Ukraine - war ? UK only economic sanctions or military action too ? Is the Ukraine issue simple or complex ?

[@Lee]

It's awful news, Mark. I'm clinging on to the hope that ordinary Russians who hate Putin can see the reality. And also the hope that his Generals and Oligarchs who fund him will remove him by force. Or just shoot the ****er in the face.

[@Lee]

This is totally irresponsible from Liz Truss. All the 'have-a-go-heroes' whose only experience of war is playing COD on their Playstations will want to join in. . That'll endanger not only themselves but those they're alongside and do more to hamper things.

Quote

Foreign Secretary Liz Truss has said she supports individuals from the UK who might want to go to Ukraine to join an international force to fight.

She told the BBC it was up to people to make their own decisions, but argued it was a battle "for democracy".

She said Ukrainians were fighting for freedom, "not just for Ukraine but for the whole of Europe".

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-60544838

Edited 27 February, 2022 by @Lee

[@Lee]

Signs of another massive shift in Germany's policy? 
 

 

[cheezemonkhai]

I thought that might happen, purely because renewables are not there yet.

 

The fact that’s happening with the greens in coalition tells a lot about how serious a problem this is.

 

I think that the UK, France and the US will do well to make sure their armed forces are seriously upgraded and with some decent funding. Particularly so with getting vanguard upgraded/replaced ASAP.

Edited 27 February, 2022 by cheezemonkhai

[skomaz]

6 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

UK government and other European governments now have a whole bucket full of excuse and reasons why inflation goes even more out of control, that the chancellor can say people should accept low wage rises so as the UK and others can send the very expensive military equipment to Ukraine and put orders in for whole new batches of military equipment.   

 

In wars everyone loses except military companies and those who use the events to cover up their peacetime failings.

   

 

Eh?...   So now you are using the situation in Ukraine and sanctions to have a political dig at the Government re inflation and wage increases???...   Absolutely unbelievable ! 

[skomaz]

5 hours ago, @Lee said:

It's awful news, Mark. I'm clinging on to the hope that ordinary Russians who hate Putin can see the reality. And also the hope that his Generals and Oligarchs who fund him will remove him by force. Or just shoot the ****er in the face.

 

Bang on Lee...   I really do think that might be the way out of all of this...   But then having seen some of the Russian mps being interviewed they seem of the same mindset as put in, almost like they've been brainwashed...   So my worry would be the risk of  a replacement just as bad or worse. 

[AnnoyingPentium]

25 minutes ago, skomaz said:

But then having seen some of the Russian mps being interviewed they seem of the same mindset as put in, almost like they've been brainwashed...

 

Chances are they'll have been threatened in some way. If one steps out of line then you know they'll have "fallen" down the stairs of their bungalow.

[@Lee]

Wrong thread, my bad 😬

 

Edited 27 February, 2022 by @Lee

[@Lee]

4 hours ago, skomaz said:

 

Eh?...   So now you are using the situation in Ukraine and sanctions to have a political dig at the Government re inflation and wage increases???...   Absolutely unbelievable ! 

I guess you missed the part where he said 'and other European Governments'.

 

You seem to take any criticism of the UK Government almost as if it's a personal attack on yourself which in itself is very telling.

 

Here's an idea; play the ball not the man. 

 

Or just leave this topic rather than just pop in to have a dig at people.

[@Lee]

I've just finished watching a three part documentary on All4 about Putin.

The last episode is quite an eye opener.

 

If you haven't been following events since 2014 and two important elections in 2016 that is 

[cheezemonkhai]

And let’s take a moment to accept maybe people have misunderstood previous posts or they have perhaps been made somewhat carelessly.

 

I think we’re all mostly on the same page, so I think we can stop the tit for tat replies on all sides.

Edited 28 February, 2022 by cheezemonkhai

[WolfyWesty]

Hopefully some good news emerging this morning:

 

"Posted at 9:139:13

Ukraine officials arrive for Russia peace talks

Abdujalil Abdurasulov

BBC News, reporting from Kyiv

Ukrainian authorities have announced that their delegation has arrived at the Ukraine-Belarus border to start peace talks with the Russian delegation.

The main issue on their agenda, they say, is a ceasefire and withdrawal of troops from the Ukrainian territory."

 

Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60542877

[@Lee]

Rouble's collapsing and oil and gold prices are up. The other week in the "cost of living crisis" topic, 'hyperinflation' was mentioned. Looks like this will happen for real in Russia. 
From 07:31 
https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2022/feb/28/oil-gold-prices-jump-russian-central-bank-hikes-rates-rouble-plummets-business-live

 

Edited 28 February, 2022 by @Lee

[AnnoyingPentium]

Think that shows that Putin is basically destroying his own country just to big up himself really.

[skomaz]

15 minutes ago, AnnoyingPentium said:

Think that shows that Putin is basically destroying his own country just to big up himself really.

 

Unfortunately it is fast becoming a war which, in his mind, he HAS to win, whatever the cost, to save face...   which is intensely worrying for the rest of the world given his apparent state of mind...

[@Lee]

Quote

Fuel prices have hit record highs in the UK as Russia's invasion of Ukraine continues to affect global oil prices.

The RAC said the average price of petrol jumped to £1.51 a litre on Sunday, while diesel increased to £1.55.

The price of both fuels has jumped since Thursday, when Russia began its assault on Ukraine.

RAC fuel spokesman Simon Williams said despite oil prices calming, prices at the pump will continue to rise.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-60554128

[lol-lol]

1 hour ago, @Lee said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-60554128

 

Oil price calming ?

Is this the US choosing to release some strategic reserves I guess ?

