Solar panels plus battery storage - anyone have that?

[fabdavrav]

4 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

Does not help the "reducing CO2" agenda.  These "solar generators" have Photovoltaic input and solar panels are getting cheaper and better year on year and work on a winters day as long as their is some sunlight but it obtaining electrical power when there is no sun or perhaps even wind.   Storing the nuclear and renewable hydro energy for when one needs it in the middle of the night.  Linking the whole world up to a worldwide electrical grid so there is always somewhere generating hydro, solar or wind power with nuclear making up the difference to even that can be phased out.

 

It is happen gradually.  UK has just got plugged in to a 1.4 GW connector to Norway which is helping the UK go carbon neutral just a shame the UK France 2 GW connector went down for a while though at least 1 GW is working currently.

https://grid.iamkate.com/

 

Pace of all this technology is moving along pretty well and if distributors and users pick it up then maybe the extreme weather to come may kill a few less million people.      

 

Sorry not going to happen as you think....The wind farms up here are being paid £££ to shut off when windy as the grid cannot cope.....not only that but the grid cannot cope with trying to transport it down south & the main grid company has stated the cost of upgrading the grid is huge & cannot do it...So the ideal of shunting huge amounts of power from where its produced to the big cities is out the window...unless the Gov steps in & pays for it...If a battery storage unit is built then thats fine, but again its not going down south...

 

4 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

Perhaps home gas boilers, and the circulation pump, should have alternative power feeds to their 240v ie a 12volt for the pump and 12 / 5 volt for the boiler electrical circuitry ? 

 

On the news it was saying Ammonia was a better way to transport Hydrogen and presumably then strip the nitrogen when one wants to use the hydrogen as fuel. 

Much of the technology is already here or close to commercial scaling so it sounds hopeful we can have both carbonless fuel which still has a burning process with those benefits we know of.

     

 

 

Doubt it...230V is required for the ignitors, gas solenoid valve, main circulating pump, diverter valve ...all these are better as 230v.....the controls eg timer PCB when its built in is 12V from what I remember (I'd have to double check later)...Water pumps require torque, so at 230V its less A compared to 12V for the same power (W)

Edited 29 November, 2021 by fabdavrav
clarity

[AnnoyingPentium]

7 hours ago, @Lee said:

Maybe a tad OT but has anyone considered building their own generator? I was mulling over the idea of using an old 1.9  SDi as they're bomb proof and easy to maintain. 

 

 

Get a TDI and you can power your neighbour's house too.

 

But seriously, as Lol-Lol said, it would go against all of the climate activism and that.

[fabdavrav]

1 minute ago, roottoot said:

Plenty windblown timber about for those with a chainsaw or someone with a vehicle with fuel to get wood to them or maybe a horse and cart / reindeer & sleigh and that still have a fireplace and chimney.

 

Lang may there lum reek. 

 

I know....just the eco/green lot want to eventually ban wood burning stoves as they pollute...

[lol-lol]

7 minutes ago, fabdavrav said:

 

I know....just the eco/green lot want to eventually ban wood burning stoves as they pollute...

 

In 1987, when the big blow occurred, I was working for one of the big national chainsaw brands Jonsered (actually part of Husqvarna) chainsaws and we shifted over 3,000 new chainsaws in the week after the blow.

It is an ill wind.........

 

Same can be said for the Covid pandemic and the supply chain crisis too.   

 

I think if you live in areas with a population density of a few hundred per square mile rather than many thousands per square mile then burning those fallen/cut branches is fine.  

Let us all remember that the amount of CO2 in the air is still climbing and that is despite the pandemic.  Hopefully the current surge to Maxis vans and Teslas will help in the overall fight. 

 

 

working for 

 

[Ootohere]

I do wish that the actual tonnage of coal that is imported to all around  the UK annually is published.  Like the amount that arrives to the Hunterston terminal in the West of Scotland for consumption in North Ayrshire and the industry next to the nuclear plant that might be closing in the not distant future.      EDIT, scrub that.  I read that the terminal for coal closed already.  My bad.   I read the plan for the site was for factories and they would be involved in producing Sub Sea cables. 

