2 hours ago, lol-lol said:

Those of us who source our own EVs, some of us use our EVs for work, some of use will use mild and full hybrids as well but the big change to miles drive with EVs compared to ICE will be by goods transporters. My office at Heathrow uses EVs which pick up freight from the airline sheds to our off airport transit shed but the big change in use of EVs for moving goods is with companies like DPD who now have over 3,300 EVs used on delivery.  DPD have teamed up with Glasgow HQ company Oncharge but using the DPD Bicester depot as a base. 

 

https://green.dpd.co.uk/

 

50 kwh battery packs can be dropped off (must weight a bit) and used by those two thirds of drivers who do not have home chargers. Trying to find out more but sounds interesting.

Presumably put inside the van during the night to do the charging and then Oncharge pickup in the morning. Questions like is it doing 7.4 kW AC charging rather than DC ?

 

Payloads

 

 

 

 

I wonder how many people the Minibus version will carry?

 

 

Edited 24 September, 20232 yr by Stonekeeper

It’s them getting old that worries me most, after 42 years as a mechanic some of the things I have seen people (including so called professionals) do to keep a car running would have ended in death if it was an EV. Take this taxi driver’s solution to the wrong battery shorting out on the inside of the bonnet, he didn’t even bother to double up and do the earth which still hit. Now imagine someone hacking a high voltage battery…

 

2 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

This is precisely my point, that data is limited owing to the fact that EV cars are still only a very small percentage of the total number of cars in use and also are still very young and have not suffered the ageing process that the older more common ICE cars have, and it is well known that materials do deteriorate with age and heating/cooling process not just from the cars normal thermal cycle but also the seasonal thermal ageing process. 

 

So we are NOT comparing apples with apples and as the ICE cars decline and EV replace them, such incidents will become more commonplace and in a few years time, the figures may well show that the fire authorities fears and worries were indeed justified after all.

 

Folks, please don't this to mean that I'm anti EV, I'm not, It just that we cannot make the claims that EV's are safer or indeed cleaner for the environment at this stage in their life cycle. All we can say with total confidence is that where they are being used, there is less pollution being emitted, but sadly that pollution may well be happening in other locations around the globe, so we MAY only be moving the problem elsewhere and that will be proven in due course, one way or the other.

 

You are sounding like a Vogon.

 

We would still be in the oceans thinking oh that land looks dodgy etc.

 

Remember what the doom-mongers said about the Prius (over thirteen years ago now)

 

 

https://jalopnik.com/toyota-prius-hybrid-battery-swap-is-surprisingly-easy-1850404554

44 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

You are sounding like a Vogon.

 

We would still be in the oceans thinking oh that land looks dodgy etc.

 

LMAO, just ignore the facts. I haven't said that EVs are not good, nor said that we shouldn't be driving them. Currently, they are an unknown factor and to be running around making wild statements like they are safer than ICE cars is BS. To be able to make that claim you require almost equal amounts ICE and EV's being used in the same fashion and over the same period of time that we have had ICE for. Then if EV's are actually subjected to fewer fires then the claim is justified. The Titanic was also supposed to be unsinkable and the future of shipping, how did that go?

 

Remember also how diesel was supposed to be saving the planet and was the fuel of the future?

 

Titanic - Wikipedia 

Edited 24 September, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

 

 

1 hour ago, Crasher said:

It’s them getting old that worries me most, after 42 years as a mechanic some of the things I have seen people (including so called professionals) do to keep a car running would have ended in death if it was an EV. Take this taxi driver’s solution to the wrong battery shorting out on the inside of the bonnet, he didn’t even bother to double up and do the earth which still hit. Now imagine someone hacking a high voltage battery…

 

The other point worth mentioning here might be that with things mechanical, you can often work things out how they go together and how they work and can keep out of danger because you can see the obvious danger, but with a high voltage battery you don't have that luxury and of course with it being DC, there is always the danger of becoming locked onto the danger, whereas as AC will normally throw you off and across the room, so the danger of electrocution is far higher with attempting to DIY with a EV and battery voltages rising all the time to get higher ranges. Early EV's were 400V, newer ones are 800V and I suspect that they go even higher yet.

 

With mechanical things you see, hear or feel the danger, with electricity, you get none of these warnings apart from feel, and often by the time you feel it, it is already too late to save yourself.

@toot When I watched the second video you linked, I thought for a second that was driving the Scot rail car .

 

The EVROS 1200 mile EV van challenge was not quite smooth sailing, with the Highland Council, stepping to lend them their charging facilities in the council yard at Fort William, they would have been well and truly stuffed.

