Start stop and DSG

[Changeman]

My concern is with economy. 

OK, so after 7 seconds stopped it apparently delivers some savings, but:

1. What about at night when headlights are pulling power from the battery which has to be replaced.

2. Ditto wipers when raining

3. Battery life reduced due to massive number of starts and I realise it is a bigger battery, but that is just extra cost.

4. Starter motor life reduced. That's a big replacement expense.

Or am unduly concerned?

[MarkyG82]

The components are designed with S/S in mind so 'shouldn't' need to worry.  However, anything with moving parts under these conditions are likely to wear out and a starter that is designed for S/S will wear more slowly if S/S is disabled surely?

[gRoberts]

42 minutes ago, Changeman said:

My concern is with economy. 

OK, so after 7 seconds stopped it apparently delivers some savings, but:

1. What about at night when headlights are pulling power from the battery which has to be replaced.

2. Ditto wipers when raining

3. Battery life reduced due to massive number of starts and I realise it is a bigger battery, but that is just extra cost.

4. Starter motor life reduced. That's a big replacement expense.

Or am unduly concerned?

 

As @MarkyG82 suggests, these components are designed to be used with Start/Stop.

 

The engine will refuse to stop or automatically start, should a pull on the battery last long enough, or have enough current to potentially damage the battery or any of the other components.

[Scotty72]

25 minutes ago, gRoberts said:

 

As @MarkyG82 suggests, these components are designed to be used with Start/Stop.

 

The engine will refuse to stop or automatically start, should a pull on the battery last long enough, or have enough current to potentially damage the battery or any of the other components.

Again can only agree all the electrical components are beefed up to cope with stop/start from that I infer bigger larger Ah batteries.. Octavia has a chuffing huge one from looking under the bonnet.

My S/S system has already complained on an infotainment popup message at the top of the screen to me Sat morning last weekend it was disabling itself due to electrical power requirements  I put that down to my mrs doing lots of small local journeys with the car and it simply hadn't run enough to keep the battery topped up enough initially.

 

Edit This website was interesting when I was looking 

http://whatbattery.co.uk/skoda-octavia-iii-from-2013-batteries/

 

AGM and 70Ah for all Octavia's with Stop/Start. Likely to be indentical to all VW Group cars with same engines.

Edited 22 November, 2018 by Scotty72

[Plantman]

6 hours ago, Plantman said:

 

This is interesting. I've not actually tried that. Assumed as soon as you lift you foot from the brake it restarts the car

I know it doesn't in Park but I will try this later in Neutral.

 

 

 

This is a bit of a mixed bag for me. When I shift to neutral but still hold the brake down as normal it will still stop the engine.

 

If I am very light with the brake I can shift to neutral and then let off the brake and the engine will stay on.  When I shift to D, unless I keep a very light pressure on the brake the car will stop the engine.

So this can be a pain because the engine will switch off as I've got to D then when I let off the brake it realises I need to go and has to start again,

 

So for me, it's probably easier to just disable the Start/Stop with the button in the first instance.

 

 

[Changeman]

I believe it i may be possible to disable permanently the start stop using OBDeleven.

If so, the small cost would be worth it. 

[KevC_Derby]

If you’re having to faff around with Neutral, Park, Brake Pedal feathering then it’s clearly not for for purpose.

Manual cars with the restart on clutch engagement is seamless and works as designed. VAG Group Stop/Start with DSG isn’t.

 

Just Switch It Off each time with the button or disable with a tool.

[gRoberts]

4 minutes ago, KevC_Derby said:

If you’re having to faff around with Neutral, Park, Brake Pedal feathering then it’s clearly not for for purpose.

Manual cars with the restart on clutch engagement is seamless and works as designed. VAG Group Stop/Start with DSG isn’t.

 

Just Switch It Off each time with the button or disable with a tool.

 

Yes, but no. The idea is, most people who drive an automatic, will simply stop with their foot on the brake and leave it there until they are ready to pull away. 

 

Unfortunately, like me, some people don't like to sit on the brake but I don't want to disable Stop/Start either. Shifting into neutral, is no different than shifting into neutral in a manual, apart from the obvious lack of pedal etc. 

 

As a manual driver who is going to automatic soon, I am going to struggle for a short period, especially since I tend to shift into neutral before I've stopped, which I don't think I can do in an automatic?

[Ootohere]

^^^ 

Now with DSG's all kind of things can be done, or done to you.   'Coasting Function',  or coasting to a halt and you are out of gear, or engine cuts out etc.

