the truth about electric cars

[wyx087]

35 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

a question as to whether it would have a heat pump or not, 2021 models were suppose to get the heat pump as standard but this was the time of parts shortages. 

I thought all Leaf apart from Visia (whatever spelling, the lowest trim) get heat pump.

 

15 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Will leafspy tell you how many charge cycles it's had as V2H will effectively double them and hasten the battery demise to the point that's not cost effective? 

Leafspy shows how many charging "events", which may not correspond to cycles. QC count is rapid charging plug in events and L2 is slower AC charging. Those are not the main things to check.

 

From my car:

 

The key thing to look out for is unbalanced cell degradation. cells 40-something to 60-something sits under the rear seat in a different orientation. Heat gets build up there. So the thing to look out for is to make sure at low SoC, those cells don't drain faster than rest of the cells. Make sure delta V stays within a few mV.

 

So far, just 5-6 months in, V2H hasn't accelerated degradation for me. With low mileage, time element of degradation will play a bigger role than cycle count, so might as well use those cycles.

 

 

For home battery, LFP would be the chemistry I get, definitely. For car, LFP also makes a lot of sense if software is well designed to overcome its shortcomings: low recharge speed when cold.

[xman]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/electriccars/article-13145329/End-line-Britains-mass-produced-electric-car-Nissan-stops-building-electric-Leaf-Sunderland.html?ico=mol_mobile_money

 

Seems they might have over 2 years worth of new stock to tide them over until the replacement comes on stream sometime in 2026

[Graham Butcher]

1 hour ago, xman said:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/electriccars/article-13145329/End-line-Britains-mass-produced-electric-car-Nissan-stops-building-electric-Leaf-Sunderland.html?ico=mol_mobile_money

 

Seems they might have over 2 years worth of new stock to tide them over until the replacement comes on stream sometime in 2026

The levels of stock of standard models in most makes was why I always went to some non-standard colours and factory options when I ordered my new cars, so I would be certain of getting one that had not sat around in some stockpile for a while and it also the latest software etc fitted. Downside of that was, however, that I had to wait for months on end to get it. I used to get regular updates on the cars progress in build planning.

[Stonekeeper]

4 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

 

 

got to be worthwhile though, 50p a kWh but back in to the grid at least I reckon ie double money plus !

     

 

How long do you think before that bubble bursts.

 

People used to get good money for solar panel output once too, less attractive now.

 

 

"

“FFR is not fixed price, it’s a competitive market,” he adds. “And so if every vehicle becomes electric and then every vehicle is plugging in at similar times, you are not going to earn the same money.

“FFR will drop to a relatively negligible value. We’ve seen that in other grid services already, and you will have to start looking at other less lucrative value streams. 

“However, for the first adopters, there is a huge opportunity. If you look at the business cases, I think we will see there are niche customer types that are able to offer services like frequency regulation much more effectively, and therefore access that vacuum.

“Others with more intermittent or more variable driving patterns will not be able to access the higher values, so will get lower values from it.”

 

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/fleet-management/v2g-easy-money

 

 

Secondly can i ask why you would buy a car to be a storage battery, why not just buy a storage battery?

 

There are people ready to make money from those seeking to make money from buying Power banks hoping to profit from selling kws to the energy companies.

 

https://www.prnewswire.co.uk/news-releases/with-8-2-cagr-power-bank-market-size-to-reach-usd-18-32-bn-by-2029--power-bank-industry-global-trends-growth-and-future-prospects-301836491.html

 

 

But at the end of the day paying 50p to sell it back to you for 8p is not sustainable.

[Graham Butcher]

52 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

How long do you think before that bubble bursts.

 

People used to get good money for solar panel output once too, less attractive now.

 

 

"

“FFR is not fixed price, it’s a competitive market,” he adds. “And so if every vehicle becomes electric and then every vehicle is plugging in at similar times, you are not going to earn the same money.

