by roottoot

[Lady Elanore]

We had a cluster flump at work yesterday as the senior technical manager was nearly 4 hours on site (we aren't allowed access to work at heights until he signs us off - so it was a long day). The reason? He drove up from South London to the North West  (England) and had to charge up on route. His normal stop apparently had no functioning or free chargers and so he took the decision to wait it out until a functioning one became free. It's a company car, but as he said, he wouldn't have one 'in our job' if he had a choice. The Government want us to go battery-electric (please rethink Hydrogen and zero emissions fuels guys!), but they definitely need to find a way to get the existing chargers to a higher operational number and get new charge points built fast. Many companies and people are doing exactly what the Government wants in this regard, so they need support. 

 

On a separate note, I am continually surprised at the number of non-operational chargers I see and hear, reported. What is it that fails in these devices. After all, petrol fuel pumps are pretty reliable, most of the on-site power demands my industry needs are reliable catered for by mobile generators and 3 phase supplies. It very rarely doesn't work. The electricity in my house seems pretty dependable, as do the outlets and electronic devices plugged into them. So what is it with charge points? DO people crash into them while reversing? Have they been built to a cost and fitted in a rush by half trained engineers? Are they vandalised?

[KenONeill]

3 hours ago, Lady Elanore said:

the number of non-operational chargers I see and hear, reported. What is it that fails in these devices. After all, petrol fuel pumps are pretty reliable,

By and large, there is someone on-site at a petrol station (owner or manager) who can do basic maintenance and call for a regional support engineer at least 7 hours up to 14 hours a day. Perhaps if Scalex EV charging stations had the same ratio of maintenance staff to vehicle cables; oh wait, that would cost money, which would be extracted from the tax evaders...

[BJM]

That doesn’t answer the question though.

Fundamentally these are presumably just battery chargers with digital timers and an internet connection all monitored / controlled by an ATM (without the mechanical cash handling equipment)

All of this is long established, solid state technology. No moving parts, no lubrication, wear etc.

Although the “pumps” are the size of a petrol pump this presumably is purely for familiarity, as witnessed by the ability to fit a working charger into a pipe the size of a lamppost.

 

So, why are you regulars constantly reporting broken equipment.

[Breezy_Pete]

10 hours ago, Lady Elanore said:

Have they been built to a cost and fitted in a rush by half trained engineers?

This, I expect; but fitted by fitters, not engineers.

[Ootohere]

What fails in Scotland with the chargers is the SIM and card reader and remote staring.   Communications approving the Card we used to pay £20 a year for and which you can buy for a one off £10.   Then the CPS app and map can have lost communication with chargers.   The charger might be working, you are at it, you start it with your card even though the app shows unavailable.   You are sitting like me reporting to SWARCO / CPS ths faults at that charger or the others which are showing occupied while not, or available while occupied.   If I am hanging about and chargers are showing RED as out of service I push or pull the stop button. Depends on the type of charger.  Pull out or push in the 20 seconds waiting for a reset.  Or on newer ones I tap my card, press reset and quite often the charger is ok.   Often all that happened is the last person charging had no card, maybe the app never started the charger.  They called CPS and maybe within minutes or maybe 40 minutes got through and got a remote start..  then after charging they could not stop the charger so pressed emergency stop. Ot at free chargers a friendly person with a card started the charger for them but left while they were still charging.      I am just off to see if the charger I reported 2 weeks ago is fixed.   Previously it was out of order waiting for a cable for 3 months.  Only me posted on ZapMap and plugshare the state of play. Every week I messaged CPS / SWARCO and everytime I was told a site visit was due that week.   It was an AC cable.  Readily available for that charger.   

 

 

 

 

Edited 6 November, 2022 by roottoot

[Ootohere]

Lots of my charging now at CPS chargers where you have to pay is not charged to my account as their system is crap which saves me money.  I prefer to use the card, hardly ever use the App as mobile phone signals can be crap. Turned down sometimes if a crash nearby.  Dead slow and stop in rural areas.  Newer machines with tap and pay are often much easier to get started and at like Edinburgh airport I just do that.  No point trying the CPS card or app and 5 chargers or phoning if you just plug in, tap and it starts or not, if not move to the next one repeat.  When 2 or 3 are out of order and as you try 1 someone gets the other working and you are stuffed and then need to try calling CPS who tell you they are all working 

 

[Ootohere]