Edited 29 November, 2021 by roottoot

[Breezy_Pete]

I've just realised that I do have this (Solar panel plus battery storage), albeit in an extremely limited, bargain-price version.

 

We have an outside loo, (DIY) constructed mid-lockdowns so that we could have people come to courses/events held in an outdoor/garden venue without having to come into the house to use the bog.

It has no heating, but has an LED striplight as there isn't a lot of natural light inside, even in daylight. Pneumatic timer switch so it can't be left on. 

This is powered from an old car battery hooked up to a 7 Watt PV panel inside an adjacent potting shed that faces approx south.  I dare say the panel generates next-to-nothing most days at this time of year, but the demand is very sporadic and short-lived so I think it'll get us by.  I'll have a measure of panel output next time I have a spare minute in daylight.

 

Seems to work pretty reliably thus far, despite the battery being thought to be dead by its donor. 

 

 

 

 

[fabdavrav]

4 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

In 1987, when the big blow occurred, I was working for one of the big national chainsaw brands Jonsered (actually part of Husqvarna) chainsaws and we shifted over 3,000 new chainsaws in the week after the blow.

It is an ill wind.........

 

Same can be said for the Covid pandemic and the supply chain crisis too.   

 

I think if you live in areas with a population density of a few hundred per square mile rather than many thousands per square mile then burning those fallen/cut branches is fine.  

Let us all remember that the amount of CO2 in the air is still climbing and that is despite the pandemic.  Hopefully the current surge to Maxis vans and Teslas will help in the overall fight. 

 

 

working for 

 

 

Yep & I was helping of clear some of the trees around my neighbourhood & also as a volunteer for the National Trust..(I lived near Croydon at the time).

 

When I lived in the USA we had long power cuts in winter, & relied on the wood burner stove, which had a flat top for cooking...First item to be installed in my current house was the Clearview stove...has been one of the top clean burning stoves for decades...& I dry my wood out for a few years outside in longer lengths & then cut/split it & store it 1yrs minimum inside the garage, & burn it efficiently...hardly any flames when its up & running at temp..440-520F on the stove top...!!

 

Moisture content??..what moisture content???

 

I just get 100% fed up with all the marketing & ill thought out push towards 100% full electric, when the basic infrastructure cannot do what the Gov & the green lot want it to do....ask them to pay for it & they baulk!!

[Breezy_Pete]

 

[lol-lol]

3 hours ago, fabdavrav said:

I just get 100% fed up with all the marketing & ill thought out push towards 100% full electric, when the basic infrastructure cannot do what the Gov & the green lot want it to do....ask them to pay for it & they baulk!!

 

As far as possible the new power stations, nuclear of course, will go on the current nuclear sites ie Hinkley Point C, Sizewell C so just plug in from where the old Magnox and AGRs were.

 

More of the problem is the massive substation and overland wiring for the offshore power coming ashore as there is massive Not in my Back Yard protest about so many of these substation dotting around the coast and NIMBY do not want the substation and Grid pylons cross their fields on their way to hook up to the 400 kv grid or even the lower 275 kv grid.

 

My continuing plan is to use the national power during the cheap (5p kwh) Midnight to 430 am and store it locally as far as possible and use solar and the battery storage power during the day time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 29 November, 2021 by lol-lol

[fabdavrav]

2 hours ago, Wino said:

 

 

Your Vision 500 is in a bit of a state......that handle should point downwards when the door is closed..& you've got an air leak via the door gasket top right...& you don't need to load it so full!!....

 

Infact it looks like the paintwork is missing as back to metal across the top between the door & flat top...

 

PLEASE show it some LOVE!!!.....get a couple of cans of Clearview's metallic black paint (don't use anybody else's as its too matt as Clearview's has a high mica content) & strip it down, move outside & give it a respray!....dead easy to do...(done mine a couple of times)

[Breezy_Pete]

Doesn't matter which way the handle points, and cosmetics don't bother me regarding exterior paint.

Loaded full cos I was about to leave for work this morning, and the missus isn't awesome at topping up. 