“FFR will drop to a relatively negligible value. We’ve seen that in other grid services already, and you will have to start looking at other less lucrative value streams. 

“However, for the first adopters, there is a huge opportunity. If you look at the business cases, I think we will see there are niche customer types that are able to offer services like frequency regulation much more effectively, and therefore access that vacuum.

“Others with more intermittent or more variable driving patterns will not be able to access the higher values, so will get lower values from it.”

 

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/fleet-management/v2g-easy-money

 

 

Secondly can i ask why you would buy a car to be a storage battery, why not just buy a storage battery?

 

There are people ready to make money from those seeking to make money from buying Power banks hoping to profit from selling kws to the energy companies.

 

https://www.prnewswire.co.uk/news-releases/with-8-2-cagr-power-bank-market-size-to-reach-usd-18-32-bn-by-2029--power-bank-industry-global-trends-growth-and-future-prospects-301836491.html

 

 

But at the end of the day paying 50p to sell it back to you for 8p is not sustainable.

I did kind of have my doubts that it was going to be viable long term and thought that the whole might just be a bit of marketing hype in order to bolster up electric car sales as part of the electric narrative, maybe designed to help the UK become of the countries with the greatest adoption of electric, but that may be incorrect as I have almost zero knowledge of this.

[wyx087]

6 hours ago, xman said:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/electriccars/article-13145329/End-line-Britains-mass-produced-electric-car-Nissan-stops-building-electric-Leaf-Sunderland.html?ico=mol_mobile_money

 

Seems they might have over 2 years worth of new stock to tide them over until the replacement comes on stream sometime in 2026

Sorry, I scanned through the document and searched for keywords, I can't find anywhere that mentions stock should last for 2 years.

 

But I'm not surprised, Leaf platform is long overdue a renew, buying new Chademo rapid charging EV today will not age well. So they must have not been selling well.

 

As Graham pointed out, buying sitting stock isn't ideal. I sure wouldn't want to get a car that has been sat for 2 years. Especially buying an EV with 2 years built-in degradation into the battery.

 

2 hours ago, Stonekeeper said:

Secondly can i ask why you would buy a car to be a storage battery, why not just buy a storage battery?

Capacity vs cost.

 

60 kWh Leaf are selling for ~£15k at the moment.

 

I don't believe you can get anywhere near 50 kWh capacity for that price for home battery storage.

 

But the 50p gain is also quite rare, only during Octopus Saving Sessions, like today 1800-1830. Normally it is 7.5p/kWh to buy overnight and 15p/kWh export.

 

 

[Stonekeeper]

Overtime more and more people will be charging cars overnight, eventually this will reduce the need for energy traders to sell electricity cheaper because the times of excess capacity will be reduced?

[xman]

Just now, wyx087 said:

Sorry, I scanned through the document and searched for keywords, I can't find anywhere that mentions stock should last for 2 years.

I said seems they might have, not should last.

 

"Nissan says that while production is stopping this week, the car remains on sale and is available to customers as normal through existing stock.  "

 

Repacement is due in 2026, today is early 2024. 2 years is a long time for a product replacement with no production.

 

In the UK, as you know, pure EV's need to make up 22% of their UK new car sales this year increasing year on year to avoid crippling penalties or the purchase of expensive credits from the likes of Tesla.

 

I personally believe they have over produced either not anticipating the collapse in sales of the Leaf or maybe intentionally building stock to optimise costs/tax and then cut further costs by closing the line completely.

[wyx087]

40 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

Overtime more and more people will be charging cars overnight, eventually this will reduce the need for energy traders to sell electricity cheaper because the times of excess capacity will be reduced?

You are forgetting the ever increasing renewable energy mix of the grid. Renewables are inherently variable as it changes on a whelm. Battery storage will assist in this regard.

 

But I agree with you, I believe price differences would be smaller throughout a single day, price variations across multiple days will appear (eg. windy days).

[lol-lol]

13 hours ago, wyx087 said:

You are forgetting the ever increasing renewable energy mix of the grid. Renewables are inherently variable as it changes on a whelm. Battery storage will assist in this regard.