Auto Hold as you stop and press the brake hard enough or not. 

It is a wonderful world of learning from one DSG to another.

 

 

 

Edited 22 November, 2018 by Offski

[Stonker]

3 minutes ago, gRoberts said:

 

 

As a manual driver who is going to automatic soon, I am going to struggle for a short period, especially since I tend to shift into neutral before I've stopped, which I don't think I can do in an automatic?

 

You'll soon get used to it, before you know it you'll be wishing you'd made the switch sooner. Just take your time gerrin used to it and I guarantee it'll be second nature in no time at all. 

[gRoberts]

10 minutes ago, Offski said:

^^^ 

Now with DSG's all kind of things can be done, or done to you.   'Coasting Function',  or coasting to a halt and you are out of gear, or engine cuts out etc.

Auto Hold as you stop and press the brake hard enough or not. 

It is a wonderful world of learning from one DSG to another.

 

 

 

 

I thought all this was only specific to certain engines/implementations, or is all DSG equipped (i.e. coasting)

[Ootohere]

Specific engines, evolving all the time.  It is a wonderful world of discovery as you get in different VW Group cars just what they can do or do until you find out to make them do what you want them too.

Not that you always can be sure they will.....

[Plantman]

17 hours ago, gRoberts said:

 

Yes, but no. The idea is, most people who drive an automatic, will simply stop with their foot on the brake and leave it there until they are ready to pull away. 

 

Unfortunately, like me, some people don't like to sit on the brake but I don't want to disable Stop/Start either. Shifting into neutral, is no different than shifting into neutral in a manual, apart from the obvious lack of pedal etc. 

 

As a manual driver who is going to automatic soon, I am going to struggle for a short period, especially since I tend to shift into neutral before I've stopped, which I don't think I can do in an automatic?

 

Yes you can shift to neutral before you have come to a stop on the DSG. At least in my 2014 DQ200 dry box.

There isn't a benefit to doing that though since it does change down the gears to aid in engine braking till you are at a slow speed and I find that the DSG disengages the clutches anyway, coasting to a stop.

 

As you I also would prefer to keep Stop/Start enabled so that I can choose when to use it.  

 

[imikk3]

20 hours ago, Plantman said:

 

This is a bit of a mixed bag for me. When I shift to neutral but still hold the brake down as normal it will still stop the engine.

 

If I am very light with the brake I can shift to neutral and then let off the brake and the engine will stay on.  When I shift to D, unless I keep a very light pressure on the brake the car will stop the engine.

So this can be a pain because the engine will switch off as I've got to D then when I let off the brake it realises I need to go and has to start again,

 

So for me, it's probably easier to just disable the Start/Stop with the button in the first instance.

 

 

Sometimes when I stop at the traffic lights I put it in Neutral after the engine stops then let off the brake pedal and wait until I have to leave then brake on - shift in - go away

[Plantman]

On 23/11/2018 at 14:57, imikk3 said:

Sometimes when I stop at the traffic lights I put it in Neutral after the engine stops then let off the brake pedal and wait until I have to leave then brake on - shift in - go away

 

This doesn't work on mine. No matter what gear,  apart from Park, as soon as I lift the brake pedal it will start the engine. 

 

 

[Scotty72]

17 hours ago, Plantman said:

 

This doesn't work on mine. No matter what gear,  apart from Park, as soon as I lift the brake pedal it will start the engine. 

 

 

The neutral trick works on mine I tested it over the weekend. It does require a new set of co-ordination to be ready to go again.

 

My overall feeling with stop/start is that its frankly way to aggressive - it spends more time stopping and restarting the engine at times where your at a busy roundabout/junction - when you need to be ready to go. I've also had the situation where I've had it at point then say its not going to do it due to power demands the car.. yes you stopped and restarted the engine so many times you've killed the battery yourself lol

I think what I'd ideally like is a time delay of 15-20 seconds before it kicks in - sure sticking it in park should always auto stop the engine but had it refuse to do that over the weekend lol My car is used for a lot of small local journeys and then the odd longer run as its not a commuter. 

[Ootohere]

^^^ If you are not pressing the 'OFF' for Stop / Start it will be ''Not doing Stop / Start' soon enough as Winter comes in and Ambient Temps are low enough.

The Interior Temp is set high enough different from the Ambient temp or just the interior at the time, or the Load required for Heated Mirrors, Seats, Rear or Front Screen, Radio and lights are high enough and the battery drain is enough and the journeys are short.