 

Enough off topic for now though. 

[fabdavrav]

So I said earlier that my mate on south Deeside had his power off for 48hrs....he was lucky...there are quite a few places on that same road still without power...4 days later!!..

 

Storm Arwen: Thousands facing fourth day without power - BBC News

 

In Torphins, Aberdeenshire, people are struggling to keep warm in sub-zero temperatures and are grateful for the hot food handed out by local good Samaritans.

Aberdeenshire: Braemar, Ballater, Kintore, Fyvie, Rothienorman, New Deer, Dyce, Methlick, Tarland, Blackburn, Forgue, Hatton, Cuminestown, Dunecht, St. Cyrus and Fettercairn

Moray: Duffus, Alvah, Deskford, Collieston, Boyndie, Dufftown

Angus: Maryton, Monikie and Edzell

Perthshire: Milnathort, Grange, Braco and Glencarse

 

Storm Arwen: 'We can't go another night without power' - BBC News

 

Aberfeldy in Perthshire still off as well...one local quoted by the BBC stated:- "Everything in our house is electric. We've got an electric heating system, an electric cooker," she added.

"We bought a second-hand generator in Dundee yesterday,"

 

Solar panels (unless a big install) ATM with 7hrs daylight & cloud cover will not provide the minimum 4kW per hour that an electric heating system (heat pump) requires....4 days & 4kW/hr = 384kWh requirement from battery back up or other...

 

So maybe forget the battery back up & instead buy a "polluting" diesel generator as its the only way to replace in a power cut the electric heating that we are being forced towards..also have a "polluting " wood burner installed & have shed built to store & dry your wood out.....or move out of the village & everybody live in major towns & cities....just like the apocalyptic futures depicted in the films...

 

What gets me is that the local power company hasn't been able to just "plug" one of its big trailer diesel generators into the local grid (where the last pole enters the ground before the village or substation) for these villages.....or is it more the case that they don't have enough diesel generators??

[@Lee]

27 minutes ago, fabdavrav said:

So I said earlier that my mate on south Deeside had his power off for 48hrs....he was lucky...there are quite a few places on that same road still without power...4 days later!!..

 

Storm Arwen: Thousands facing fourth day without power - BBC News

 

In Torphins, Aberdeenshire, people are struggling to keep warm in sub-zero temperatures and are grateful for the hot food handed out by local good Samaritans.

Aberdeenshire: Braemar, Ballater, Kintore, Fyvie, Rothienorman, New Deer, Dyce, Methlick, Tarland, Blackburn, Forgue, Hatton, Cuminestown, Dunecht, St. Cyrus and Fettercairn

 

Friend in Schivas, Aberdeenshire says she's had no power since around 3pm on the 26th. Trying to get hold of a 3kVA generator but like rocking horse do-do. 
Chraging her phone in the car. 

[fabdavrav]

1 hour ago, @Lee said:

Friend in Schivas, Aberdeenshire says she's had no power since around 3pm on the 26th. Trying to get hold of a 3kVA generator but like rocking horse do-do. 
Chraging her phone in the car. 

 

"Welcome to the 21st Century"...the new dark ages!

 

 

Just been having a chat with my mate in Deeside, now his PV solar on his roof is a 4kW panel total output....& it is on a south facing roof, NOT overlooked & two stories up, with a nice 40ish deg angle to get the sun quite well throughout the year...so not bad for a fixed set-up.... & having seen it its a very good setup, can't fault it..

 

 

He says he gets 500-600kWh per month during the best summer months.....& about 65-80kWh per month in the worst winter months.

 

Now hes's slightly south of me, him being in Royal Deeside but more North than most of you ...so although "we" get the same amount of day/night hours as you do down south, we get more daylight in the summer & less daylight in the winter than you do...(7hrs of daylight ATM)

 

So say 80kWh solar power generated over say 28 days (four weeks), is 2.85kW/day generated.....so to charge a single 13.5kW Tesla Powewall-2 unit would take 4.73 days....