 

But I agree with you, I believe price differences would be smaller throughout a single day, price variations across multiple days will appear (eg. windy days).

 

So many questions come up and challenges of governments to maintain revenues streams.

 

I am not it is fully recognised how profitable and easy it will become for individual to store, sell and gift electrical energy to others and therefore circumvent the supply companies, or optimise the buying time from them to minimise costs to individuals.  Examples of this: -

1.  About half of houses in my road appear to have at least one EV charger.  It now costs about a grand to get a new EV charger but how about neighbours renting out use of their chargers usage to neighbours.  Not that using a granny cable can be quite good and very cheap start to charging EVs.
2. Charging ones home batteries when cheap, charging the car and with increasing V2G cars one can take that power and gift it to family and friends when visiting.
3. Eventually avoiding having main power delivered in to the house and saving the exorbitant Standing Charge and just topping up ones electrical storage in the home battery when one fills up at a cheap TESLA or other charging network and using ones vehicle to take it home.  Effectively using the car battery, or a portable home battery like from Allpowers, Ecoflow etc and bring the power home and save having the £200 a year electricity Standing charge.       

We will see in the budget on Wednesday what Jeremy the Hunt will do keep the coffers topping up, a penny or two on fuel duty, but electricity is just to evasive to tax. Any rise in VAT on home supplies will just spur more solar and home batteries to make us of cheap night time lecky so UK government will get even less revenue from that and look to raise it elsewhere.

 

[xman]

6 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

how about neighbours renting out use of their chargers usage to neighbours

 

I'm sure there would be legal, insurance and tax implications. You might be even in breach of your contract with electricity companies or mortgage provider.

Public liability, safety certificates, declaring income to the taxman. If you rent your property you'd certainly be in breach of your rental contract.

[xman]

22 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Eventually avoiding having main power delivered in to the house and saving the exorbitant Standing Charge and just topping up ones electrical storage in the home battery when one fills up at a cheap TESLA or other charging network and using ones vehicle to take it home.  Effectively using the car battery, or a portable home battery like from Allpowers, Ecoflow etc and bring the power home and save having the £200 a year electricity Standing charge.    

How cheap is this Tesla electricity?

Not sure Id want to drive to my nearest Tesla charger, spend half an hour or more to top it up then drive home every 3 or 4 days at best. Oops I forgot about my freezer and fridge and home heating. Especially when I go out for the day, or go away for a few days.

 

Oh and what if I need to use the car to go anywhere a bit further? Yes another trip to the charger.

 

All to save £200, I don't think so.

 

Don't tell me your solar panels will help, not in winter or at night.

Edited 2 March by xman

[Stonekeeper]

15 minutes ago, xman said:

How cheap is this Tesla electricity?

No sure Id want to drive to my nearest Tesla charger, spend half an hour or more to top it up then drive home every 3 or 4 days at best. Oops I forgot about my freezer and fridge and home heating. Especially when I go out for the day, or go away for a few days.

 

Oh and what if I need to use the car to go anywhere a bit further? Yes another trip to the charger.

 

All to save £200, I don't think so.

Model 3 Standard Range: £32.16 Per Charge

60 (battery size in kWh) x 80% = 48 kWh 

48 x 0.67 (cost in pence per kW) = £32.16

Model 3 Long Range & Performance: £44.22 Per Charge

82 x 80% = 66 kWh 

66 x 0.67 = £44.22

Model Y Standard Range: £32.16 Per Charge

60 x 80% = 48 kWh 

48 x 0.67 = £32.16

Model Y Long Range & Performance: £44.22 Per Charge

82 x 80% = 66 kWh 

66 x 0.67 = £44.22

 

 

Tesla owners who subscribe to the £10.99 per month membership will be charged around 53p per kWh to charge their car.