So the single CCS charger is still out of service at Girvan Harbour 2 weeks on.  I am using the AC on the side that people think is out of order because of the blank screen and out of service lights.     Then the 7kw charges next to it are out of service.  One has a red light and one green.  So I called CPS.  Call answered quickly.    The CCS charger needs a part.  Due a site visit 25th November.     Actually needs replaced.  Screen had been almost unreadable for 2 years.  Well past sell by / use by date.      South Ayrshire council need to pay for that though.   Then the call handler checked the 7kW chargers.   One off, due maintenance today.  She tells me it is cold here.  It is 12•oC and sunny.  Not cold.  She tells me A post has limited power.   Tell me something new, it has been since installed.  

 

[Lady Elanore]

4 hours ago, roottoot said:

What fails in Scotland with the chargers is the SIM and card reader and remote staring.   Communications approving the Card we used to pay £20 a year for and which you can buy for a one off £10.   Then the CPS app and map can have lost communication with chargers.   The charger might be working, you are at it, you start it with your card even though the app shows unavailable.   You are sitting like me reporting to SWARCO / CPS ths faults at that charger or the others which are showing occupied while not, or available while occupied.   If I am hanging about and chargers are showing RED as out of service I push or pull the stop button. Depends on the type of charger.  Pull out or push in the 20 seconds waiting for a reset.  Or on newer ones I tap my card, press reset and quite often the charger is ok.   Often all that happened is the last person charging had no card, maybe the app never started the charger.  They called CPS and maybe within minutes or maybe 40 minutes got through and got a remote start..  then after charging they could not stop the charger so pressed emergency stop. Ot at free chargers a friendly person with a card started the charger for them but left while they were still charging.      I am just off to see if the charger I reported 2 weeks ago is fixed.   Previously it was out of order waiting for a cable for 3 months.  Only me posted on ZapMap and plugshare the state of play. Every week I messaged CPS / SWARCO and everytime I was told a site visit was due that week.   It was an AC cable.  Readily available for that charger.   

 

 

 

 

 

For something that is mainly a solid state thing, I was surprised at the sheer numbers of failures, but I suppose when you think that it might be the "handshake" somewhere in the system that is at fault, then that doesn't surprise me so much. The gear I use at work, constantly fails at handshaking (don't get me started on the Cisco switchers they have us rig - "switch them off then on again!")  and even my home entertainment 'exchange' (it looks like  a GPO exchange from the 50s) fails at its handshakes on a daily basis. Still, these failures of charge points shouldn't be as permanent and commonplace as they seem. 

[Ootohere]

Vandalism is often blamed.  Absolute crap when you know the location and know it is the unit that allows the charged head to fall on the ground and get run over.   Or the areas mobile phone reception is pathetic.      Charge place Scotland showing locations in the wrong location for a year even though SWARCO do the maintenance and even charged their vehicles there is inexcusable.   As is employees arriving, charging their vehicles at chargers showing out of order then driving off leaving them out of order.    I have the pictures, the proof, the registration numbers.   I have those that did it and that trolled me online on users sights details and massages saved.  deleting accounts was a waste of time, just like those employees were. People are human.  Some are lazy barstewards with an agenda.  

 

http://gov.scot/publications/foi-202100253412

 

Edited 6 November, 2022 by roottoot

[lol-lol]

45 minutes ago, roottoot said:

Vandalism is often blamed.  Absolute crap when you know the location and know it is the unit that allows the charged head to fall on the ground and get run over.   Or the areas mobile phone reception is pathetic.      Charge place Scotland showing locations in the wrong location for a year even though SWARCO do the maintenance and even charged their vehicles there is inexcusable.   As is employees arriving, charging their vehicles at chargers showing out of order then driving off leaving them out of order.    I have the pictures, the proof, the registration numbers.   I have those that did it and that trolled me online on users sights details and massages saved.  deleting accounts was a waste of time, just like those employees were. People are human.  Some are lazy barstewards with an agenda.  

 

http://gov.scot/publications/foi-202100253412

 

 

I know a friend who has broken two of the common but clearly not very strong Rolec.

The cable locking pins had not been serviced in many a year, so power was switched off at release fired from the car end but now cable released.

Tug of War ensued, charge post lost twice, had its facias pulled off.   

I expect there is still much to do to improve robustness of their designs.