 

Now go "full electric" for your heating which consumes a min of 4kW/hr...& you can see that in power cuts like this...well forget it, even if you have 10 Powerwall-2 units!

 

I still think gas/LPG heating with a wood burner for back up & maybe a diesel generator is still the best as you can't rely on the electric grid being there...nor can you rely on the electric company providing diesel generators to "power" your local grid as they used to do in cases like this!

 

 

 

 

Edited 29 November, 2021 by fabdavrav
clarity

[Ootohere]

In the not distant past  Pitlochry was without electric for days and no mains gas and no filling stations serving fuel and no tills or ATM,s working.  That is how things are.  More recently the same on Arran.  No mobile phones either.  Life has to just go on or not, and people remember war time, or rationing or the energy crisis,s of the past. 

Edited 29 November, 2021 by roottoot

[lol-lol]

11 minutes ago, fabdavrav said:

 

"Welcome to the 21st Century"...the new dark ages!

 

 

Just been having a chat with my mate in Deeside, now his PV solar on his roof is a 4kW panel total output....& it is on a south facing roof, NOT overlooked & two stories up, with a nice angle 40ish deg angle to get the sun quite well through out the year...so not bad for a fixed set-up.... & having seen it its a very good setup, can't fault it..

 

 

He says he gets 500-600kWh per month during the best summer months.....& about 65-80kWh per month in the worst winter months.

 

Now hes's slightly south of me, him being in Royal Deeside but more North than most of you ...so although "we" get the same amount of day/night hours as you do down south, we get more day in the summer & less day in the winter than you do...(7hrs of daylight ATM)

 

So say 80kWh solar power generated over say 28 days (four weeks), is 2.85kW/day generated.....so to charge a single 13.5kW Tesla Powewall-2 unit would take 4.73 days....

 

Now go "full electric" for your heating which consumes a min of 4kW/hr...& you can see that in power cuts like this...well forget it.

 

I still think gas/LPG heating with a wood burner for back up & maybe a diesel generator is still the best as you can't rely on the electric grid being there...nor can you rely on the electric company providing diesel generators to "power" you local grid as they used to do in cases like this!

 

I would also look to have alternate system ie natural gas and eventually hydrogen I suppose but also very use to having 47 kg propane cylinders with my 40 ft caravan and I would make sure I had some of that to make sure I had some form of backup.

 

To be purely mains electric is Russian roulette.  Perhaps spending time at sea, a thousand miles from external help mean you think a bit more about "What if ?"

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 29 November, 2021 by lol-lol

[fabdavrav]

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

 

 

To be purely mains electric is Russian roulette.

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately many new homes even up here are solely electric with electric air source heat pumps to get high eco ratings in the Home reports......& the Gov etc are on the path to forcing us to be all electric as its "green/eco".

 

The choice is.."no choice".....

 

I'll see how long I am allowed to swim against the tide with my 27yr old highly efficient British made log burner for back up, & my advanced & efficient 11yr old gas heating system based on the previous very advanced (for its time) system from 1994...

[PetrolDave]

Slightly off topic but .... my brother and sister-in-law have been pestered with phone calls about a grant scheme for people on incomes less than £30K to have solar panels installed. Finally they agreed to fill in the forms which made it obvious they qualified - then 2 days later they got a phone call to say that they qualified but their house doesn't because they have unlimited grants for houses with an EPC rating of E, F or G but there is a limit of D rated houses which has already been used up.

 

WTF? Their house is heated by gas so having solar panels won't change their heating costs but could substantially reduce their electricity usage from the grid - which given that National Grid have been reported as predicting only 6% margin this winter seems like they need as many houses as possible to reduce their grid electricity usage?

[Ootohere]

@PetrolDave 2 apparently wealthy directors of a Call Centre type business were prosecuted and fined for calls  of this type.

They had all the staff to do the calls.

There was no Partner / Customer actually doing a Solar grant / sales scheme, they were just Phishing and getting peoples full details to sell to scammers.