 

Bargain😂

 

https://www.vanarama.com/electric-leasing/cars/tesla-charging-cost-guide

 

Edited 2 March by Stonekeeper

[lol-lol]

19 minutes ago, xman said:

 

I'm sure there would be legal, insurance and tax implications. You might be even in breach of your contract with electricity companies or mortgage provider.

Public liability, safety certificates, declaring income to the taxman. If you rent your property you'd certainly be in breach of your rental contract.

 

Do not think such matters have been tested in court.  We had a bit of an issue on my estate, as many places have, due to climate change and poorish construction of the supplies of electricity and comms conduits to the house ie collapsed pipe tunnels severing the lecky and or comms the electricity board took supply off my electricity supply to feed my neighbours house.  Obviously before the meter so I was not paying for it and it was like that for days, looked very messy.

 

I don't see how Revenue could control such a neighbourly supply of power to the next door EV.  The 5% VAT is being paid.  Easily safely done to my two neighbours and would not even be a trip hazard to the Postie as the lead would go across lawns and if the car is parked net to the lawn would not be across the path to the front door though I see some posties walking across the lawns and hopping over the low wall on one side just to avoid a 10M walkaround.   Unenforceable I reckon. 

 

[xman]

I pay £1,029 inc vat and standing charge for 3211kWh annual consumption. Less from 1 April.

 

Lets assume my yet to be purchased £50,000 Tesla can supply my home electricity needs at 90% round trip efficiency. So 3568kWh. I'll discount the cost of the trip to the charger and back and my time spent waiting or buying/consuming overpriced coffee and effect on my mental and physical health. Never mind VED, Insurance, S&M, depreciation cost. Lets assume the charger is always working and available.

 

3568 x 0.67 = £2391 pounds.

 

Bargain, but how do I stop the ice cream melting in my freezer when I'm away?

 

[xman]

7 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

, due to climate change and poorish construction of the supplies of electricity

Surprised you didn't include Brexit

[lol-lol]

13 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

Model 3 Standard Range: £32.16 Per Charge

60 (battery size in kWh) x 80% = 48 kWh 

48 x 0.67 (cost in pence per kW) = £32.16

Model 3 Long Range & Performance: £44.22 Per Charge

82 x 80% = 66 kWh 

66 x 0.67 = £44.22

Model Y Standard Range: £32.16 Per Charge

60 x 80% = 48 kWh 

48 x 0.67 = £32.16

Model Y Long Range & Performance: £44.22 Per Charge

82 x 80% = 66 kWh 

66 x 0.67 = £44.22

 

 

Tesla owners who subscribe to the £10.99 per month membership will be charged around 53p per kWh to charge their car.

 

Bargain😂

 

https://www.vanarama.com/electric-leasing/cars/tesla-charging-cost-guide

 

 

No sensible person pay those rates unless one is desperate for a quick top up charge and if one does then it would just be for a few KWhs.

Company drivers might where it is going back to the company and they are reclaiming the 20% VAT presumably.

 

I did put a 67p per kWh for about 19 kWh  so it cost me £13 put a cannot imagine paying much more than that for a boost from 33% to 73% to get me home rocking along at 75 mph indicated rather than needing to drive at 60 indicated mph to do the 70 miles home.  I just have so much credit in my Octopus account from Referrals, Spin the Wheel and those pay you back ten fold sessions at tea times when I use little to no energy it is getting embarrassing how much I am in credit.  Paying £130 a month for lecky for a 4 bedroom detached house and for charging an EV during the low 9 p a kWh time period is just so economic !!

 

[Ootohere]

There are EV Charging Hubs in Scotland not yet completed or open that were EU Funded.

There are cheeky barsteward councils that not only sat years on the money but where EV Charging hubs funded by the EU are open they removed the signage saying where the money came from. 

 

2020.

No signs now though to mention funding.   Many chargers were broken when i was there earlier.

No signage locally to direct you to here or on the A90 which is less than 200 meters away to get here. 