 

So there go, I do watch the videos and in my opinion that is how we can all learn something new each day, my mind is never closed to new ideas, but like any good engineer, I always question and probe things first, act in haste and repent at leisure 

How fantastic it would have been if the chargers here beside the Queensferry Crossing & Transport Scotland,s / National Control Centre had not been out of commission for more than a year to the public.

Edited 24 September, 20232 yr by toot

2 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

LMAO, just ignore the facts. I haven't said that EVs are not good, nor said that we shouldn't be driving them. Currently, they are an unknown factor and to be running around making wild statements like they are safer than ICE cars is BS. To be able to make that claim you require almost equal amounts ICE and EV's being used in the same fashion and over the same period of time that we have had ICE for. Then if EV's are actually subjected to fewer fires then the claim is justified. The Titanic was also supposed to be unsinkable and the future of shipping, how did that go?

Remember also how diesel was supposed to be saving the planet and was the fuel of the future?

Titanic - Wikipedia 

 

An unknown factor where Nissan and Renault have been making EVs by the hundreds of thousands over the last more than a decade.

 

Where buyers have decided that the Model Y is the car to buy making it the best selling car in the world and in numerous countries.

 

Insurance companies have already computer via the actuaries what the risks are and whilst insurance is not cheap for a TESLA the fire risk is clearly not a big factor in their EV premiums as it is not with my Zoe's premium.

 

There are some 35 Million EV, including a few million PHEVs and the total is expected to reach 40M by the end of the year and most of them have been on the road one and ten years so we have a lot of data. 

 

   

 

 

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

 

An unknown factor where Nissan and Renault have been making EVs by the hundreds of thousands over the last more than a decade.

 

Where buyers have decided that the Model Y is the car to buy making it the best selling car in the world and in numerous countries.

 

Insurance companies have already computer via the actuaries what the risks are and whilst insurance is not cheap for a TESLA the fire risk is clearly not a big factor in their EV premiums as it is not with my Zoe's premium.

 

There are some 35 Million EV, including a few million PHEVs and the total is expected to reach 40M by the end of the year and most of them have been on the road one and ten years so we have a lot of data. 

 

   

 

 

Not enough clearly, it is the older cars that catch fire, ie, older than 10 years. A 10 year car is not old really to most people. 

4 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

of course with it being DC, there is always the danger of becoming locked onto the danger, whereas as AC will normally throw you off and across the room

 

Are you sure about that O wise one or have you not been practicing what you preach?

 

4 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

 like any good engineer, I always question and probe things first,

 

It doesnt sound like you have ever ever had a mains electric shock, a Google one doesn't count.

 

BTW neither could throw a person across a room.

 

Edited 24 September, 20232 yr by J.R.

3 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

An unknown factor where Nissan and Renault have been making EVs by the hundreds of thousands over the last more than a decade.

 

Where buyers have decided that the Model Y is the car to buy making it the best selling car in the world and in numerous countries.

 

Insurance companies have already computer via the actuaries what the risks are and whilst insurance is not cheap for a TESLA the fire risk is clearly not a big factor in their EV premiums as it is not with my Zoe's premium.

 

There are some 35 Million EV, including a few million PHEVs and the total is expected to reach 40M by the end of the year and most of them have been on the road one and ten years so we have a lot of data. 

 

   

 

 

 

 

At the moment the "Delivery in 8 weeks" is probably a big selling point

 

 

56 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

Are you sure about that O wise one or have you not been practicing what you preach?

 

 

It doesnt sound like you have ever ever had a mains electric shock, a Google one doesn't count.

 

BTW neither could throw a person across a room.

 

Oh, really, being a part of an HSE series of safety lectures and film shows at various factories around the UK, you somehow doubt that I speak the truth, geez.

I have been in the electrical industry in various capacities all of my working life, and you are trying to cast doubt on what I'm saying. Shame on you.

 

'Desperate' man was 'dead for two minutes' after being electrocuted while stealing scrap to pay bills during lockdown | UK News | Sky News

5 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

An unknown factor where Nissan and Renault have been making EVs by the hundreds of thousands over the last more than a decade.

 

Where buyers have decided that the Model Y is the car to buy making it the best selling car in the world and in numerous countries.

 

Insurance companies have already computer via the actuaries what the risks are and whilst insurance is not cheap for a TESLA the fire risk is clearly not a big factor in their EV premiums as it is not with my Zoe's premium.

 

There are some 35 Million EV, including a few million PHEVs and the total is expected to reach 40M by the end of the year and most of them have been on the road one and ten years so we have a lot of data. 