 

This type of thing.  Others can go further and have people make applications.

https://www.gbnews.uk/news/scottish-company-fined-150000-for-making-half-a-million-nuises-marketing-calls/124027

 

Edited 30 November, 2021 by roottoot

[PetrolDave]

4 hours ago, roottoot said:

@PetrolDave 2 apparently wealthy directors of a Call Centre type business were prosecuted and fined for calls  of this type.

They had all the staff to do the calls.

There was no Partner / Customer actually doing a Solar grant / sales scheme, they were just Phishing and getting peoples full details to sell to scammers.

This was a genuine organisation not spammers/scammers, we did all the checks before responding to their contact.

[lol-lol]

 

Solar Generator EB180 on its way and prices have gone back up after Black Friday/Cyber Monday discounts so hopefully bought at a good time.  Still looking for Solar Panel (s) the Poweroak ones seem a bit pricey but will read some more reviews and see if any cheaper ones would do.

 

Also ordered some torches and lots of rechargable batteries in readiness for power cuts but the EB180 should just save me money and hopefully be a good basis for learning about solar systems.

 

Interesting will be the incidental heat inefficiencies and losses.  A 1.8 KWh Lithium ion battery will probably only give out 1.4 or 1.5 kWh of power and then it will take around 2 KWh to charge up. At least the losses will manifest as incidental heat which will warm the place up when its cold.

 

How much storage power is enough.

 

Some interesting Survivalist advice from Prof Hobo.

 

   

[fabdavrav]

5 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

Solar Generator EB180 on its way and prices have gone back up after Black Friday/Cyber Monday discounts so hopefully bought at a good time.  Still looking for Solar Panel (s) the Poweroak ones seem a bit pricey but will read some more reviews and see if any cheaper ones would do.

 

Also ordered some torches and lots of rechargable batteries in readiness for power cuts but the EB180 should just save me money and hopefully be a good basis for learning about solar systems.

 

Interesting will be the incidental heat inefficiencies and losses.  A 1.8 KWh Lithium ion battery will probably only give out 1.4 or 1.5 kWh of power and then it will take around 2 KWh to charge up. At least the losses will manifest as incidental heat which will warm the place up when its cold.

 

How much storage power is enough.

 

Some interesting Survivalist advice from Prof Hobo.

 

   

 

Just basic common sense....

 

A few points he makes re solar panels to charge up the portable battery packs...he states "so long as you have some sun"......Which brings me back to my mates very good 4kW panel system only making 60-85kW/month (say 28days) in the worst winter months...i.e. as little as 2.32kW per day....& all because of the latitude meaning as little as 7hrs of daylight on a sunny winters day......

 

To place in context, besides Alaska, the USA is south of the UK...(max north USA is approx. 49 deg 11sec...UK, Lands end in Cornwall starts at 50deg 2sec)..& me & my mate & all the places in Aberdeenshire that are still without power (for the 5th night in a row) are above the 57deg line.

 

So go back to the 10 quantity of Tesla Powerwall-2 fully charged at 135kw total capacity....with the power cut starting around 3PM last Friday...lets say you also managed to get 2.32.kW per 24hrs out of the 4kW solar panels, (as he does in winter) so that's an additional 9.955kW supply...

 

Thats a total of 144.955kW supply over 103hrs = 1.4kW per hour as backup....

 

1.4kW (1400W or 6amps at 230V) supply per hour would run a fridge, freezer, gas boiler & controls, & some LED lights....however its doesn't take into account any power conversion loses etc., etc....& remember that's with 135kW of battery back up & 4kW of solar!

 

 

[lol-lol]

2 hours ago, fabdavrav said:

 

Just basic common sense....

 

A few points he makes re solar panels to charge up the portable battery packs...he states "so long as you have some sun"......Which brings me back to my mates very good 4kW panel system only making 60-85kW/month (say 28days) in the worst winter months...i.e. as little as 2.32kW per day....& all because of the latitude meaning as little as 7hrs of daylight on a sunny winters day......

To place in context, besides Alaska, the USA is south of the UK...(max north USA is approx. 49 deg 11sec...UK, Lands end in Cornwall starts at 50deg 2sec)..& me & my mate & all the places in Aberdeenshire that are still without power (for the 5th night in a row) are above the 57deg line.