Edited 2 March by Rooted

[Stonekeeper]

1 minute ago, lol-lol said:

 

No sensible person pay those rates unless one is desperate for a quick top up charge and if one does then it would just be for a few KWhs.

Company drivers might where it is going back to the company and they are reclaiming the 20% VAT presumably.

 

I did put a 67p per kWh for about 19 kWh  so it cost me £13 put a cannot imagine paying much more than that for a boost from 33% to 73% to get me home rocking along at 75 mph indicated rather than needing to drive at 60 indicated mph to do the 70 miles home.  I just have so much credit in my Octopus account from Referrals, Spin the Wheel and those pay you back ten fold sessions at tea times when I use little to no energy it is getting embarrassing how much I am in credit.  Paying £130 a month for lecky for a 4 bedroom detached house and for charging an EV during the low 9 p a kWh time period is just so economic !!

 

 

 

I am really pleased that it is working for you and hope the dream continues.

 

I am just concerned that once we reach 2035 and the majority are using electricity to fuel their transport the tide will turn and it will be too late for the Majority to defend themselves against energy profiteers.

 

Everyone extols the virtues of smart meters and the ability to change rates by the minute, i consider the implications when rates can be tailored to individual customers.

 

 

[lol-lol]

4 minutes ago, xman said:

Surprised you didn't include Brexit

 

Oddly BREXIT does not come in to electricity supply even though it is an item that is declared for imports and exports oddly enough, thank God zero rated for customs duties.

 

The UK trades with with France big time with electricity in real time with the flow via the Interconnectors so the UK covers their peak times and visa versa. Some other EU countries we now buy electricity off ie Denmark with its massive wind energy usage and Norway with its hydro etc, both 1.4 GW connectors.

 

Now I hear we are going to lay a interconnector to Morocco, that is one long wire, to get as much as 3.6 GWs from the sunshine soaked country.  All good and great for increasingly cheap and reliable supply.  No duty due either, yet, perhaps an attractive future revenue stream like excise duty on fuel at 58p per litre, plus VAT at 20%.  Taxing would only encourage more self micro-generation and storage of cheap time lecky.

 

2 minutes ago, Rooted said:

There are EV Charging Hubs in Scotland not yet completed or open that were EU Funded.

There are cheeky barsteward councils that not only sat years on the money but where EV Charging hubs funded by the EU are open they removed the signage saying where the money came from. 

 

Bar stewards.  

[xman]

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

Eventually avoiding having main power delivered in to the house and saving the exorbitant Standing Charge and just topping up ones electrical storage in the home battery when one fills up at a cheap TESLA or other charging network and using ones vehicle to take it home.  Effectively using the car battery, or a portable home battery like from Allpowers, Ecoflow etc and bring the power home and save having the £200 a year electricity Standing charge.       

 

8 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

No sensible person pay those rates unless one is desperate for a quick top up charge and if one does then it would just be for a few KWhs.

Company drivers might where it is going back to the company and they are reclaiming the 20% VAT presumably.

 

I did put a 67p per kWh for about 19 kWh  so it cost me £13 put a cannot imagine paying much more than that for a boost from 33% to 73% to get me home rocking along at 75 mph indicated rather than needing to drive at 60 indicated mph to do the 70 miles home.  I just have so much credit in my Octopus account from Referrals, Spin the Wheel and those pay you back ten fold sessions at tea times when I use little to no energy it is getting embarrassing how much I am in credit.  Paying £130 a month for lecky for a 4 bedroom detached house and for charging an EV during the low 9 p a kWh time period is just so economic !!

 

Make your mind up, 1st you say the benefit of V2G whatever, you can go off grid and save money (standing charge), but then you say otherwise.

 

I'll leave it at that.

[Ootohere]

I am not sensible. because i have been paying crazy prices for public charging regularly now and also paying nothing at other locations and this is working out about the same as around 50 mpg in a diesel. 

 

My new home tariff should for £7.70 or so take me 100-125 miles.