 

   

 

 

According to SMMT, the UK figures do not reflect those you quoted, they say 1.1 million EV cars (with a plug, so that is PHEV and full EVs) on the UK roads and some 35,148,045 cars in total, so 34 times more ICE than EV, therefore fires will be higher with ICE by association because of their sheer numbers. I still say that it is way too early to claim that EV's are safer, they haven't reached a critical point yet in their lifecycle where ageing and fatigue in components start to demonstrate high failure rates. Nissan Leaf, launched in 2009 in Japan, first went on sale in the UK in March 2011 and after selling 500,000 in 6 years, it was replaced in 2017 with version 2, so EVs and PHEV are still not making massive inroads to the UK motoring scene if you go with the figures from the SMMT who should know their stuff?

 

More than 1m electric vehicles now on UK roads | Electric fleet news

 

Used Nissan Leaf (Mk1, 2011-2018) review | Auto Express

 

As in the video, Tesla do seem to have the market share and that is maybe because they appeal more the younger generation with their integration with a mobile phone through their APP and they can deliver sooner than most other brands and they also started with a clean piece of paper and had no traditional car building thinking to cloud their vision.

Edited 24 September, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

God this whole EV fire crap is getting boring.

Find a hobby to fill your time rather than wasting your life on it.

I can recommend Astrophotography 👍

Edited 24 September, 20232 yr by @Lee

6 minutes ago, @Lee said:

God this whole EV fire crap is getting boring.

Find a hobby to fill your time rather than wasting your life on it.

I can recommend Astrophotography 👍

I totally agree with your thinking, I really don't want to be having to go over the whole saga time and time again. I'm fine with people's choice to own and run an EV, its a free country and hell I might even end up with one myself if the right conditions crop up, I'm far from being anti them. But the différance is that I'm realistic enough to fully understand that there is an inherent risk with them, they have not yet reached their peak in terms of development.

10 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

there is an inherent risk with them

There's an inherent risk in drinking too much water or breathing too much oxygen.

Life's a gamble full of risks.

You could get hit by a bus tomorrow.

Buy an EV or don't up to you. Nobody's forcing you to. Or do buy one and take a gamble. Or buy a Zafira or a MkVI Golf and take another gamble. I hope you've got smoke alarms fitted everywhere.

Edited 24 September, 20232 yr by @Lee

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

According to SMMT, the UK figures do not reflect those you quoted, they say 1.1 million EV cars (with a plug, so that is PHEV and full EVs) on the UK roads and some 35,148,045 cars in total, so 34 times more ICE than EV, therefore fires will be higher with ICE by association because of their sheer numbers. I still say that it is way too early to claim that EV's are safer, they haven't reached a critical point yet in their lifecycle where ageing and fatigue in components start to demonstrate high failure rates. Nissan Leaf, launched in 2009 in Japan, first went on sale in the UK in March 2011 and after selling 500,000 in 6 years, it was replaced in 2017 with version 2, so EVs and PHEV are still not making massive inroads to the UK motoring scene if you go with the figures from the SMMT who should know their stuff?

More than 1m electric vehicles now on UK roads | Electric fleet news

Used Nissan Leaf (Mk1, 2011-2018) review | Auto Express

As in the video, Tesla do seem to have the market share and that is maybe because they appeal more the younger generation with their integration with a mobile phone through their APP and they can deliver sooner than most other brands and they also started with a clean piece of paper and had no traditional car building thinking to cloud their vision.

 

https://www.ev-volumes.com/

 

9 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Oh, really, being a part of an HSE series of safety lectures and film shows at various factories around the UK, you somehow doubt that I speak the truth, geez.

I have been in the electrical industry in various capacities all of my working life, and you are trying to cast doubt on what I'm saying. Shame on you.

 

'Desperate' man was 'dead for two minutes' after being electrocuted while stealing scrap to pay bills during lockdown | UK News | Sky News

So I was right, you have never had a mains 240vac electric shock and seemingly dont understand the difference between AC and DC current, being kind perhaps you have confused one with the other.

 

Not casting doubt, 100% disagreeing with your assertion that a DC current electrical shock will freeze the person to the conductor(s) and that an AC one will throw them off and across the room, no element of doubt.

 

I would prefer to rely on my own experiences of multiple AC shocks and a couple of DC and also the wisdom of medical professionals than the account of a metal thief, I will refrain from using my usual pejorative for the type.

 

https://www.electricaltechnology.org/2019/08/ac-dc-which-is-more-dangerous.html

 

This is not the medical resource I wanted to quote but the wording has been lifted from the study paper, I am leaving now for an 800km drive, no doubt you will Google your heart out during that time hoping to prove your assertion.

 

FYI its the bodies muscles that throw a person across a room.

11 hours ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

 

At the moment the "Delivery in 8 weeks" is probably a big selling point

 

 

Also picking up from Southampton, bypassing the dealer and saving many hundreds of pounds.