So go back to the 10 quantity of Tesla Powerwall-2 fully charged at 135kw total capacity....with the power cut starting around 3PM last Friday...lets say you also managed to get 2.32.kW per 24hrs out of the 4kW solar panels, (as he does in winter) so that's an additional 9.955kW supply...

Thats a total of 144.955kW supply over 103hrs = 1.4kW per hour as backup....

1.4kW (1400W or 6amps at 230V) supply per hour would run a fridge, freezer, gas boiler & controls, & some LED lights....however its doesn't take into account any power conversion loses etc., etc....& remember that's with 135kW of battery back up & 4kW of solar!

 

I gather our minimum daylight is around 7 hours 45 minutes on the 50 degree of latitude on the winter solstice but I would not rely total on electricity or totally on solar.

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1jMT0maiw8vowWpp8_LJnpIORhW7DlDjiOA-KOy4ec54/htmlpresent   Solar panels stillpretty expensive at about £2 to £3 per watt generated.  

 

I hope my gas stove would work but I suppose that could go after a while as gas main pressure steadily dropped off if the gas main pressure was not being maintained.  Some backup solution for light and even a bit of heating, presuming one does not have a wood-burner can be quite cheap solutions.  I have always kept a good store of tea lights.  Two pence each when you buy by the hundred and seem to last several hours each, the heat is a bonus. 

 

I am keen on ground air pumps but you really have to want to being staying in ones house a long time to get ones money back unless one gets a great subsidy from the government which they have been doing but it seems to come and go so quickly. The heat pump can have the advantage of working as an air conditioning cooling circuitry when the temperature gets hot.

 

Couple of years ago visited Alberta and British Columbia and was stunned to hear that over a thousand Canadian and Amercans in NW USA died of heat stroke and the Canadians are living above the 49th parallel where the border is.  A HEAT DOME formed and held temperatures at about 50C for such a length of time it caused the deaths as relatively few Canadians had air con.  Certainly works well in my Zoe with a return of either heating or cooling of between 2 to a and 3 to 1 of energy in to cooling or heating effect.

 

Battery tech as well as PV solar panel output/storage per dollar/pound is improving by between 10 and 20 % in real terms per year so it is case of building up a redundant system, perhaps using it to aim to only pay the cheap middle of the night electricity of circa 5p a kWh that you get with Octopus Go and other similar tariffs.   Think I need a panel(s) around 200 Watts and a couple of them for 400 watts in series so the amperage stays below 10A but the voltage is in the 16v to 60 voltage but as you suggest I would only be getting half power in winter sun. Interesting calculations from by the Energy Trust and if one is home all day and can use, or put in to battery storage for the night, that excess solar one can make a system where one does not even need to buy    https://www.pvfitcalculator.energysavingtrust.org.uk/

 

I think one is talking about a 8 kWh potential system rather than the 4 kWh you were mentioning above and that is not cheap but the prices are falling continuously and there is an expected break through in solar panels soon which could see the efficiency jump from the current poor 20 or 25% to something like 30 or 40%.  Couple that with 10% per year real cost drop.  Just hope our UK currency does not weaken too much to make imports of all this equipment wipe out the fall on the wordwide market.  

    

This message was sent using Octopus cheap tariff energy at 5p per kWh.  

 

Edited 1 December, 2021 by lol-lol

[KenONeill]

11 hours ago, fabdavrav said:

1.4kW (1400W or 6amps at 230V) supply per hour would run a fridge, freezer, gas boiler & controls, & some LED lights.

If you have a mains gas supply, which most of those affected by the current electricity supply outage don't.

[fabdavrav]

8 minutes ago, KenONeill said:

If you have a mains gas supply, which most of those affected by the current electricity supply outage don't.

 

Many have LPG or oil powered boilers..which still require circa 160W electrical supply to power the valves/pumps/ignitors...

 

My mate is on LPG...huge storage tanks in ground at the entrance to the development hes on....& one of my other mates in the middle of nowhere has an oil fired boiler...