Local Council Tariff while still @ 41 pence a kWh will be just under double the price.    Then when we get to 69, 78, or 89 pence a kWh it is crazy.

Edited 2 March by Rooted

[lol-lol]

29 minutes ago, Rooted said:

I am not sensible. because i have been paying crazy prices for public charging regularly now and also paying nothing at other locations and this is working out about the same as around 50 mpg in a diesel. 

 

My new home tariff should for £7.70 or so take me 100-125 miles.

Local Council Tariff while still @ 41 pence a kWh will be just under double the price.    Then when we get to 69, 78, or 89 pence a kWh it is crazy.

 

The rate for power in the house look very good for single daily rate but the dual rates ie cheap night time rates work out much cheaper overall.

Those of us who have night time rates, usually much less than 10p per kWh use more than half of our lecky during the cheap night time rate, something like 60/40 for me but others are even better than that so may average unit per kWh was 18p per kWh.  Can do much better I think. 

 

Using my EV Zoe I reckon it cost about the same as my ICE Arkana which I have a fuel card for so fuel cost around 30p a litre and a litre takes me about 12 miles so both are around 

2.5p per mile energy costs but next week and next month changes, after the Budget and energy cap changes the difference is likely to be pronounced as lecky running costs get back down towards 2 p mile and fuel costs might go up a few percent in the budget but also the frozen personal allowances increasingly push things in to the higher rates of tax so fuel might start costing be 60p a litre unless a do even more tax avoidance, which I will probably so as I am close to retirement and should lob money in to pension and draw it out next year avoiding income tax and NI, only logical.

 

Any reason you are not going to multi-rate tariff, time shifting that difficult to do George ?

  

[Graham Butcher]

I'm reading all of this stuff about charging rates, standing charges, running cables across lawns etc to their neighbours cars etc and can't help but think that it is all sounding just too idyllic and nobody has stopped to actually consider the other side of the coin so to speak.

 

Surely nobody is that naive to think that the supply authorities and the government are going to allow the ducking of standing charges and high KWH charges, do they? If people go for this V2H and V2G I can see changes being introduced to make sure that any advantage is rapidly wiped out or diminished to such an extent that the extra inconvenience of all the fluffing about plugging in etc will become less attractive that many will just will not bother about doing it, don't forget we are not called "Rip off Britain" for nothing.

 

This idea of plugging in a "Granny Cable" which I take is yet another term for an extension cable is also fraught with problems in its own right, it needs to maintain its protection against water ingress, as well as condensation from frost or snow causing internal damage to the connections. Also the cable would add further resistance into the cable causing temperature rise in the cable and also a possible fire hazard and a reduction in current carrying capacity.

 

Once people are converted over to electric, you are then in the hands of profiteers and even if you have solar and or wind generators, there will be times when they are not producing sufficient power if indeed any at all, and I would fully expect that new laws would be passed that require a meter to be installed in every building, regardless if you used any power from the grid, and then a standing charge would be applicable.

[lol-lol]

42 minutes ago, xman said:

 

Make your mind up, 1st you say the benefit of V2G whatever, you can go off grid and save money (standing charge), but then you say otherwise.

 

I'll leave it at that.

 

It is an evolving story.  Standing charges being much higher has not hit yet.  Octopus say they will continue with a 4% discount on those standing charges.

 

I have not got enough solar panels yet, prices are plummeting and certainly plan to get another half dozen or dozen in the next few weeks, prices might fall further and will wait for the Equilux on March 17th.  Waiting for better solar panels ie with efficiency two to three times current should occur in the next year or two.

 

Battery storage costs falling quickly to so need to complete y current 5 kWh storage and need to get up to the `12 to 24 kWh mark.

 

My EV is not V2G and it is lithium ion rather than LFP so not suited to using as a power bank.  New Renault 5 looks good for that but that will not be produced in RHD until next year.

Sad fast of being not one of those EU countries that drive on the right and get cheaper cars that get to market first.  Left is right and right is wrong.