 

Light years ahead of other car sellers.

 

 

Personally i can not be doing with them. 

I do not always want my phone with me & when in the car i am hopeless using my left hand to use touch screens.

Horses for courses and it is good there are choices within EV,s just as there are with ICE vehicles. 

There are going to be a very large number of used TESLA available just as there will be with other manufacturers vehicles.

 

I am even crap driving and stretching a finger far left to get a button when driving a right hand drive car that has the various stuff to suit a left hand drive car other then the steering wheel moved to the other side.

 

Lane keep assist has saved me a few times for crashing, burning or just kerbing a wheel. 

I do not have that anymore but then i do not need to use a touch screen either when driving my daily.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 25 September, 20232 yr by toot

56 minutes ago, toot said:

Personally i can not be doing with them. 

I do not always want my phone with me & when in the car i am hopeless using my left hand to use touch screens.

Horses for courses and it is good there are choices within EV,s just as there are with ICE vehicles. 

There are going to be a very large number of used TESLA available just as there will be with other manufacturers vehicles.

I am even crap driving and stretching a finger far left to get a button when driving a right hand drive car that has the various stuff to suit a left hand drive car other then the steering wheel moved to the other side.

Lane keep assist has saved me a few times for crashing, burning or just kerbing a wheel. 

I do not have that anymore but then i do not need to use a touch screen either when driving my daily.

 

I think the idea is to use voice rather than finger on the 17 inch tablet.  TESLA have window buttons and indicator etc stalks I gather.

 

On most TESLA the screen is on the right side of the driver as vast majority of TESLAs are LHD.  TESLA does not even make half its models in RHD ie the S or the X currently.

 

 "Left side is the right side and the right side is the wrong side", oh that is for charge ports rather than tablet. Take a 17 inch tablet and see me in the morning.  

 

I can not get the MINI to understand what i am asking the Sat Nav so i ask the Phone on Waze to direct me.

When i input into the MINI,s inbuilt Sat Nav it is absolutely hopeless.

The 'i'drive works and the buttons around it work fine for what i need.

 

...........

The synthetic fuels need a lot of Electricity & fuels can be produced from crops. but people are starving or produce it from waste products from crops and human ^ animal waste.

Using waste like Electricity that can be generated and needs stored to produce hydrogen is simple. 

Using carbon from production like making drinks or industrial products to then produce hydrogen to use in manufacturing is simply clever as well and

happens.

 

Paying for Fuel / Electricity is 'Tax per mile' if there is Duty / VAT on it, and if you want to pay less per mile then have a more efficient vehicle.

Tax the vehicles for days on the road be them driving or parked, that happens now.  Tax by length & weight of them, driving / parked.

 

 

 

Edited 25 September, 20232 yr by toot

2 hours ago, J.R. said:

So I was right, you have never had a mains 240vac electric shock and seemingly dont understand the difference between AC and DC current, being kind perhaps you have confused one with the other.

 

Not casting doubt, 100% disagreeing with your assertion that a DC current electrical shock will freeze the person to the conductor(s) and that an AC one will throw them off and across the room, no element of doubt.

 

I would prefer to rely on my own experiences of multiple AC shocks and a couple of DC and also the wisdom of medical professionals than the account of a metal thief, I will refrain from using my usual pejorative for the type.

 

https://www.electricaltechnology.org/2019/08/ac-dc-which-is-more-dangerous.html

 

This is not the medical resource I wanted to quote but the wording has been lifted from the study paper, I am leaving now for an 800km drive, no doubt you will Google your heart out during that time hoping to prove your assertion.

 

FYI its the bodies muscles that throw a person across a room.

Well Einstein, you are so wrong with your assertions, try 415V RMS, 3 phase supply which has a peak to peak voltage of approx 680Vac @50Hz with 2,000A incomer in a switchboard and see how you fair. 

 

FYI, I am well aware that it's the bodies muscles that throw a person across a room, and its, the muscles' reaction to electrical stimulus received from the shock. AC passes through 0V 100 times on a 50Hz supply which allow the muscles to force the body away from the point of contact as the voltage swings between +ve and -ve , whereas on a DC supply, there is never going to be 0V until either the energy is dissipated or the supply is switched off. On a DC supply, the point of contact with the voltage is critical when it comes to being locked onto the supply, but as always the voltage and the available amount of energy also play a large part. 

 

You as a self-confessed person who used to design electronics parts for the automotive industry should be aware that there is a huge difference in the amount of energy being supplied from a charged capacitor in electronics to say that coming from a mercury arc rectifier. 

 

The video link is more for the benefit of others to get a grasp of what we are talking about and the kind of energy involved.