 

[wyx087]

As said, it's the fact they are all relatively early designs (compared to petrol pumps) that is the problem. I bet we've all had problematic fuel stop mechanisms before, but I feel in the late 2010's, they seems to have became really reliable..... how long has fuel pumps been around? Engineering is an iterative process, things can only improve when good companies learn from all the failure data.

 

There's also the problem of skilled labourers. I remember there was talk that during early days, back in 2017, the whole of UK's Ecotricity Electric Highway charger (equipment funded by Nissan-Renault, maintained by Ecotricity paying France contractors) were done by 2 French blocks going up and down the country...... once every few month!

 

Finally, grid supply may also be slowing down the rollout. Last 2 weeks I've been driving past a Shell forecourt (A1 Borehamwood roundabout), there's 6 brand new chargers installed but not turned on. But in doing so, they've removed the previously working single rapid charger. Makes me wonder, which petrol station manages their logistics by ripping out old pumps, put in a new set of pumps and wait weeks before installing the tank and fill with petrol?

 

The handshake should be part of a standard, the CCS standard. But we all know how tiny differences in implementation could create problems. I've previously read reports of new cars not able to charge on certain chargers until they were patched. Here had even been report of recently opened up Tesla supercharger bricking Honda E's. Even report of Ford car/truck and VW cars having problems on their own co-funded Electrify-America network. My solution around this is to go first-party for best reliability, buy their cars and use their chargers.

[wyx087]

Did my first long trip with my Tesla Model Y long range yesterday, in ~12c and light to heavy rain, mostly motorway drive. Home to Warwick Castle, then to fireworks, finally back home very wet. Driving around 70mph most of the time, autopilot the whole way. Interior constant 21c, heated stuff, etc, a few minutes of pre-conditioning while plugged in, less than 0.8 kWh taken from the wall. Started with 100%.

 

Total stat from the car "since last charge": 206 miles, 57 kWh used for driving, 276 Wh/mi (3.62 mi/kWh). Had sentry mode turned on when not driving (~7 hours), many recordings at both busy car parks. Got home with 21%.

 

"Real world" range in this instance: >260 miles. 206 miles actually used less than 79%, because sentry mode when parked also used up a few percent.

Total cost to charge: ~£5 thanks to charging on 7.5p/kWh off-peak charging.

Next year after my fix with Octopus Go ends, it will probably be ~£6.30 using 10p/kWh on Intelligent Octopus. Or ~£7.56 on current 12p/kWh Octopus Go prices.

 

 

This is the best feature with Tesla's: trip prediction. It takes everything into account: weather, elevation, and probably typical Tesla drive style 🤣.  Just make sure predicted arrival percentage is above what you need, you are golden.

This is the drive from Warwick Castle to Borehamwood. First sections where I was neck and neck with prediction was when I was catching up to friend's car on the motorway. Then, thanks to AP following a friend's car at around 70mph and a slow section on M25, I beat its estimate consumption by just under 10% (3.7% better than 38% consumed).

 

 

I know 200 miles is pale in comparison to some people's actual need for their day-job. But for our family day-out, total 2 hours in the car per leg is about the most we can manage. Any longer we'll be thinking of staying the night. Original plan was staying the night in Birmingham and go to Drayton Manor park on Sunday. But plan changed.

 

Next on the list is either British Motor museum or Silverstone interactive centre.

[Luckypants]

I've just done a weekend away on almost a single charge. A trip to Anglesey (80 miles), motoring about the island for three days and the trip home through Snowdonia this time. Total was 320-ish miles. Left home at 100% with 265 miles showing on the GOM, predicted range increased slightly on the way over. I got a 15 minute top up at a 50kW Podpoint rapid on Saturday afternoon when it was clear I didn't have the range to get home. Arrived home with 13% which included running the air-con for the dogs while parked (Sunday was 20C!) so was able to go get a takeaway with no drama. Cost of home charging for this was £16.33 and the rapid charge was £6.34 (15.86 kWh) for a total of £22.67 for 320 miles, so 7.08p per mile on a little trip out. My Karoq would have cost about £59.20 for the same trip using the cheapest diesel I saw as a guide (£1.85/litre).

An example of my real world range in a loaded car and the cost to charge at today's prices.

[wyx087]

Nice. Good efficiency as well by the looks of it. Get on EV tariffs and it'll be even cheaper! 

 

Goes to show once range of these cars are above ~200 miles real world range, it's easy and zero hassle for trips. The bigger the range, the cheaper odd-trips will be. 