[Scotty72]

36 minutes ago, Offski said:

^^^ If you are not pressing the 'OFF' for Stop / Start it will be ''Not doing Stop / Start' soon enough as Winter comes in and Ambient Temps are low enough.

The Interior Temp is set high enough different from the Ambient temp or just the interior at the time, or the Load required for Heated Mirrors, Seats, Rear or Front Screen, Radio and lights are high enough and the battery drain is enough and the journeys are short.

Yer its kinda started that already. I'll be exploring the 'OFF' setting next for myself. It refused to auto stop the engine in park last night for the first time, yesterday was all small short local journeys

[ords]

On 22/11/2018 at 19:28, gRoberts said:

 

Yes, but no. The idea is, most people who drive an automatic, will simply stop with their foot on the brake and leave it there until they are ready to pull away. 

 

Unfortunately, like me, some people don't like to sit on the brake but I don't want to disable Stop/Start either. Shifting into neutral, is no different than shifting into neutral in a manual, apart from the obvious lack of pedal etc. 

 

As a manual driver who is going to automatic soon, I am going to struggle for a short period, especially since I tend to shift into neutral before I've stopped, which I don't think I can do in an automatic?

You can shift to neutral whilst moving, but how good for the box that is I don't know. Then you've got to use the handbrake to hold the car. I just use the s/s  as intended.

[ords]

22 hours ago, Plantman said:

 

This doesn't work on mine. No matter what gear,  apart from Park, as soon as I lift the brake pedal it will start the engine. 

 

 

Or move the steering wheel

[Ootohere]

?

Why is anyone speaking about going into 'N' with a DSG while still moving or coasting to a halt?

 

You either have a DSG with Coasting Function or not, if you have and it is enabled then job done, the Shifter stays in 'D' and you coast, 

& with some Engines / cars it is Coasting with the Engine running and with others or in some situations the engine stops and you coast to a halt.

Sometime putting the brake at the stop starts the engine, other cars or times it might not. 

Edited 26 November, 2018 by Offski

[Joebloggs67]

In my previous manual cars if car lost traction on snow or ice disengaging the clutch and removing drive from the wheels was usually enough for the car to straighten it’s self out, it would be nice to know if this was a possible with the dsg.

 

[Ootohere]

ESP & ABS, and TC / ASR and the you can switch of TC/ ASR but not the ESP.

traction is the tyres regaining grip and that is usually with drive to the wheels. You steer into skids unless you are not.

 

The DSG is no problem in Snow, Ice, wet or cold, just fit the right tyres and use the accelerator correctly, and the DSG is an Automated Manual so you can change gear and putting the shifter from D back to S can help decelerating without touch brakes or just manually down shift.

[imikk3]

1 hour ago, Offski said:

?

Why is anyone speaking about going into 'N' with a DSG while still moving or coasting to a halt?

 

You either have a DSG with Coasting Function or not, if you have and it is enabled then job done, the Shifter stays in 'D' and you coast, 

& with some Engines / cars it is Coasting with the Engine running and with others or in some situations the engine stops and you coast to a halt.

Sometime putting the brake at the stop starts the engine, other cars or times it might not. 

Yes in ECO mode you can but coasting doesn`t work below 10mph or as soon as you touch the brake pedal (on mine doesn`t) but it would be nice to coast to  a halt while you applying the brakes. If I just slightly touck the brake pedal I can manage to keep the car coasting but it`s hard work though 

I heard putting an automatic gearbox into Neutral while the car still moving is a bad idea. I have no clue what damage could cause and I don`t want to know. But it raise a question in me to say, if your car coasting in ECO mode, is it not the same as when you move the selector in Neutral and let the car roll?

[Ootohere]

^^^^ Depends which car and engine you have.  They are not all the same.

 

'Coasting function' disengages drive so the difference from going into 'Neutral' is the Engineers designed it with Software Engineers to do what they do and that has been evolving over the past years from when there was no 'Coasting Function'.

There were DSG that were 'Coasting' as VW were trying out the tech, and some drivers were aware but the tech was not 'Official' yet.

VW had it there with Defeat Devices in the ECU's for 'Cheating EU' or USA Testing....

 

PS

A DSG is not an automatic gearbox even though there are 2 pedals, it is an Automated Manual  and a Wet Clutch & Dry Twin Clutch are different again.

Still Automated Manuals though.

Edited 26 November, 2018 by Offski