What is needed is Excise duty to be dropped somewhat or even the VAT on UK fuel being dropped, UK government is making a financial killing out of the Ukrainian crisis, now up to 26p a litre on the fuel for the VAT component plus 58p per litre for the Excise Duty, which VAT is charged on the Excise Duty ie tax on tax !

 

With BP about to lose its $25B Rosneft investment and reserves, which represent a third of its reserves.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/britains-bp-says-exit-stake-russian-oil-giant-rosneft-2022-02-27/

Certainly going to be painful for stock market and pension funds in the time of the cost of living crisis. 

 

Going to be a very expensive war to be involved in with a huge personal price to most people.  Petrol and Diesel now both over £1.50 a litre.

 

The $55 Billion Power of Siberia pipeline is now own and can earn Russia massive amounts of revenue upon supply China and presumably more LPG out of Vladivostok as Russia increases it LPG production above what the Amur plant can currently produces. 

 

We may be shivering in Europe whilst The Far East gets the gas we use to get.  We better get in to more alternative energy and quickly !

 

 

 

 

[Breezy_Pete]

For someone as clueless as myself politically and historically this was useful, though lengthy.  Written by a former UK ambassador in Kyiv.

Russia-Ukraine war explainer (rleighturner.com)

 

[Tilt]

I think the so called Peace talks is just the Impaler hoping that he / they can take out Volodymyr if he attends........

 

I don't think they have (he has) any intention of peace.

 

And I just hope that the weapons that are being sent have some kind of self destruct technology otherwise they will just end up in the wrong hands should the worst come to the worst.

 

I'm with @skomazand others, and hope that someone takes him out. Probably have to shoot themselves afterwards. 

[cheezemonkhai]

If we don’t get gas and have to migrate our economy away from oil to renewables, hydrogen and a bit of nuclear base load, it’s not such a bad thing.

 

Would cost short term, but help massively long term. Partly in reduced pollution and partly I’m not letting oil rich countries bend us over if they feel like it.

Edited 28 February, 2022 by cheezemonkhai

[Ootohere]

You need gas to move oil through pipelines. Then you need gas at oil refineries to produce all kinds of petrochemicals.  Then you need different gasses for the production processes.     Gas for heating is one thing but gas for industry is something major.   If nuclear was all that was needed for electricity and electricity was all that was needed to provide hydrogen life would be simple.  Ammonia needs producing as well.    Russia provides lots of fertiliser that someplace else will need to now. 

[cheezemonkhai]

5 minutes ago, roottoot said:

You need gas to move oil through pipelines. Then you need gas at oil refineries to produce all kinds of petrochemicals.  Then you need different gasses for the production processes.     Gas for heating is one thing but gas for industry is something major.   If nuclear was all that was needed for electricity and electricity was all that was needed to provide hydrogen life would be simple.  Ammonia needs producing as well.    Russia provides lots of fertiliser that someplace else will need to now. 

 

Understood, but there are pretty abundant sources of ammonia if you change your way of thinking and admittedly make some hard choices.

 

We in Europe and the West as a whole keep plenty of livestock, who combined with the population produce plenty of urine.

Urine contains Urea which can be reformed (surprisingly easily) into Ammonia. In fact ammonia can actually be an environmental problem.

 

https://www.hemmaodlat.se/research/citrullus lanatus seeds as a urine catalyst for anthroponic use.pdf

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urease

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia_volatilization_from_urea

 

Not saying it is simple and not saying it won't hurt of take time, but we can definately stop burning the stuff pretty quickly.

 

As for all sorts of gases, yes, but again just because using oil is currently the most cost effective way of making things doesn't mean that will continue.

There are usually many many ways to skin a cat and whilst fossile fuel bases might work now, you can also make many things from vegetable oils and other processes.

 

Not perfect, and no you are not wrong, but let's be honest this move needs to start now anyway.

[Ootohere]

You do not produce fertiliser without natural gas.  I do not mean natural fertiliser.      You only get vegetable oil by growing crops, to grow crops you need fertiliser.  To power machinery you need fuel, maybe not diesel oil, use Ethanol and to get Ethanol you need to grow crops.     Many ways to skin a cat but the various ways are all being used but oil and gas is important.   Nobody is going back killing whales for oil as happened to have the Industrial revolution.   The cod oil required ships, as does krill and other fishing, that needs marine oil.  The. There is the Co2 that we get and need from other production processes.  Electricity is not the biggest requirement now or in the future.     Ps.  Those animals need feeding, that requires growing crops. 

Edited 28 February, 2022 by roottoot

[cheezemonkhai]

1 minute ago, roottoot said:

You do not produce fertiliser without natural gas.  I do not mean natural fertiliser. 

 

You don't currently but you can.

 

https://www.cffertilisers.co.uk/about-us/how-our-fertiliser-is-made/

 

This is the natural gas process where they use hydrogen from natural gas (Split off at quite an energy cost), then introduce air to provide nitrogen, which produces Ammonia (NH3).

 

So rather than cracking natural gas (Methane) to make Hydrogen, then adding air over a catalyst to make Ammonia, you could just use urine to make ammonia, then feed that into the process and continue minus the natural gas stage of the above process.

 

Quote

 

React that with water

 

Quote

 

If you look at where that gets you, it's exactly the same place as the end of the CF process.

 

Like I said, it's all chemistry, it's just that oil was the easiest place to get it from, but it might not be going forward.

Why pay for oil, when we have plenty of urine 😂

[Ootohere]

You seem my full of it.  Wind and water.  Power your home if you can. 

Edited 28 February, 2022 by roottoot