[Luckypants]

11 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Nice. Good efficiency as well by the looks of it. Get on EV tariffs and it'll be even cheaper!

I think I was around 3.4 miles/kWh. Friday was very windy which cost a bit, but then the weather turned warm and still to compensate. I've no doubt moaned about the smart meter situation in rural Wales on this thread elsewhere but I cannot get one so an EV tariff is not available to me. I do have a good (compared to current rates) fixed price until September though.

Edited 15 November, 2022 by Luckypants

[wyx087]

I drove 7.5 miles today, to GP appointment to check my eye and a few minutes stop at Tesco to make an appointment. Then another trip to Tesco for the optician, 20min in there. Charged up at 7 kW first time and 11 kW second time, for free!  Got home with exactly same percentage as I begin with. So today's local journey travel was free, thanks Tesco./Podpoint 

 

With a 22 kW car, school runs can be completely free just by popping into the shop for 15min every day. 

 

 

Though when I was leaving, a Leaf owner asked if I was leaving and she wanted to get on the 22 kW........ I pointed out I don't think Leaf can max out 22 kW, I think it can only do 7 kW. To my surprise she replied "oh thanks, that's good info". EV ownership education has a long way to go. 

 

Edited 23 November, 2022 by wyx087

[lol-lol]

19 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

I drove 7.5 miles today, to GP appointment to check my eye and a few minutes stop at Tesco to make an appointment. Then another trip to Tesco for the optician, 20min in there. Charged up at 7 kW first time and 11 kW second time, for free!  Got home with exactly same percentage as I begin with. So today's local journey travel was free, thanks Tesco./Podpoint 

 

With a 22 kW car, school runs can be completely free just by popping into the shop for 15min every day. 

 

 

Though when I was leaving, a Leaf owner asked if I was leaving and she wanted to get on the 22 kW........ I pointed out I don't think Leaf can max out 22 kW, I think it can only do 7 kW. To my surprise she replied "oh thanks, that's good info". EV ownership education has a long way to go. 

 

 

Should have got a Zoe if she wanted 22 kW charging.

 

I have notice my front tyres are a good half worn with only 9k miles on them and I usually change at 3mm tread depth so I reckon this will only last another 3k or so miles.

 

Heavy footed these EVs.

 

[Luckypants]

Tesla have lowered their prices and is now around 50p / kWh for non-Tesla cars. Handy if one is on route for you as cheaper than most mainstream networks. 

[wyx087]

3 hours ago, Luckypants said:

Tesla have lowered their prices and is now around 50p / kWh for non-Tesla cars. Handy if one is on route for you as cheaper than most mainstream networks. 

You sure that's across all time slots? Presumably this is with the subscription?

 

Last time I checked on the in-car screen, it was 50p/kWh other times, 66p/kWh peak time 4-8pm.

 

I wonder how are they achieving this price when business rates are still quite high.

[Luckypants]

Off peak, no subscription. 

Edited 23 November, 2022 by Luckypants

[wyx087]

Had a quick check. Tesla seems to have dropped pricing significantly, depending on location. Some sites are 52p/67p, some are 35p/44p. All the open to non-Tesla ones are on cheaper tariff. 
 

[Luckypants]

2 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

All the open to non-Tesla ones are on cheaper tariff. 

Yes and if you have a subscription then the price is the same as for Tesla owners. My closest SC happens to be one of the ones open to other vehicles and is 49p off peak and 62p peak, (36p and 46p with subs), making it the cheapest and fastest HPC in the area. The peak hours are quite reasonable times too.

[Ootohere]

Yesterday set off with a Full Battery Charged free at CPS & Tesco Podpoint Chargers.

Then 30 mins charge @ 35 pence a kWh for £5.32

& 10 minutes for £2.22,

then 79 minutes on a 7 kW charger cost £2.04.

 

Next was 18 mins on a 7 kWh charger free waiting to get on a 50 kW for 60 minutes.

Then after midnight 38 minutes on a 50 kW at no cost and then home with 38% left in battery.

 

Total miles morning til 2.30 AM this morning was 390 miles for £9.58. 

 

  Much cheapness is what floats my boat. 

 

Just over 3 miles per kWh in peeing rain and temps between 5-8*oC almost every mile. 

Plugging in and unlugging done in the rain apart from at 00.30 AM, and a toilet near only at the first charging session. 

 

 

 

Edited 24 November, 2022 by toot